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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[ ] Plan While Yorri is Here
-[ ] Refuse the Heart: Allow the King of the Skies to consume it. Gain standing with the Skarrenraz Ankor and KoTS. ???
-[ ] Prod for Prod: Master Yorri is most certainly more learned and experienced than you are, but mayhaps you have something worth his time as well? The secrets of the Rune Metal Adamant, your discovery of flaming comets? [Cost: 1 action] 1 action
-[ ] [Simple] Warded Aeries: The Griffons of the Skarrenraz Ankor suffered terribly defending the skies of your hold. The decade-long siege has seen many an oath of friendship sworn between your folk and theirs. An entire generation of "Clutchlings" as they are called, has been raised alongside your own youth safely within the halls of the Karak. Their nests are high above the world, but they are ill-suited to protecting them from that which can fly as well. Rectify this, at least for the roost in Kraka Drakk, and aid in Otrek's work to repay these odd but dependable allies. [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 actions (procs for a 3rd)
-[ ] Diction Direction: Master Yorri's Rune of Translation is serviceable, but it's in a position that you can very clearly see areas for improvement. This would certainly be easier if you knew Master Yorri was right now, but you have the Rune and seven centuries under your belt, so it's not an insurmountable challenge for a Runelord. [Cost: (6 -4) =2 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
--[ ] Prod Yorri: He discovered the damn thing, maybe he has more insights?[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1 Progress
-[ ] The Secrets of Light?: That moment with the shield and sunray, the light of your torch glinting off the crystal, both sparked something in your mind. An ember that refused to be burned out. You've done permutations to the standard Rune of Light and a few on Master Yorri's Rune of Reflection, but maybe there could be more? [Cost: (8 -2) =6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
--[ ] Prod Yorri: Master Yorri may have some knowledge he'd be willing to share.[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 +1 Progress


One thing of note is that we can kind of spread out research and use prods to get a good amount of progress. 1 action +1 prod finishes the improvement to translation rune which is helpful. For secrets of lights we bring it down to 4-1d3 with 1 action and a prod that puts it into easy completion range. Prod for Prod lets Master Yorri produce his own adamant for use and he can accomplish all sort of great things with that upgrade. And the big thing is Yorri is on a roll each turn to leave, we want to take advantage of him being here while we can. Lastly warded aeries overflows by 1 and works towards repaying the griffons (which we should do over time not all at once!)
 
Coming in late but holy crap inlovebthis quest in no small part because I grew up in mercedes Lackey's work and...THE BLACK GRIFFON FLIES AGAIN!

Overall I am amazed at how things have changed from a lack of Chaos Dwarves to Kraka Drak getting actually connected to the Underway and how much "Defense! In! Depth!" Has helped the hold and even the whole of Karaz Ankor.

@soulcake do the griffons just have members on permanent Dolgi watch by now? He just keeps getting bad rolls and getting in over his head.

For the situation overall, I support the idea of us giving the heart to the KotS, as it is OP posted confirmed a non corrupting item and would help the griphons as a whole.

We should keep the heart of the Greedy one tho...or cut off enough chunks to to equal one heart but we put a lot of research into it and we cant be sure it will have the same effect on the KotS.

For the rest I have to say the appeal of a super healing banner appeals to me more than a super Golem because the Super Golem can break, and it would only be able to be in one place at a time. But a banner able to power borderline regenerative healing would not only save dwarf lives but also help the griphons too.

As for current plans idk...feel like we dhould take advantage of Yorri and Morgrim's mutual presence as much as possible.
 
Not using Yorri to help us with research seems like a huge waste to me. He can help knockoff so many actions in research and it's turn limited he could leave after this turn. Thus I will vote for any plan that focuses on research this turn.
 
Not using Yorri to help us with research seems like a huge waste to me. He can help knockoff so many actions in research and it's turn limited he could leave after this turn. Thus I will vote for any plan that focuses on research this turn.
Dont forgot the prod for prod action where we teach Yorri how to make adamant. Just imagine what he can get up to in his own time with that knowledge
 
Also I remembered an old meme saying and the seige gave me the perfect way to alter it.

>The Chaos Gods Are In Their Warp Because Their Afraid Of Our Superior Fortifications.
 
Why not take Yorri´s Odd places? The +15 bonus that it would give us is incredibly useful, it would give us a significant bonus for the quality of whatvere we find, not just save some actions...

Plus a 10 year buddy road trip with Yorri would be an absolute delight to read!!!
"Hi. I'm your local Runelord. I'm going on roadtrip with my old master, drinking ale and cooking Troll. Meanwhile the rest of the hold is busy rebuilding the hold and paying back our debt to our allies."
 
