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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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News to me, I was told it was paranoia to think that they could even be attacked.

It isn't.

It is however paranoia to think that the only way the siege-engines will survive if we are there (mind, I voted for staying).

The Siege-Engines will be located a significant distance behind the walls (whether on another set of walls or somewhere else), walls which are guarded by a bloodlusted and super-powered, gromril-clad and rune-armed, Dwarf Throng which is unbreakable and tireless to boot.

Penetrating those defenses is an achievement by itself.

Even after managing that, the prospective "commando" daemons have to endure the Sky Griffon interdiction and the siege-engine focus fire (with possible participation of Sky Princes).

And after that, the daemons will have to challenge the Huskarls (Ironbreaker-equivalent) and Master Runesmiths (hero-level characters) standing watch over the Dragon's Spite, a collection of (pure) gromril-armoured elite warriors centuries old and with experience fighting daemons and the ancient magic-dispellers that daemons least (other than runelords) like to see in an opposing army.
Oh yes, and all are umbreakable, tireless and augmented by the Ancestor Aegis Banner.

That's not a cakewalk. Chaos will need to send a Greater Daemon. Actually, maybe multiple ones to do this.
 
Even after managing that, the prospective "commando" daemons have to endure the Sky Griffon interdiction and the siege-engine focus fire (with possible participation of Sky Princes).

And after that, the daemons will have to challenge the Huskarls (Ironbreaker-equivalent) and Master Runesmiths (hero-level characters) standing watch over the Dragon's Spite, a collection of (pure) gromril-armoured elite warriors centuries old and with experience fighting daemons and the ancient magic-dispellers that daemons least (other than runelords) like to see in an opposing army.
Oh yes, and all are unbreakable, tireless and augmented by the Ancestor Aegis Banner.
You forgot to add that they're angry, grudge carrying dwarfs that know exactly whom the bolt is meant for.
 
It isn't.

It is however paranoia to think that the only way the siege-engines will survive if we are there (mind, I voted for staying).

The Siege-Engines will be located a significant distance behind the walls (whether on another set of walls or somewhere else), walls which are guarded by a bloodlusted and super-powered, gromril-clad and rune-armed, Dwarf Throng which is unbreakable and tireless to boot.

Penetrating those defenses is an achievement by itself.

Even after managing that, the prospective "commando" daemons have to endure the Sky Griffon interdiction and the siege-engine focus fire (with possible participation of Sky Princes).

And after that, the daemons will have to challenge the Huskarls (Ironbreaker-equivalent) and Master Runesmiths (hero-level characters) standing watch over the Dragon's Spite, a collection of (pure) gromril-armoured elite warriors centuries old and with experience fighting daemons and the ancient magic-dispellers that daemons least (other than runelords) like to see in an opposing army.
Oh yes, and all are umbreakable, tireless and augmented by the Ancestor Aegis Banner.

That's not a cakewalk. Chaos will need to send a Greater Daemon. Actually, maybe multiple ones to do this.
You forgot to add that they're angry, grudge carrying dwarfs that know exactly whom the bolt is meant for.
All this under the magic NO! daemon burning aegis of the Silver Wyrm Banner.
 
[Semi Canon???]: Foes of the Dragonhold, +15 to an RER [USED]
OOC: This has been in my head for a while, so I decided to make an omake about the various enemies of Kraka Drakk might have in "modern" Warhammer. Note that I'm assuming that we do kill Kholek, since if we don't, well, everyone in Kraka Drakk will probably be dead.
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Foes of the Dragon Hold
Life in the Karaz Ankor is to be a bastion surrounded by enemies, and the Northern Holds are no exception to this. Kraka Drakk, as the largest, wealthiest, and most prosperous Hold in the North, often spearheads battles against the Dwarfs' many, many foes. There are some foes however, that hold hatred and grudges against the Dragon Hold almost as strong and fierce as the ones it holds against them.

