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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I don't think that's that reasonable a fear... But if you do worry about that, then you should be voting for the Reckoner -- the one that is can hide itself -- rather than the Retaliator.

If you're that worried about And Then Suddenly, Bloodthirsters! to the point you'd want to keep a hero from the boss fight, vote for the option that uses the Rangerstrike combo warmachine.

Me, I don't think that's going to happen. Especially not for the opening shot. They might send a ton of people at the warmachine's position after they see it give Kholek the whallop of a lifetime, and that's what the Runesmiths and Huskarls are probably there for. But by then it'll be too late for the daemons, because it will have already fired the shot at Kholek. Though it'll probably be firing more shots at Kholek and/or his Dragon Ogre escort even after the first big one, so, it'd still remain useful and good. I mean. A warmachine is always good of course.

This is a period when the Chaos Gods could deploy literal divisions of Greater Daemons lead by Exalted Greater Daemons. Now, I don't think there's any chance we'll face that, as they have bigger fish to fry, like Aenaerion defending Caledor while he created the Vortex, Grimnir marching north and leaving the Road of Skulls behind, and the Slann defending the temple cities, but I really wouldn't want to assume that they couldn't shake a single Greater Daemon loose at this point.

I think we need to maximise our chances of a knock-out punch on Khorek while also having insurance against something like this happening.

As a side note, I expect that the climax of this battle will be at the same moment Grimnir reaches the end of his road and Caledor activates the Great Vortex.

No thanks, don't want to, I'm fine.

Ok. My answer then is:

I don't neglect that fact. Like... the "ancient records" that the sentence talks about, one of such records is the one they start with right afterward; the -1500 IC one with the pastoral tribe that disappeared into the forests. So before -1500 IC, we aren't as sure of what was happening, so if proto-proto-Empire peoples and events might have ended up then being important a thousand years later... Can't really be sure of what happened before -1500, so move on to the part where we're both more sure and where it starts talking about the Empire-tribes directly. (And -1500 was when the Time of Woes hit with its earthquakes. With "During this period, the records of many strongholds are lost or disrupted. Even the Great Book of Grudges in Karaz-a-Karak falls silent during this period", being said.) I just decide to get on to the bit where it starts with the tribes that would form some of the Empire's tribes, specifically.

Anyway. I don't ignore the starting sentences. Rather, I was instead deciding not to take it as an open-ended "nobody knows when humanity entered the Old World" = "well since we don't know for sure, for all we know a good deal of them were there all along!" -_- i.e. Deciding not to take it as an opportunity to go "Well it doesn't say so it could be anything." And then deciding to move on to look at what it said about the tribes. Not the pastoral ones of -1500 (which are "stamped in the ancient Dwarf runes no outsider is allowed to see" Just a normal mention of how the Dwarf language is secret and private. Though amusing seeing it's secretiveness get brought up here and now.) but the ones that are noted as sounding similar to the Empire.

Ancient records spanning centuries that are used as the basis for dwarven scholars work is more than one IC source, is my point. There are then the other runes carved in Black Fire Pass, and the contemporary 'dwarven lays'

The pastoral ones are those we have most detail about, as it happens. There is a record of one of the first dwarven contact with humans. We know the date, in -1,492 IC, and IC they know the circumstances of the encounter in great detail, as the dwarven High King at the time had it recorded, including analysis of the craftsmanship of their tools and their camp, along, I think with their religious artifacts. This is the basis on which he named them Umgi, as the quality of the work was shoddy.

Now, importantly, until only relatively before this point, the dwarves still had surface settlements, and before then they were moving around across the Old World prosecuting the War of Vengeance. There's just not very much time for significant unnoticed human presence in the northern Old World to develop. Some could have been there that the dwarves (and elves, back when they were friends with the dwarves) didn't find but there wouldn't be large numbers of them.

But I think we've exhausted this topic.
 
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It is a trade-off, basically.

Though, let me first point out as there seems.to be some confusion, that our trait buffs will enhance the defenders no matter which option we choose, whether we stay or go.

Anyway, for all of Snorri's humility, before he crafted the adamant armour for Otrek, I would have betted on Snorri in a 1vs1 fight.

He's a Lord-level character that can be of a significant help to defeating Kholek, I am certain of it.

That being said, his presence at the siege-engines is likely to ensure that even a surprise Greater Daemon gets pummeled by a buffed and bloodlusted Unyielding Really Old Grumbler.