Real question, is anyone else just getting sick of the Griffins? It seriously feels like they are getting a ridiculous amount of focus and people obsessing over them constantly. Seriously, I get that they seriously helped us and that we owe them a debt but it's honestly getting annoying how much focus they are getting. I mean we have had people going on and on about the Sky Kings armor and people pushing to make it as good as possible to an unreasoanble degree even before they helped us with Kholek. It got ridiculous to the point that people wanted to give a Tier 5 mat to the Griffon to snack on which is freaking ridiculous in that it is a one of a kind item and people were still talking about giving it to him along with Kholek's heart even when it's outright pointed out that it likely won't even do anything for him anymore.

And now when we have a chance to speed up our research with Yorri and people instead want to spend all our actions on the Griffins even when we only have Yorri for this turn and he is likely to leave. Seriously, we can help them next turn or at least do 1 action this turn instead of wasting our chance with Yorri.

And before people say anything people have mentioned that they were sick of constantly hearing about talks about either the super Gronti or what to do with the heart so seems like people should get where I am coming from with this.
 
Yea, I'm all for letting KoTS eat Kolek's heart. The irony is just wonderful, and getting him and all the other griffons one last big change before their...form or whatever is set is worth much more to me than making something out of the heart.
 
Also, did Grimnir die? Or is he up there fighting at the portal? Unsure what happened there.

Essentially Grimnir exists in some kind of schrodinger state. Or well, kind of. Right now we know he's alive, because the tide of daemon shits has dropped severely. But in the warp time is mutable, somewhat, so Grimnir will fight for an eternity. He's either going to die and the world gets overrun with daemon shits (probably end times) or he's going to keep fighting and eventually he'd of truly killed enough daemon shits the gods are weakened enough for Grimnir to kill them.

So the Grimnir parable. Either he dies and the world ends. Or he's in a stalemate against unlimited enemies (as he is now). Or he wins and comes back through the chaos gate and everyone but the greenskins and skaven live happily ever after.
 
Real question, is anyone else just getting sick of the Griffins? It seriously feels like they are getting a ridiculous amount of focus and people obsessing over them constantly. Seriously, I get that they seriously helped us and that we owe them a debt but it's honestly getting annoying how much focus they are getting. I mean we have had people going on and on about the Sky Kings armor and people pushing to make it as good as possible to an unreasoanble degree even before they helped us with Kholek. It got ridiculous to the point that people wanted to give a Tier 5 mat to the Griffon to snack on which is freaking ridiculous in that it is a one of a kind item and people were still talking about giving it to him along with Kholek's heart even when it's outright pointed out that it likely won't even do anything for him anymore.

And now when we have a chance to speed up our research with Yorri and people instead want to spend all our actions on the Griffins even when we only have Yorri for this turn and he is likely to leave. Seriously, we can help them next turn or at least do 1 action this turn instead of wasting our chance with Yorri.

And before people say anything people have mentioned that they were sick of constantly hearing about talks about either the super Gronti or what to do with the heart so seems like people should get where I am coming from with this.
Partly, there seems to be a tendency to obsess over the newest thing and through all focus into it. Personally I want to do the warded aeries this turn as that will help their pop numbers recover quicker and since they are allies they help with the fighting. But throwing every other action at the griffons is extremely counterproductive.
 
"Hi. I'm your local Runelord. I'm going on roadtrip with my old master, drinking ale and cooking Troll. Meanwhile the rest of the hold is busy rebuilding the hold and paying back our debt to our allies."
Yes, and what?

The incursion is over, there won´t be anything as dangerous on the horizon for centuries and we are a Hero who created the bolt that slayed the fucker and that was fighting in the first line alongside everyone else... Snorri has done more than enough by anyone´s estimations.

NO ONE IN THE WHOLE HOLD, DWARF OR GRIFFIN ALIKE, IS GOING TO CARE IF WE TAKE A TURN TRAVELING WITH OUR OLD MASTER!!!
 
