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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Last time there was a roll in the thread, it was a 13 for the Rune of Speed, and Karstah accidentally activated the pressure plate that sent her into the trial. So it's probably for Snorri figuring out the puzzle.
 
Use runes of connection and animation inscribed into quills, chisels, tablets, or even etch-a-sketch type contraptions that are basically quantum linked to each other in order to send messages between linked contraptions.

Just spitballin':

Intent of the Item: Communication/ Transcription of User Message from Sender to Receiver: Rune of Transcription, Communication Runes, etc.

Make it so that the sender literally has to be an ally to work: keyed to the Rune of Brotherhood/Allies/etc.

Message to be sent needs to be mirrored over vast distances to its keyed/twin material: Something derived from Gazul's Rune of Ties
 
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A scrying rune would work as well I think. There are already anti scrying runes like dum denial so the concept isn't unknown and it's a basic mage spell that Snorri could ask the elves about. With a scrying rune you can just point two mirrors at each other to communicate.
 
A scrying rune would work as well I think. There are already anti scrying runes like dum denial so the concept isn't unknown and it's a basic mage spell that Snorri could ask the elves about. With a scrying rune you can just point two mirrors at each other to communicate.
but that would be vulnerable to surges of magic or magic storms knocking/interfering with connections? or would that be a lower risk than physical interference with less 'magical' method?
 
but that would be vulnerable to surges of magic or magic storms knocking/interfering with connections? or would that be a lower risk than physical interference with less 'magical' method?
It could be vulnerable to that, however we could probably work around that, we could just put the mirrors in the underway, have them in some crazy vast array over super long distances.

Edit: What I mean by that is our tunnels are probably magic proof to anything but intentional fuckery. So if one tunnel doesn't work than we can send it down another.
 
Yeah, the tunnels are sufficiently proofed against hostile invasion that they're considered reliable for transport by **dwarves**

They're not impenetrable, but they're good enough that we can use them.
 
I've proposed it before but small hollow flying gronti that can regurgitate a message scroll should meet all of Alaric's requirements.

They should be significantly faster than a dwarven messenger, much harder to intercept, and very likely capable of being more capable of destroying a mesage inside them if they are. They're also much more likely to be able to be commanded to deliver messages to a variety of places rather than anything requiring vast amounts of fixed infrastructure which can be attacked.

They can also carry very information dense messages that are much harder to transmit via things like semaphore, such as maps (which are militarily very important).
 
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I wonder if the nonsense Thungni did with the 3 Grontis in the Preservation Trial has anything to do with a Structural variant of MR Waking.
 
I've proposed it before but small hollow flying gronti that can regurgitate a message scroll should meet all of Alaric's requirements.

They should be significantly faster than a dwarven messenger, much harder to intercept, and very likely capable of being more capable of destroying a mesage inside them if they are. They're also much more likely to be able to be commanded to deliver messages to a variety of places rather than anything requiring vast amounts of fixed infrastructure which can be attacked.

They can also carry very information dense messages that are much harder to transmit via things like semaphore, such as maps (which are militarily very important).
It also runs into Rule of Pride issues and in my opinion are a bit boring as a solution.
 
I still like my combination of flying Gronti and flare signal system.
Have some specialized dwarf translate a package of message into a light-and-dance pattern, kinda like the old IRL human computers and instruct them into the Gronti. The Gronti then flies to within sight of the destination and dances the message into the sky, where local watchmen transcribe it and bring it to another specialized dwarf that splits it into messages again. The Gronti itself just returns home without exposing itself by landing.
 
It also runs into Rule of Pride issues and in my opinion are a bit boring as a solution.

All proposed solutions run into Rule of Prode issues. They'll either require Master Runes or large scale deployment of identical lesser rune arrays. That's inherent in the problem itself, as it requires something that would need to be deployable across dozens of major holds and hundreds or thousands of lesser holds and with dwarven forces deployed in the field. The only solutions that would avoid this would be in the domain of the engineers, not the runesmiths.

What something like a flying gronti can do is work at multiple scales. If you have one it allows one important message to be sent and a reply returned much more quickly and safely. That's an improvement over the current situation. If other runesmiths or their customers are then interested, they can seek to bargain for the upgraded MRoW and make their own copies. It's something that can organically spread in a way that is perfectly consistent with the way Runelord is meant to spread. No coordination or mega projects required. Each messenger Gronti is independently valuable and so normal pressures of supply and demand will cause the knowledge to make them to proliferate.