In other words, he will ensure that the Bolt with Kholek's name on it penetrates deeply in that mutated lizard's behind.

I, for my part, judge this ensurance more highly than Snorri's potential part against Kholek.

Especially since Master Yorri, the maestro of esoteric runes, will likely be fighting Kholek as well.
 
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator


ensuring the bolt thrower gets the perfect shot and isn't disrupted is to important, yes more dwarves might die if everything went perfectly regardless of our presence, that's sort of irrelevent given that failure on the bolt thrower side is literally a catastrophe that would mean all of our dwarves likely die with out ancestor god suddenly reinforcing us, and there's not a great chance that this will happen.


The retaliator is our best and only real hope that we kill or injure Kholek enough that he's forced from the field.
 
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EDIT:
ensuring the bolt thrower gets the perfect shot and isn't disrupted is to important, yes more dwarves might die if everything went perfectly regardless of our presence, that's sort of irrelevent given that failure on the bolt thrower side is literally a catastrophe that would mean all of our dwarves likely die with out ancestor god suddenly reinforcing us, and there's not a great chance that this will happen.
Well, a screwup from the Kholek side of 'Is the bolt going to hit or not?' things is also a catastrophe -- because, remember, we also need to get Kholek pinned down by our Hero units so that the warmachine has a good shot at him. The Heroes aren't just fighting to beat him, but to also maneuver/pin him for the warmachine shot. I think contributing to making sure Kholek remains in place (and then contributing to the fight for the rest of it) is more important than being at the warmachine. Of which the first shot is going to be the most important one anyway.
 
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[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
Actually, a screwup from the Kholek side of 'Is the bolt going to hit or not?' things is also a catastrophe -- because, remember, we also need to get Kholek pinned down by our Hero units so that the warmachine has a good shot at him. The Heroes aren't just fighting to beat him, but to also maneuver/pin him for the warmachine shot. I think contributing to making sure Kholek remains in place (and then contributing to the fight for the rest of it) is more important than being at the warmachine. Of which the first shot is going to be the most important one anyway.

Kholek probably weighs something like as much as eight thousand dwarves. I don't really see how Snorri's contribution can stop him going anywhere he wants to. That's going to be down to the King of the Skies, I feel, who can get enough momentum behind him by dive bombing to make up the mass difference. I think the dwarven heroes are there to grind away at him, nibbling away at him from the flanks.

Of course I'm not sure of this, I'm not sure how much the Rune of Wrath and Ruin cares about this kind of thing.
 
Kholek probably weighs something like as much as eight thousand dwarves. I don't really see how Snorri's contribution can stop him going anywhere he wants to. That's going to be down to the King of the Skies, I feel, who can get enough momentum behind him by dive bombing to make up the mass difference. I think the dwarven heroes are there to grind away at him, nibbling away at him from the flanks.

Of course I'm not sure of this, I'm not sure how much the Rune of Wrath and Ruin cares about this kind of thing.
Snorri's contribution can be coordinating the runesmiths within the field to use Wrath and Ruin on Kholek at the same time. Multiple wrath and ruin simultaneously have been shown to have an additive effect
 
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons

[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
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Well, a screwup from the Kholek side of 'Is the bolt going to hit or not?' things is also a catastrophe -- because, remember, we also need to get Kholek pinned down by our Hero units so that the warmachine has a good shot at him. The Heroes aren't just fighting to beat him, but to also maneuver/pin him for the warmachine shot. I think contributing to making sure Kholek remains in place (and then contributing to the fight for the rest of it) is more important than being at the warmachine. Of which the first shot is going to be the most important one anyway.

With respect our heroes do not make a tarpit that will effect Kholek. Kholek is 21 metres tall and likely half as long. After all dragon Ogres are centaur shaped.

Personally I don't think anything will tarpit Kholek and only a peer in the form of the King of the Skies will be able to hold him in place. Us being part of the heroes that attack him will likely make no difference on that front.
 
Fantastic update, I utterly adored the writing on this one. Yorri is here! On the back of the Bird King no less! So much hype! I'm looking forward to the future interactions with glee.

In terms of the vote, it's a tough choice. Both options have their merits. For me personally, it's down to where I'd want those bonus modifiers. I won't wax on though.

[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
So... we added thirty and we beat Hashut by twenty-nine. We very literally made all the difference, if this is true. And it is true, because "Empowered Beyond Expectation" vs "empowering the effect, beyond even the expectations of its bearer." That's too perfect. No goddamn way. No goddamn way. I don't want to outright call bullshit but... meh, it's a cool butterfly to explore. I'll take it.