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For both, I will add the Boon for a Boon if it's confirmed we don't have to design it immediately

[] Plan Progress, Progress Everywhere!
[ ] Refuse the Heart: Allow the King of the Skies to consume it. Gain standing with the Skarrenraz Ankor and KoTS. ???
-[] Boon from the Sky: A bundle of your crest feathers. [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:]

[ ] Dragon Ogre Autopsy: You've found yourself with a bevy of corpses to study. Dragon Ogres aren't an unknown foe, but you've never been privy to the results of the few limited autopsies done in the long history of your people. [Cost: 6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
- [ ] Destructive Research: You have very many corpses. Being a bit more invasive in your understanding will mean more work gets done, but will cost you. [Cost: 3 Shaggoth Corpses, 9 Dragon Ogre Corpses] Gain 2 Progress, can be taken multiple times. x2
- [ ] Prod Yorri: See if your master has something in his noggin, he spent a decade fighting these things. [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 of progress. x1
[ ] The Movement of things: The Rune of Waking or Animation as some would call it is a rare rune. How Master Yorri knows both the regular and Master Rune could be explained by either a harrowing adventure full of terror, beasties and treasure or by something as mundane as asking a friend, you could never be sure with the man. Still, this was a rune that, to your frustration, you haven't had much chance to tinker with. Maybe just a peak? [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
- [ ] Prod Yorri: Master Yorri, by his own account, has a good idea about how gronti and their ilk function.[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 Progress, can be taken multiple times. x3
[ ] [Simple] Warded Aeries: The Griffons of the Skarrenraz Ankor suffered terribly defending the skies of your hold. The decade-long siege has seen many an oath of friendship sworn between your folk and theirs. An entire generation of "Clutchlings" as they are called, has been raised alongside your own youth safely within the halls of the Karak. Their nests are high above the world, but they are ill-suited to protecting them from that which can fly as well. Rectify this, at least for the roost in Kraka Drakk, and aid in Otrek's work to repay these odd but dependable allies. [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 actions

This gets the warding of the roosts, their HOMES, done first and with overwork.

Meanwhile, Dragon Ogres are too important as materials, especially given we have Shaggoths and Kholek (who will hopefully have at least one more T5 reagent, perhaps his brain), especially for use in the armor of the King of the Sky and his sons.

Now, there is a CHANCE that we don't complete The Movement of Things this turn, but all it takes is a single 2 on a d2, and we're rolling three of them. I like those odds.

For those who want even more research, but still want to help the Griffons:


[] Plan So much Grimnir-Damned Progress
[ ] Refuse the Heart: Allow the King of the Skies to consume it. Gain standing with the Skarrenraz Ankor and KoTS. ???
-[] Boon from the Sky: A bundle of your crest feathers. [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:]
[ ] Dragon Ogre Autopsy: You've found yourself with a bevy of corpses to study. Dragon Ogres aren't an unknown foe, but you've never been privy to the results of the few limited autopsies done in the long history of your people. [Cost: 6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
- [ ] Destructive Research: You have very many corpses. Being a bit more invasive in your understanding will mean more work gets done, but will cost you. [Cost: 3 Shaggoth Corpses, 9 Dragon Ogre Corpses] Gain 2 Progress, can be taken multiple times. x2
[ ] The Secrets of Light?: That moment with the shield and sunray, the light of your torch glinting off the crystal, both sparked something in your mind. An ember that refused to be burned out. You've done permutations to the standard Rune of Light and a few on Master Yorri's Rune of Reflection, but maybe there could be more? [Cost: (8 -2) =6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action

[ ] The Movement of things: The Rune of Waking or Animation as some would call it is a rare rune. How Master Yorri knows both the regular and Master Rune could be explained by either a harrowing adventure full of terror, beasties and treasure or by something as mundane as asking a friend, you could never be sure with the man. Still, this was a rune that, to your frustration, you haven't had much chance to tinker with. Maybe just a peak? [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
- [ ] Prod Yorri: Master Yorri, by his own account, has a good idea about how gronti and their ilk function.[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 Progress, can be taken multiple times. x3
[ ] [Simple] Weaponized Wings: You can't arm the Griffons of the Skarrenraz Ankor with Gromril, while lesser in population than the hold they make up for it in sheer bulk that needs to be protected. What you can do, however, is take part in King Otrek's efforts to arm them with Runic weaponry and good solid steel armour. It will mostly consist of you spending time fitting a few select Griffons, likely the eldest and most powerful given your position, with Rune weapons and maybe a suit of Gromril armour if they're important enough. [Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 1 action
-[ ] Diction Direction: Master Yorri's Rune of Translation is serviceable, but it's in a position that you can very clearly see areas for improvement. This would certainly be easier if you knew Master Yorri was right now, but you have the Rune and seven centuries under your belt, so it's not an insurmountable challenge for a Runelord. [Cost: (6 -4) =2 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
--[ ] Prod Yorri: He discovered the damn thing, maybe he has more insights?[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1 Progress

Yes, I've changed my mind. I've said I'm open minded, and given that not only is Yorri around to SERIOUSLY expedite things, along with the possibility, however minute, of attracting MORGRIM'S attention...