Trolls
While the Greenskins, Skaven, and Chaos are the enemies the Dawi hate the most for countless Holds lost and Clans destroyed, it is the Trolls that the Dwarfs have the longest history of fighting. Long before the Goblin Wars, or even the Coming of Chaos, Dwarf caravans that braved the surface risked Troll attacks, though the beings overall stupidity prevented fortified Holds from being put at risk.

Bordering the heavily populated Troll Country, Kraka Drakk has an especially long and storied history of battling this old menace. The battle against the Greedy One (a particularly powerful, intelligent, and Chaos-corrupted Troll, as well as the progenitor of the Greedy Troll sub-species) a mere few decades into the Hold's founding.

Generations of Kraka Drakk Dawi have made their names hunting the Trolls ever since, assisted by the Hold's plethora of Rune Weaponry. Most prominent are those forged by the Legendary Runelord Snorri Gift Giver, his creations imbued with an aura that strikes fear into the hearts of most Trolls. The only exception being the Greedy Trolls, who loathe the Runelord and Hold that took their progenitor from them, and many will join any force that seeks to make war upon Kraka Drakk, bringing with them warbands of their lesser kin.

Skaven
Though hardly unscathed, the Gianthome Mountains were not as ravaged by the Time of Woes as the Worlds Edge Mountains where the bulk of the Karaz Ankor inhabited, so Kraka Drakk and the other Northern holds escaped the worst of the damage. This does not mean Kraka Drakk escaped unharmed, but combined with its sheer distance, at the very least, this allowed it to largely repel the Skaven attacks launched at it.

But there is no shortage of conflict, as the main Underway route that once linked Kraka Drakk to the rest of the Karaz Ankor is now contested with Clan Moulder of Hell Pit. Gronti have battled Rat Ogres and Abominations, while heavy patrols and fortified strongpoints fend off Skaven raids, and counterattacks retake fallen positions. The escalating warfare has become increasingly costly for Clan Moulder from its more distant position away from the larger Skaven Under-Empire, while more than once, surface forays by the Throng have depleted the stock of monsters the Clan wished to experiment on.

A dream of many in the Dragon Hold is to one day make a decisive assault to burn away Hell Pit in its entirety, equalled by the desire of many in Hell Pit to see the home of the Dwarf-things plundered, their Griffon allies dragged into the depths of the workshops of Clan Moulder.

Chaos Norscans
Though the Norscans of the south have largely rejected Chaos, shielded from the Wastes by ranges of mountains, those of the northern shores have happily embraced it. While much of the hatred and grudges is between the two factions of Norscans, those aligned with Chaos will hardly pass up an opportunity to fight the Dwarfen realms. To them, a victorious siege of a Dwarf Hold promises plunder beyond anything else achievable in Norsca. It is also a swift path to glory, for it is said the Dark Gods still resent the failure to wipe the North clean during the great incursion, and will richly reward any who could succeed where the Suneater failed.

Dragon Ogres
The Dwarfs have won victories and made enemies of all the servants of Chaos. Fimir, Beastmen, Daemons, Warriors. But none hold the same loathing for Kraka Drakk as the Dragon Ogres. During the Chaos Incursion, when Daemons rampaged across the entire world, when Aenarion wielded the Sword of Khaine on Ulthuan and Grimnir created the Road of Skulls on his final journey, Kholek Suneater led the invasion of the North, the Dark Gods promising great rewards should it be razed and eternal torment should he fail.

Unfortunately for him, he failed, brought down in the final stage of the Siege of Kraka Drakk.

The loss of one of the first-born of Krakanrok the Black, a Shaggoth of such an age to have been present when the Dragon Ogres' pact with Chaos was made, was poorly received by the rest of the species. Whenever the Dragon Ogres are roused from their slumber by great lightning storms, bands will gather together under Shaggoths, seeking to both avenge their elder and redeem their species' failure in the eyes of the Chaos Gods. For their part, the Dwarfs and Griffons of Kraka Drakk are always on the hunt for Dragon Ogres. Each one hunted down while they still slumber is one less that will besiege them in the future, and one more to be added to the tally of vengeance for wrongs inflicted across the history of the North.
 
