On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
Would the Rune of Animation/Waking on a crossbow allow it to draw itself? Might allow for automatic fire. This is mostly a curiosity, I doubt that even if it could it would be very useful for us.
The Rangerstrike combo is great, but seems quite awkward on a siege engine, as those can't be moved easily. Not that a giant penetrating bolt to a weak point out of nowhere isn't extremely useful at times for assassinating leaders and such. But making some crossbows for our holds Rangers with it seems like an excellent idea to me.
For the first part I think the answer we got was experiment and find out. For the second part I don't think the weapon effects would apply to the rangers themselves, just their weapons. We could make some kind of invisibility cloak/muffles sound type cloak for a couple rangers I suppose?
The Meteorfall combo mentions a bubble of expanding force, which does not seem to fit with Trollslayer being an axe. Is it a sharp shaped charge or a semi spherical boom? If the former, scary! We should make more axes with it. Only there is that Rule of Pride, damn it.
The way I took it was that Snorri recreated the explosion that killed The Greedy One. Gigantic gas explosion, sudden intense force to shred an enemy. All in the direction of the hit.
The way the Rule of Pride has been explained is that as long as we aren't constantly churning out the same master runes we're fine. 2 of the same designs a century is the soft limit. 3 would be stretching it and would have other Runesmiths looking askance at Snorri.
Master Rune of Spite seems like the perfect thing to put on someone/thing with a very large HP pool, such as a combat golem for example. I wonder if we could make one with that heart we got to make it regenerating, that would be a damn scary warmachine. I don't recall any runes that could repair stuff though.
For the first part I think the answer we got was experiment and find out. For the second part I don't think the weapon effects would apply to the rangers themselves, just their weapons. We could make some kind of invisibility cloak/muffles sound type cloak for a couple rangers I suppose?
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
Would the Rune of Animation/Waking on a crossbow allow it to draw itself? Might allow for automatic fire. This is mostly a curiosity, I doubt that even if it could it would be very useful for us.
I think the combination of a Rune or Reloading plus the Rune of Animation could well significantly increase rate of fire, even if it can't make it automatic fire. A self-drawing, self-reloading crossbow could be very useful for dealing with horde enemies like the tides of beastmen we'll probably have to face.
What might be as useful though is applying it to the winch of a small ballista. Add a Rune of Lightfoot and they could be single dwarf weapons, thanks to reloading and rearming as well as their weight being handled by runes.
We do have plenty of silver wutroth as well as the gromril to make them with in fifty years or so when we'll have time.
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
Note, because I have noticed us spending a single action on Gromril research or crafting requiring multiple APs at least two times:
If we invest 2 actions there, we get 1 extra, for +50% performance.
If 3 actions, we get 2 extra, for +66%.
4 actions give us 3 extra, for +75%.
As you can see the more actions we invest the higher the value of each additional one, up to 4. We should not put less then two actions into longer term research or crafting, and ideally more. If we can not afford to spare more than that, we should use that action for something else and dedicate most of our actions next turn to it if possible.
4 actions still only give us 2 extra. Our breakpoints are 2 and 3. If we put in five actions we'd get 8 out of it, since that's a proc of 2 and a proc of 3, but there's nothing for putting 4 actions in.... yet. Give us time.
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
Hypothetically... Would a griffon count as crew for a crossbow being carried by a riding said griffon?
Because invisible griffon riding rangers would be a pretty awesome strike force
4 actions still only give us 2 extra. Our breakpoints are 2 and 3. If we put in five actions we'd get 8 out of it, since that's a proc of 2 and a proc of 3, but there's nothing for putting 4 actions in.... yet. Give us time.
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
Funnily enough it would be better suited if the Hold she was moving too was further north than her current one. Her new necklace would keep her warm through the cold winters! Except she's going to a hold more southern so it's mildly warmer.
Still a wholesome image, just a funny thing I noticed.