The way I see this vote, we join Otrek and fire from the Reckoner or we guard the Retaliator. The former banks on us being able to hold down and position Kholek for maximum effect on the bolt, and the Master Rune of Disguise to conceal the Reckoner until it's too late to do anything about it. The latter banks on the higher bonus from the Retaliator speaking for itself, but speaking loud enough that Chaos hears and pours in on it. I don't think soulcake's the type to give us a trap option, so I'm just ignoring anyone claiming the bolt thrower is totally safe and we're useless guarding the bolt thrower.

In the end, I'm inclined to take the second option. It feels like a surer thing, and if Otrek and the King of the Skies need to die for Kholek to be slain then so fucking be it. Gloin's a clever boy, the King of the Skies trusts his children to sort it out, and it'll be a hero's end for them both.

We could even get our own verse (knowing Dawi, verses, because the whole thing's eighty-six verses long) in the song. Let's not forget we made both of these bolt throwers we're choosing from and the bolt itself, plus whatever glory could come from leading the defence of the Retaliator. Plenty of drama can come of it. Perhaps losing our weapon in the brawl and throwing ourselves barehanded at a demon that's broken the cordon in a last-ditch effort to protect the Retaliator for even a few more seconds.

[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
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Question @soulcake. Is it possible to reshape or reforge a runic item, and then still keep the reagent-boosted property of the rune bonus from it? Namely: can we turn the Dragon's Spite into a halberd, lance or spear after this battle? While still keeping the Frost Dragon Brain-boost on the Master Rune of Currents and Frost Rune?
Things can be reforged from the shattered remnants of a Runeweapon and have been in the past. But never purposefully remade from an otherwise perfectly serviceable weapon no.
Failing that: can a bolt thrower bolt be wielded as another weapon? Like a lance? (I mean, Dwarfs don't do cavalry, but others do. Though also some lances get used on foot so hey.) If the Griffon King were to rip out the bolt from Kholek and try to use it as an improvised weapon, would that work?

Or... can he target it with his frost powers? It's even got frost powers itself. If he could channel it through it, and into Kholek's internals...

Heh. If this were anything else other than a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, I'd ask excitedly about the possibility of the "Target lightning on a weapon stuck in the monster, in order to strike its insides with lightning!" trick, but lightning makes these wake up so... What about targeting it with frost powers instead? Or, can Snorri tap the impaled bolt with his hammer and do that "activate some runic effect" thing he does with his necklace sometimes? Or failing that: maybe he can just hammer or shove the bolt further into the Shaggoth... and it might even count as a "this weapon is now being used by somebody; ergo, the Runic effects go off!" thing; might count as if the weapon were being used. (At minimum, it would be being used by somebody with "a Grudge against Kholek" to boot.)

I'd ask about adding Adamant to the Ancestral Aegis too, but -- I think melting down an item you made in order to make a superior version of it, probably rubs across the whole "pride" thing. Because, well, it's saying that your work wasn't good enough the first time. Whereas at least with the bolt thrower bolt, it'd be because Kholek would be dead, and so repurposing it into a will-probably-see-use-more-often weapon like a halberd or lance or spear would at least be understandable; you'd just be changing the shape of it, so that it can be used by Dwarfs in melee from now on.

Though, I guess it could just keep getting used as a bolt for a bolt thrower afterwards anyway.
All signs point to yes, don't see why a sufficiently large character couldn't use the bolt as a weapon no.
Actually, that is a question we should ask @soulcake Is Yorri still on the back of the KOTS?
you don't know.

As for the Human migration patterns I have been discussing that stuff and planning for it, but I realize with this potential butterfly I may need to revisit that sooner rather than later. :^)
 
Things can be reforged from the shattered remnants of a Runeweapon and have been in the past. But never purposefully remade from an otherwise perfectly serviceable weapon no.
I don't think we'll be in a hurry to cannibalize the bolt that killed (or helped kill) kholek for adamant, even if it's less useful.
If it doesn't kill him, and he survives the battle, it's probably lost, stuck inside his body.
if it misses and kholek survives, we repair it and reuse it next time Kholek shows his ugly mug.
If it misses and kholek dies anyway, we could justify melting it down. The runes on it would become depowered due to a fulfilled grudge, We just use it to make a gift for whoever struck the killing blow.
 
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
 
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