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Hmm, does the banner's effect work in such a way that KotS could use his magical abilities inside of it?

I'm wondering if it's possible that Kholek could lose the ability to direct lightning from his personal storm towards himself, but the KotS would still be able to effect it, maybe by directing all the lightning away from Kholek?
 
I wonder what would happen if we made something out of all top tier components, then invested as many actions as possible into it.

Could we reach a tier above blue?
 
Hmm, does the banner's effect work in such a way that KotS could use his magical abilities inside of it?

I'm wondering if it's possible that Kholek could lose the ability to direct lightning from his personal storm towards himself, but the KotS would still be able to effect it, maybe by directing all the lightning away from Kholek?
50/50?

Runes are to some extent clearly and undeniably based on intent. On the other hand, he's not a Dwarf.
 
I wonder what would happen if we made something out of all top tier components, then invested as many actions as possible into it.

Could we reach a tier above blue?
Top tier 5 ingredients, then spend 1000 years on refining the ingredients 200 years at a time, then 500 years to forge the item, then 500 more to refine the item if that does not work then nothing would :V
 
Counters. I have many counters is the meta answer. The narrative answer is that Yorri wanders a lot and got caught out when the incursion happened. As for how he survived well... thatll be answered in the next update. But Yorri didnt used to have just two golems before this.

I hope this update proves that Gronti are in fact more useful than some people have been saying. Really feels like some people have a habit of downplaying the abilities of Golems while not considering that some are the Fantasy equivalent of 40K Titans. The Miner as well was shown as being incredibly useful during this whole thing despite not being heavily geared towards combat. And that's not counting how Yorri's Gronti ended up saving the Sky King and even seriously inconveniencing the Suneater himself.
 
I hope this update proves that Gronti are in fact more useful than some people have been saying. Really feels like some people have a habit of downplaying the abilities of Golems while not considering that some are the Fantasy equivalent of 40K Titans. The Miner as well was shown as being incredibly useful during this whole thing despite not being heavily geared towards combat. And that's not counting how Yorri's Gronti ended up saving the Sky King and even seriously inconveniencing the Suneater himself.
You aren't entirely wrong, but I'd like to note that those two Gronti were apparently a couple centuries of work from a better Runelord. This event definitely shows how useful they can be, but it also shows their limits, chiefly the requirement of a great deal of time compared to the alternatives. We could rush out a banner in time for the siege, but I doubt a Gronti in the same amount of time would he as helpful.
 
I hope this update proves that Gronti are in fact more useful than some people have been saying. Really feels like some people have a habit of downplaying the abilities of Golems while not considering that some are the Fantasy equivalent of 40K Titans. The Miner as well was shown as being incredibly useful during this whole thing despite not being heavily geared towards combat. And that's not counting how Yorri's Gronti ended up saving the Sky King and even seriously inconveniencing the Suneater himself.
Gronti are only not useful in comparison to the many other demands on our AP.

If we were less busy I'd be all over them, but keep in mind that 5 Gronti per 10 turns is the absolute maximum leeway we can get out of the Rule of Pride before repercussions start hitting, so there's only so much it's even possible to do with them.
 
still think we should look into the effectiveness of self moving boulder swarms to clear the underway so the soldiers there can reinforce the walls instead
 
You aren't entirely wrong, but I'd like to note that those two Gronti were apparently a couple centuries of work from a better Runelord. This event definitely shows how useful they can be, but it also shows their limits, chiefly the requirement of a great deal of time compared to the alternatives. We could rush out a banner in time for the siege, but I doubt a Gronti in the same amount of time would he as helpful.
They also weren't the only golems he had. I doubt he spent two hundred years on just those two. He might have had as many as a dozen or more.
 
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