Hmm, firestone amulet with a Hearth theme. Master Valaya, Fire and an unlisted lesser Rune of protection or fertility should work out quite well I think? Fire protects from winter. Valaya protects from the Winds. and Valaya with Fire would be ah...invoking a blessing of ardor?
Also funny thought, theres coal the rock that burns...and coal the chunk of burning ember in a dim but still hot fire.
Snorri giving out coals heh.
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
Productivity like no other does not proc on research. And the plus 2 replaces the plus 1 when you put in three actions, it does not become additive. If you put in five actions then you yould proc the two actio bonus again.
So when we're working, it really doesn't matter if a request takes 2 actions or 4 actions of work output to produce, as long as we're doing it in one go: We end up with 1 overflow regardless (we output 3 or 5)
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
Would the Rune of Animation/Waking on a crossbow allow it to draw itself? Might allow for automatic fire. This is mostly a curiosity, I doubt that even if it could it would be very useful for us.
The Rangerstrike combo is great, but seems quite awkward on a siege engine, as those can't be moved easily. Not that a giant penetrating bolt to a weak point out of nowhere isn't extremely useful at times for assassinating leaders and such. But making some crossbows for our holds Rangers with it seems like an excellent idea to me. Or not, Rule of Pride damn it.
The Meteorfall combo mentions a bubble of expanding force, which does not seem to fit with Trollslayer being an axe. Is it a sharp shaped charge or a semi spherical boom? If the former, scary! We should make more axes with it. Only there is that Rule of Pride, how annoying.
Master Rune of Spite seems like the perfect thing to put on someone/thing with a very large HP pool, such as a combat golem for example. I wonder if we could make one with that heart we got to make it regenerating, that would make for a damn scary warmachine. I don't recall any runes that could repair stuff though.
I wonder if a Fire+Frost+?(maybe sound?) rune combo would create alternating waves of hot and cold, perhaps swapping with each hit. Temperature shock does nasty thing to hard targets.
The Rune of Reflection seems tailor made for making lasers.
I wonder what substituting the Warding Rune in the Conversion combo with the Master Rune of Spite would do. Destroy spells, eat them, and use that to punish the caster?
Simple amulets with the Rune of Sound seem like they might be very useful for commanders on the battlefield or Rangers.
I would definitely suggest reading the first hundred or so pages of the thread, a lot of this has come up before. Or searching for these ideas. There's also commentary about automating runecraft, in sum we can't, that is also worth reading.
Yeah. Below you will find a quote of mine leading to the initial proposal and reasoning, and a list of what research work and set up is needed for it as the proposal stands now. But, here's where I'm at with it now after multiple updates to the initial proposal.
Firstly we know after discussion with soulcake that making an ogre sized Gronti entirely out of Pure Gromril is possible. If we have stable Adamant production we should be able to give such a Gronti a skin, a cladding, of a layer of Adamant and inscribe the Runes that will awaken the Gronti onto that cladding so that it is all one piece. Here are the quotes where he talks about an Ogre sized Gronti and its impact on our wealth.
Red Bovine said:
@soulcake How feasible would it be to make a Golem out of Adamant or Gromril? Would scaling it down make a difference if it would be a issue normally?
You only have the bar of the former and don't know how much you can make even after finding a long term production method. For the latter, it would be incredibly pricey but not as ruinous as equipping a throng in Gromril armour.
How about a golem whose body is made of Pure Gromril and is a very big Gronti going by the Write In actions? Also on that note, could we repair such a Pure Gromril Golem?
Repairable but the kind of damage that can tear apart a Pure Gromril Construction would have other more worrying implications for you TBH.
like the fact that'd you'd be fighting something that can break Pure Gromril. :^)
Also something as large as a Blood Thirster or some other Greater Daemon would be quite the investment. my calculations were based on the average ogre sized Gronti. But uh that'd be much bigger. Enough that it'd put a non trivial hole in your wealth. Honestly I'd outright say no if you didn't own a large Gromril Mine, and made a tidy profit from Silver Wutroth.