The idea is making a Grimnir Slayer based one called Remembrance, referring to what Grimnir told us to remember, that we remember it, and that all Dawi must remember why he sacrificed as he did. Now that we have the Master Rune of Grimnir we could probably make a Grimnir combo of combos in it if Fortitude and Rune of Grimnir (a lesser for of MGrimnir) combo as a I hope with a Heart powered Awakening.




And finally, for those who want to get a head start on the armor of the King of the Sky:

[] Plan Lightning Warriors
-[ ] Refuse the Heart: Allow the King of the Skies to consume it. Gain standing with the Skarrenraz Ankor and KoTS. ???
-[] Boon from the Sky: A bundle of your crest feathers. [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:]
-[ ] Dragon Ogre Autopsy: You've found yourself with a bevy of corpses to study. Dragon Ogres aren't an unknown foe, but you've never been privy to the results of the few limited autopsies done in the long history of your people. [Cost: 6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
-- [ ] Destructive Research: You have very many corpses. Being a bit more invasive in your understanding will mean more work gets done, but will cost you. [Cost: 3 Shaggoth Corpses, 9 Dragon Ogre Corpses] Gain 2 Progress, can be taken multiple times. x2


-[ ] The Movement of things: The Rune of Waking or Animation as some would call it is a rare rune. How Master Yorri knows both the regular and Master Rune could be explained by either a harrowing adventure full of terror, beasties and treasure or by something as mundane as asking a friend, you could never be sure with the man. Still, this was a rune that, to your frustration, you haven't had much chance to tinker with. Maybe just a peak? [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
-- [ ] Prod Yorri: Master Yorri, by his own account, has a good idea about how gronti and their ilk function.[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 Progress, can be taken multiple times. x3
-[ ] [Simple] Weaponized Wings: You can't arm the Griffons of the Skarrenraz Ankor with Gromril, while lesser in population than the hold they make up for it in sheer bulk that needs to be protected. What you can do, however, is take part in King Otrek's efforts to arm them with Runic weaponry and good solid steel armour. It will mostly consist of you spending time fitting a few select Griffons, likely the eldest and most powerful given your position, with Rune weapons and maybe a suit of Gromril armour if they're important enough. [Cost: 1 action] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 1 action
-[ ] Diction Direction: Master Yorri's Rune of Translation is serviceable, but it's in a position that you can very clearly see areas for improvement. This would certainly be easier if you knew Master Yorri was right now, but you have the Rune and seven centuries under your belt, so it's not an insurmountable challenge for a Runelord. [Cost: (6 -4) =2 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
--[ ] Prod Yorri: He discovered the damn thing, maybe he has more insights?[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1 Progress
-[] C-c-combo Tester!: Write-in format for a Rune Combo you want Snorri to test. Format is as follows: [Placeholder Combo Name] Equipment type: [Rune 1, Rune 2, Rune 3] [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. 1 actions.
--[] Master of Storms, Armor: Master Rune of Steel, Rune of Lightning, Rune of Cold
 
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[] Plan: Location Dump
-[ ] Refuse the Heart: Allow the King of the Skies to consume it. Gain standing with the Skarrenraz Ankor and KoTS. ???

-[ ] Odd Places 5/10: Look on Master Yorri's map and try and discover one of his marked locations. The locations will certainly be odd, but whether they'll be useful will remain to be seen. [Cost: 1 action] Roll for usefulness.
--[] Assign 5 Actions
---[] Prod Yorri: Master Yorri probably knows a few things and secrets. Given he found these parts in the first place. [Cost: 1 prod] Gain +15 to Odd Places Roll
----[] Prod Yorri x4

Why not clear out the location search now?
 
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For the rest I have to say the appeal of a super healing banner appeals to me more than a super Golem because the Super Golem can break, and it would only be able to be in one place at a time. But a banner able to power borderline regenerative healing would not only save dwarf lives but also help the griphons too.

As for current plans idk...feel like we dhould take advantage of Yorri and Morgrim's mutual presence as much as possible.
Going to point out that that pretty much applies to anything we make and it's been pointed out that a super healing banner would likely be a big target on the battlefield. Not to mention that we can literally use T4 items to make the banner instead. Also if we make the Super Gronti out of pure Gromril it breaking it likely going to be next to impossible, especially with the heart.
 