I still like my combination of flying Gronti and flare signal system.
Have some specialized dwarf translate a package of message into a light-and-dance pattern, kinda like the old IRL human computers and instruct them into the Gronti. The Gronti then flies to within sight of the destination and dances the message into the sky, where local watchmen transcribe it and bring it to another specialized dwarf that splits it into messages again. The Gronti itself just returns home without exposing itself by landing.

Given the existence of flying enemies it's probably safer to land, quickly drop off message, collect any replies or similar, and then take off again. With the appropriate disguise, enemies may not even know that a messenger gronti landing on a mountain peak exists, or if it does that it isn't a regular bird.

Also, if you're not collecting replies, a flying messenger gronti can just drop the message in a collection chute without landing.
 
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If we're carrying messages through space, rather than magically transmitting messages from one point to another, the Rune propelled buggy becomes a more viable solution than Gronti, because it only requires one simple rune.
 
All proposed solutions run into Rule of Prode issues. They'll either require Master Runes or large scale deployment of identical lesser rune arrays. That's inherent in the problem itself, as it requires something that would need to be deployable across dozens of major holds and hundreds or thousands of lesser holds and with dwarven forces deployed in the field. The only solutions that would avoid this would be in the domain of the engineers, not the runesmiths.

What something like a flying gronti can do is work at multiple scales. If you have one it allows one important message to be sent and a reply returned much more quickly and safely. That's an improvement over the current situation. If other runesmiths or their customers are then interested, they can seek to bargain for the upgraded MRoW and make their own copies. It's something that can organically spread in a way that is perfectly consistent with the way Runelord is meant to spread. No coordination or mega projects required. Each messenger Gronti is independently valuable and so normal pressures of supply and demand will cause the knowledge to make them to proliferate.
No actually they don't all run into Rule of Pride issues. Even dwarves who stick very tightly to the Rule of Pride like Vragni have work arounds and loopholes (Apprentice Swarm) because when your hold needs 10,000 light runes, your choices are find a way to make as many as you can or cede that contract and the influence/reputation gain to a dwarf who doesn't stick tightly to it.
Large infrastructure project solutions will run into manpower issues... but thats something we solve by adding it to the Khazagar curriculum.

I don't see how flying Gronti's work at different scales. They only work at one scale which is one message or bag of messages at a time.
And as far as spreading goes, manually trading runes is a hell of a slow way to spread the development of stuff, thats why Snorri hasn't been trading the prosphesis runes, he's just been teaching everyone who asks. The entire reason that Khazagar was invented on a meta level is that we know that rune spread in that way is so slow that a lot of knowledge was lost in the time of woes.
 
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Does a Gronti made of Gromril fly, or does it need the featherweight rune as well?

Edit: And what's the pathfinding like on Gronti? Can they read signs?
 
Before these trial turns I would have said gronti aren't intelligent enough to independently pathfind their way between holds or find officials on their own.
Nah, that at least was never an issue. Gronti are smart.
Even when they haven't got orders we've seen them identify restraining obstacles, figure out how to destroy them and remove any dwarves from the danger zone before enacting their plan, it then went to seek out instructions from Snorri.
 
Does a Gronti made of Gromril fly, or does it need the featherweight rune as well?

Edit: And what's the pathfinding like on Gronti? Can they read signs?

A bird shaped gronti made of gromril should be able to fly if it's hollow enough that it has the same overall density as a bird. No featherweight rune should be required for the same reason as why metal aircraft can fly, they have thin skins.

For a messenger, being hollow is an advantage as it can securely store messages inside.

No actually they don't all run into Rule of Pride issues. Even dwarves who stick very tightly to the Rule of Pride like Vragni have work arounds and loopholes (Apprentice Swarm) because when your hold needs 10,000 light runes, your choices are find a way to make as many as you can or cede that contract and the influence/reputation gain to a dwarf who doesn't stick tightly to it.
Large infrastructure project solutions will run into manpower issues... but thats something we solve by adding it to the Khazagar curriculum.