Oh yeah and at that scale yes weight would be start to be an issue in certain cases.
So we know that a ogre sized Pure Gromril Gronti would be very pricy and that a Bloodthister sized one would be enough to seriously impact our wealth, which is so large as to be "Yeah basically monetary costs aren't a problem" normally.
We know also that the Miner Gronti was a T3 based on its size and sheer power and enormous gromril pickaxe. So it is reasonable to assume that an Ogre sized Gronti made out of Pure Gromril, a T3 material, clad in a skin of Adamant, a T4 material, would also be a T4 creation just on its own if we used a normal Troll Heart in the Master Rune of Awakening. As an aside we have an infinite amount of any troll parts we could want given where we live. Such a Gronti should be magically resistant natively due to the properties of Pure Gromril and Adamant and absurdly durable as well as repairable if repairs are ever needed. As a hardpoint in a formation of shock troops, such an incredibly durable combatant is desirable and it would also be very strong which is a nice consequence. Moving on.
As I said we know that Troll Hearts are required for the Master Rune of Awakening from the Rune List threadmark, and we know from previous updates that these things are true:
- Greedy One's Heart Trait Revealed, Pulling from the Deep:Energy eternal, drawing without end from the deepest places of the earth and the oldest magics. Whatever Rune is made from this baleful thing will not only be incredibly powerful, beyond even the scope of the original rune, but also never falter, never cease, and endure until the world's ending.
[ ] The Greedy One's Heart: This thing has been transferred to a warded container because you don't really trust anything that came from that thing. You're all but certain you could make a truly potent Rune of Healing or Fortitude with this thing, but perhaps there are other uses for it you could come up with that a battery of tests could reveal.[Cost: (4 -1) =3 actions] Student of the Odd will proc
So a Gronti made from the Greedy Heart should never cease and will endure until all life ends when the world dies. Furthermore we have very good reason to conclude that it would greatly improve the Master Rune of Awakening because the Greedy Heart is a T5 form of the T2 Troll Heart. We also know that we could make an extremely powerful form of the Rune of Fortitude from the research task that initially existed to understand the Heart. The Rune of Fortitude is an Armor Rune that increases the durability of the armor and just generally has to do with increased fortitude going by its fluff.
Now a lot of people want a sapient golem. Personally I find the idea interesting, but fraught with cultural issues for the Dawi (We'd be doing something like what the Ancestors did in such a case which is like, whew boi that's a mess) and we have no means to reliably give a creation sapience anyway. The closest we can get is the Rune of Fortitude because its fluff talks about sapience arising in armors that have it after long enough. So while I much prefer the Rune of Fortitude because we can make a really good one with the Heart and it has to do with making things with greater fortitude and hardiness, I understand that a lot of people will go for it out of the faint hope of getting a sapient golem.
Finally the Rune of Might is something I want on it as well in order to try for a Runic Combo with the Master Rune of Awakening and the Rune of Fortitude. Awaken the Gronti and bless it with unyielding Might and Fortitude. The thematic resemblance to a Troll is also intended, but it would be better because it'd be carved into the shape of a dwarf at huge sizes and made out of magically resistant materials. My hope is that by putting the extremely powerful Heart onto the Master Rune of Awakening which acts as the core that its energies will bleed out into the Rune of Fortitude and Rune of Might and empower them. And since its all one creation, that should happen.
Such a creation should be thusly T5. Especially if we can supporting ingredients beyond Adamant and Pure Gromril for the Golem's body. I can't think of any, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Here are the steps required to do all of this:
The universal bit of leg work we have to do is studying the heart itself, for any project using it. We can't use it in a project until we do that. This is done. We did that on turn 13.
For the Golem, there's a couple of steps that would need to be taken before we could create it according to my proposal:
Since I want to plate it in Adamant we need to be able to produce Adamant reliably. That means finishing Rune Metal part 4 at least, if part 4 gives reliable Adamant manufacture, which seems likely. This can be finished next turn.