Plan: Maximum Yorri
[] Refuse the Heart:
[] Prod for Prod:
[] Dragon Ogre Autopsy
- [] Destructive Research:
- [] Prod Yorri
[] The Secrets of Light?
- [] Prod Yorri
[] Hearthstones
- [] Prod Yorri
[] The Movement of things:
- [] Prod Yorri x4

So, this plan is designed to maximize the possible research progress we gain from Yorri prods. With this, we will gain a minimum of

Dragon Ogre (1act+2des+1prod) + Secrets of Light (1act+1prod) + Hearthstones (1 act + 2prod) + Movement (1 act + 8prod)

18 progress for five actions, and a maximum of

(1act+2des+3prod) + Secrets of Light (1act+ 4prod) + Hearthstones (1 act + 2prod) + Movement (1 act + 12prod)

27 progress for five actions.

Yes, I know that Movement is getting ridiculous overflow, but it's the only place we can sink multiple Yorri prods - we're limited by our actions.

Hopefully research overflow helps like production overflow.
 
Meanwhile, Dragon Ogres are too important as materials, especially given we have Shaggoths and Kholek (who will hopefully have at least one more T5 reagent, perhaps his brain),
I'd put money on that. Dragon Ogres are aware of the world around them in their sleep. I'll see if I can dig up the quote.
 
For both, I will add the Boon for a Boon if it's confirmed we don't have to design it immediately

[] Plan Progress, Progress Everywhere!



[] Plan So much Grimnir-Damned Progress
Why no prod for prod? Teaching Yorri how to make adamant would seem to be a big boost and may make him more inclined to stay out of a sense of debt for what we teach him until he can teach us in turn giving us a good chance at a 2nd turn of having Yorri around.

Just imagine what our master could get up to with a slow but steady supply of adamant. And this is one way we can keep knowledge going as well.
 
Partly, there seems to be a tendency to obsess over the newest thing and through all focus into it. Personally I want to do the warded aeries this turn as that will help their pop numbers recover quicker and since they are allies they help with the fighting. But throwing every other action at the griffons is extremely counterproductive.
Thing is that people seemed to have been obsessing over the Griffons for ages which is the problem.

On the warded aeries how do people feel about putting in one single action for this turn and then using two actions next? Doing so means that we can most take advantage of research and the extra action means that aeries get extra overflow.
 
Why no prod for prod? Teaching Yorri how to make adamant would seem to be a big boost and may make him more inclined to stay out of a sense of debt for what we teach him until he can teach us in turn giving us a good chance at a 2nd turn of having Yorri around.

Just imagine what our master could get up to with a slow but steady supply of adamant. And this is one way we can keep knowledge going as well.
Because we can't make use of it and get immediate results, which I am very fond of and which are integral to making immediate use of the Dragon Ogre parts and people actually DOING the damn heart powered Gronti. Especially with Morgrim hanging around for what probably isn't very long.
 
Real question, is anyone else just getting sick of the Griffins? It seriously feels like they are getting a ridiculous amount of focus and people obsessing over them constantly. Seriously, I get that they seriously helped us and that we owe them a debt but it's honestly getting annoying how much focus they are getting. I mean we have had people going on and on about the Sky Kings armor and people pushing to make it as good as possible to an unreasoanble degree even before they helped us with Kholek. It got ridiculous to the point that people wanted to give a Tier 5 mat to the Griffon to snack on which is freaking ridiculous in that it is a one of a kind item and people were still talking about giving it to him along with Kholek's heart even when it's outright pointed out that it likely won't even do anything for him anymore.

And now when we have a chance to speed up our research with Yorri and people instead want to spend all our actions on the Griffins even when we only have Yorri for this turn and he is likely to leave. Seriously, we can help them next turn or at least do 1 action this turn instead of wasting our chance with Yorri.

And before people say anything people have mentioned that they were sick of constantly hearing about talks about either the super Gronti or what to do with the heart so seems like people should get where I am coming from with this.
Two Nat 50's from KotS and that kept our walls up, iifc, and they had the biggest combat modifier against the Suneater.


I've not actually looked at the proposed plans yet, but my measurements will go like this:

-> AP efficiency with Yorri doing things I'm interested in
-> Offering a T5 mat (Greedy Heart) now to help the entire people that keeps Drogi alive, and in return for that, KotS owes us a T5 mat in the future (if allowed by Soulcake)
-> Helping rebuild and make nests for children of any species, griffon and dwarf.

But very much so, my focus this turn is on getting the most we can out of our teacher in therms of AP. I've just not looked at the plans that do that, and talking about griffons is, well, cool.
 
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