I don't see how flying Gronti's work at different scales. They only work at one scale which is one message or bag of messages at a time.
And as far as spreading goes, manually trading runes is a hell of a slow way to spread the development of stuff, thats why Snorri hasn't been trading the prosphesis runes, he's just been teaching everyone who asks. The entire reason that Khazagar was invented on a meta level is that we know that rune spread in that way is so slow that a lot of knowledge was lost in the time of woes.

Flying messenger gronti work on multiple scales because one messenger gronti carrying messages improves communications, and as more are built communication incrementally improves until you get to the scale where you can have networks of them flying regular routes with relays between them to form mail delivery systems.

Something like a semaphore, by contrast, needs massive investment before the first message can be sent. One semaphore station on its own can't usefully carry a message. You need to build a line of multiple of them to link two holds.

The example of the Rune of Light is, as far as I can tell, basically a special case of runesmiths just ignoring the Rune of Pride where it's inconvenient, and having done so for so long that doing so has become a tradition of its own. Any novel runes we invent won't have a tradition of disregarding the Rule of Pride with regards to it.
 
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Flying messenger gronti work on multiple scales because one messenger gronti carrying messages improves communications, and as more are built communication incrementally improves until you get to the scale where you can have networks of them flying regular routes with relays between them to form mail delivery systems.
Look, you said yourself:
All proposed solutions run into Rule of Prode issues
Networks aren't an option. And of all the discussed solutions, they're probably the one with the lowest capacity to transfer a high volume of mail due to being comparable speed to train like solutions but with far lower capacity and a Master Runesmith requirement on the ability to create them unlike semaphore designs. Even stuff without a rune involved such as traditional wagons or canal boats, would provide better volume capacity because even if they were a hundred times slower than a gronti, they can definetly carry more than a 100 times more.
These aren't owned by the post office. They're the personal property of the king who commissioned them. They fly 100's of miles there with a message and then fly back probably with a response.
They aren't doing routes, they aren't making a delivery system.


You seem to have completely misunderstood the Rule of Pride.
Snorri interprets it as not applying for lesser runes, because its just not practical for him to abide by it and still contribute to the extent he wants.
Vragni, knows dozens of iterations of runes that are just slightly different enough that he can justify calling them different runes and thus not subject to the Rule of Pride.
Apprentices are exempt, because they're still learning, so making mistakes and needing to try again is an inevitability and so they shouldn't be taking the same sort of pride in their work that they should after they've graduated.
Its not just something special about the Rune of Light.


The work of an apprentice like Snerra was enough that members of the clan swore a debt that needed to be repaid. When we were making Stormwrath for the KoS it was mentioned we used so much Gromril it could bankrupt entire clans. Snorri built a small city and the only real cost to him was that his money pile was noticeably smaller. I really really need to stress this, the only things that approach the cost of things Runelords have made will be stuff thats a couple of degrees of separation.
Non dwarf shaped Gronti's require a unique level of specialisation and skill that most Runelords do not have. Flying is likely to restrict this even further.
They're likely to either require Featherweight, which is only known by people Dolgi have given it to (and this includes an Oath not to spread the knowledge) or people who have Adamant for its superior strength weight ratio. Restricting it even further.
Its important to understand all this because although we mostly talk about the Rule of Pride in terms of limiting development, if you want to compare infrastructure costs, bespoke flying Gronti's each requiring the highest quality of runelord and material to make is actually likely to exceed the cost of a semaphore for equivalent mail carrying capacity.
 
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Hmhhhh

A hammer rings out for a final time, and the clarion ringing echoes through the cavern for what feels like an eternity, followed by a restful silence.

Beautiful. Radiant. Wondrous.

It is one of the finest work these old hands have forged, though not the one closest to His heart. The wonder of wonders, the shape of all that He is, that They are, made manifest.

It shall be the last these yet mortal hands, already unravelling and only grown worse by this act, shall create as they currently are.

SOoooooooooooooo ...
Anyone wanna bet, that what's at the end of those trials is in fact NOT THE hammer of Thungi but rather A hammer of Thungi ...
cause I have this feeling it may be ever more educationa tresure hunt than anticipated.
Like: congrats you solved the puzzle, here's your reward and even better puzzle for even better reward!
feels Thungi style, somehow.
 
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