These things are going to have to come after the Marriage Commissions (The Cloaks + Amulet, and the Armors) are done, since the Marriage is a time-limited priority. The Adamant research is just helpful for the Marriage stuff too, and many other things, so it can be done without mucking around with those.
We'd also need to study the Movement of Things research. That should help with understanding and improving upon Golems in general, ala Rune Metal is my hope. At five actions this would take one turn of focus. So probably two turns given we regularly have stuff to do.
Then we have to make infrastructure to support making that amount of Adamant/Make enough Adamant to plate a big ass Golem, probably Ogre or bigger in dimensions. Big enough to comfortably use as a mount for Snorri. This might be mixed with completing Rune Metal part 4, but I'm going to assume no. If this is on the scale of the Smelter then that's another turn or so.
Then we have to get whatever supporting ingredients we think we need. Troll parts are effectively infinite considering where we live, plus Pure Gromril. There might be others, but those are the main ones for the golem itself.
When all of that is done, we have to build the thing.
Then we have to make the Golem itself, which we know is 3 actions. One to take up part one of the request, 2 to actually do part 2 if it is an Ogre sized creation. And we're going to want to put one action into part one, then do part two on the following turn so we can put the most amount of overflow into part two. Then because we know how we can put equipment on it, that means a further 2 actions for each piece of equipment we want for it, more Adamant and more ingredients. Going upwards of 9 actions is eminently possible just building the golem and its stuff. Which would be more than two turns to build it and its equipment, though on balance the equipment can come later in increments.
If we wanted to build a Bloodthirster sized Gronti we'd know that's 4 actions. One to take part one of the request, 3 to do part 2. Every piece of equipment would then take three actions, one for their part ones, two for their part twos. It would also carve a massive hole in our wealth and introduce weight concerns. Those weight concerns could perhaps be solved with a Talisman which contains at least the Master Rune of Passage but its the option I am slightly less keen compared to the Ogre sized option.
Personally I expect us to take centuries to even get to a point where we've finished the researches and set up and at least another half century to build the bloody thing and its equipment.
With its full panopoly Ymir should be a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield.
Now the thing with Gronti on the battlefield is that they're not the best at hitting stuff that's groomed for battle like Khornate Greater Daemons. They are however durable enough to stall it and powerful enough to threaten lesser enemies, so they must be answered by commensurate force. Therefore its equipment should be designed to help it bridge that gap and there are options on hand for that like a combo of Master Rune of Currents, Rune of Parrying, Rune of Striking on an axe. The equipment has been of course the topic for multiple separate discussions. But things to help it move like a talisman with Master Rune of Passage, or to increase its magic resistance further by giving it a Conversion combo, and sticking a cape on its back that can hold a banner that heals its allies have all been brought up.
Referencing what I talked about earlier, Ingredient seeking is much more important for the Gronti's equipment, which will require ingredients for Master Runes and so on. Ingredient seeking will come from either RER landing them in our laps or exploring the Yorri sites. That's several more turns. E: IF we want the equipment ready for when we make the thing, the equipment can come later in increments.
And that's how it stands now.
Here is the initial proposal for historical purposes.
Okay so build it big. Really really big as a base, carved from the stone deep within the mountain heart of Kraka Drakk, and clad it in Adamant if we can, which is already insane because that's a T4 material. So make it as big as is practical to clad.
Then use The Greedy Heart as a core and try and synergize off it as much as possible with the Master Rune of Awakening, The Rune of Might, and the Rune of Fortitude in part because Snorri has said outright that he can make a really good one with the Greedy Heart. As in here:
The Rune of Fortitude also has this interesting fluff text: Rune of Fortitude
- It is rumoured that armour bearing this rune eventually becomes sentient. Whilst no Runesmith has ever confirmed this rumour, they make no attempts to deny it either.
Now that's from the wiki so I'm not sure how verifyable it is, but we know for a solid Fact that Snorri thinks he can make a really good Rune of Fortitude with it regardless of any possible sapience.
The Master Rune of Awakening in my mind has a statement of "Awaken, Stone, and join us." and the Rune of Might is "Strike with the mightiest blows" and then the Rune of Fortitude seems to be about "Withstand any blow undaunted with unbending vitality"
So mix that together and it might be "Awaken, Stone and join us as we gift you with the mightiest blows and unbending, undaunted vitality".
Hmm, firestone amulet with a Hearth theme. Master Valaya, Fire and an unlisted lesser Rune of protection or fertility should work out quite well I think? Fire protects from winter. Valaya protects from the Winds. and Valaya with Fire would be ah...invoking a blessing of ardor?
Also funny thought, theres coal the rock that burns...and coal the chunk of burning ember in a dim but still hot fire.
Snorri giving out coals heh.
The only thing I would add is testing out the runes on a prototype golem without the huge scale or expensive materials first so we can be sure we're using a runic combo on the big one.
If Might and Fortitude don't combo, there are other things to try. I'd be interested to see if Fortitude and Healing let it regenerate, or if Fortitude and Spelleating might up the power of the golem even more.
[X] Accept: Take on [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: The King of Ungor wants two cloaks? By Grungni you'll give him two cloaks! Damn finest cloaks anyone will ever see! Must be completed in four turns starting Turn 15.
- [X] Accept Amulet, Combo: Add Amulet to items in [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 1: Tell the king you'll take on the Amulet Request as well, what's one more task on the pile?
The only thing I would add is testing out the runes on a prototype golem without the huge scale or expensive materials first so we can be sure we're using a runic combo on the big one.
If Might and Fortitude don't combo, there are other things to try. I'd be interested to see if Fortitude and Healing let it regenerate, or if Fortitude and Spelleating might up the power of the golem even more.
Fortitude and Forging might combo, its a warmachine and soulcake has told us that if we did such a thing any replacement parts would perfectly fit. Or something along those lines.
Hmm. We could make a Gronti for guarding the Inner Gate. That'd only take four actions, or three if we make it smaller. Which is like, another turn. @soulcake I have a proposal for you.
[Difficult] Write in, A Miner's Brother: Since returning from the campaign you've been reflecting on Grimnir and how he fought, twin axes flashing. Sometimes you found yourself looking at the Miner while these thoughts tumbled through your mind, and now they've all fallen together. You could make it a Brother, a Warrior. A twelve meter tall stone Gronti with twin axes of Gromril, mighty and doughty to set before the Inner Gate of Kraka Drakk, whose king is descended from the Valiant One.
This would obviously be for after the Marriage stuff. That has to take priority, because of the time crunch and because people are going to be interested in it due to the time crunch.
[Difficult] Write in, A Miner's Brother: Since returning from the campaign you've been reflecting on Grimnir and how he fought, twin axes flashing. Sometimes you found yourself looking at the Miner while these thoughts tumbled through your mind, and now they've all fallen together. You could make it a Brother, a Warrior. A twelve meter tall Gronti with twin axes of Gromril, mighty and doughty to set before the Inner Gate of Kraka Drakk, whose king is descended from the Valiant One.
Yeah, like the Miner he'd be made out of stone. The important part is the runes and his job, which is to sit in between the outer and inner gates and make that area a bit of a fuck to take.
I would personally recommend that we make Ymir as large as we possibly can. Aka Bloodthirster size. While Soulcake did say that that would put an actually sizable dent in Snorri's fortune I believe it to be completely worth it. And I think Snorri would as well. Ymir is most likely going to be one of, if not the, Greatest thing Snorri will ever make so its only appropriate that he/we pour everything he/we can into it.
Also, as a note we will probably have even more Favor to spend by then and one of the primary uses of Favor is to use it to acquire material so I really don't see the amount of Gromril we would need as being any kind of true issue.
