On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
You know in a more serious notes we if we suceed into making the wind arcane theory for rune smithing and look a bit on the geomancy theory we may put w new "unachievable" goal on the rune comunity, replicate the weapons of the gods.
You know in a more serious notes we if we suceed into making the wind arcane theory for rune smithing and look a bit on the geomancy theory we may put w new "unachievable" goal on the rune comunity, replicate the weapons of the gods.
My initial thought after the five rune axe revelation was that it's programming abstraction. Maybe a rune can be broken down into even smaller runes and rearranged in a way that it doesn't break the whole but adds more "sockets" or something. I always thought the common runes were like Java "objects" because they seem predefined and streamlined like they were templates. Like normal runelords are using Java and Grungni was using Assembly or something.
I think Snori is missing the forest for the admittedly very very tall trees. Yes Grungi was able to make that axe with basic materials but for some reason he choose not to teach that on or was unable to do so. It might therefore be either very dangerous or require that one be superlatively resistant to channeling the powers of the Aethyr in crafting
I think these two together form the core of the secret behind breaking the Rule of Three.
The single most common failure in writing, a failure that pretty much all writers suffer from multiple times in a single story before they get practiced enough to start avoiding it, is not keeping the pieces of the story in their proper place. Repeating words again and again when they should be using different ones, getting character perspectives and styles mixed up with each other, allowing too much of the author's perspective to seep in where it shouldn't be, and on and on and on...
Now take all of that and add Magic, the Ultimate Catalyst, into the mix. In the story you're trying to write, you're now wrestling with a functionally-omnipresent force trying to change what the words are and where they go.
In essence, the "Rule of Three", just like all the other rules, is a guideline - Three is just how many runes the average Dwarf Runesmith can handle when they're writing their stories.
Snorri wasn't wrong when he described Foefeller as "...drawing the very idea of what an axe...is from a Dwarf's mind". In the end, that drawing from the mind is the raison d'etre of words and by extension Runecraft. Makes it both inspiring and tragic to think of what Elgi and Dawi accomplish when you mix the two methods.
My initial thought after the five rune axe revelation was that it's programming abstraction. Maybe a rune can be broken down into even smaller runes and rearranged in a way that it doesn't break the whole but adds more "sockets" or something. I always thought the common runes were like Java "objects" because they seem predefined and streamlined like they were templates. Like normal runelords are using Java and Grungni was using Assembly or something.
It can also be that Grungni is just better at memory management. All of these runesmiths getting memory overflow after 3 runes, while Grungni can squeeze ram out like its nobody's business, even out of inferior materials like gromril.
Or maybe there is another layer to the whole runesmithing business, and everyone who doesn't know it basically gets a segfault error after 3 runes.
So I have had a think on the matter of the Ancestors and the more I consider it the more likely it seems that they cannot teach whatever the secret of lets call it High Runelore is.
Lets take Durin the Lost for a moment (don't worry I'll put his back when I'm done ). Druin apprentices to his father, because at that point there is no one else to learn runes from, he has his apprenticeship, makes his journeyman piece, goes on his journey, comes back properly with a masterwork and then... what Thungi teaches him only part of his greater lore because he wants his son to reinvent the wheel on his own for some reason? I mean imagine if Snori did that to Snera 'right lass I am going to teach you some master runes, but not all the stuff I know because I want you do duplicate my efforts.' That is asshole behavior in a personal level, but more than that it is harmful to the Karaz Ankor on the larger scale.
Less lore means less powerful weapons and armor which means more dead dwarfs. So I ask you guys do the snippets we saw of the Ancestors indicate that they are the sorts to have an acceptable number of dwarf children eaten by trolls because the axe of their protector had only three runes and not five? I do not think they do.
So what is the alternative? The Ancestor Gods cannot teach past a certain level, they tried and they failed. That is not to say all their lore they did not teach is like that, material sciences obviously isn't, but they could have kept some bits secret so their descendants do not wander down the same blind alley they did, give them grounding and hope they solve the problem laterally in a way you cannot imagine, that does seem in line with some of the things we heard from them.
Lastly what might have caused the break in the chain of knowledge, the things they can do but not teach? Well the simplest is that their way of putting five runes on steel and the like requires one to be a living gods and after them there were no more living gods. Coming back to Durin, Thungi nudged and nudged, but his way of getting past the Consternation was not reproduceable because Durin was only mortal. The other alternative, and the one I know a lot of people here are not going to like, is 'the Ancestors learned these things from the Old Ones and as they were not space traveling life-seeding super-beings they could never match their own teachers'.
The reason I think the second is as likely as the first can be summed up thus
The Elves were taught their magic by the Slann
The Druids were taught magic by the Old Ones
The Dwarfs were taught their magic by their Ancestors who were just so damn dwarfy
Signed: A Dwarf Historian
Does the wider runesmithing know that there are examples of works that break the Rule of Three? Because there's a big difference between "this is possible, even if we don't know how yet" and "we don't even know if this is even theoretically possible but we're trying anyway". Iirc gromril chainmail was the first, something the Ancestors demonstrated and then left as a puzzle for their descendents to figure out, but I don't know if the Rule of Three is the same.
Dwarves aren't metal.
Biological things don't work like that.
Do not ingest essential oils. Do not expect detoxing to literally pull things out of your body. We are not cultivators either.
I mean they kind of do…. If you ingest harmfully substances like plastics they sometimes don't leave the body for years, or how smoking fills your lungs.
Also it's a dwarves magic, not their bodies that we need to question. Or rather the soul/ runesmithing channels. We didnt physically purify gromil to make adamant, so why would we physically purify our body to make an adamant dwarf?
If runesmithing uses these channels as we know it does, then impurities in the channels would impart themselves on the runes.
@soulcake
Could Snorri have studied the Ancestor drip with the Windsight Eye? Also will he get a chance to look at the Throne of Power with the Windsight Eye or any improved version of Windsight?
Does the wilder runesmithing know that there are examples of works that break the Rule of Three? Because there's a big difference between "this is possible, even if we don't know how yet" and "we don't even know if this is even theoretically possible but we're trying anyway". Iirc gromril chainmail was the first, something the Ancestors demonstrated and then left as a puzzle for their descendents to figure out, but I don't know if the Rule of Three is the same.
I think it would be rather arrogant of us to assume that Snori was the first Runesmith to the shown that axe. Odds are good a lot of people more senior than him have seen it and similar works.
The reason I think the second is as likely as the first can be summed up thus
The Elves were taught their magic by the Slann
The Druids were taught magic by the Old Ones
The Dwarfs were taught their magic by their Ancestors who were just so damn dwarfy
Signed: A Dwarf Historian
The Dark Shadows Campaign setting explicitly says, as I quoted a couple of months ago:
In time, the Old Ones chose the island of Albion as one of the locations to build their homes. Little is known of their settlements for few have ever visited Albion, let alone returned from this mysterious place. They forged an island paradise where the sun shone bright and the crops flourished. Gathering together the wisest and bravest individuals of each mortal race, they taught them the practice of magic and other skills. They demonstrated the secret of forging runes to the Dwarfs and to the Elves they taught the mastery of spellcasting.
@soulcake
Could Snorri have studied the Ancestor drip with the Windsight Eye? Also will he get a chance to look at the Throne of Power with the Windsight Eye or any improved version of Windsight?
With these new additions to the Movement of Things main path I wonder if we can manage to do part 5b before we get the Rhuniversity up and running. I mean that sounds like the kind of thing that would make that dragon Gontri more powerful though on the other side of things it is just the first project in the side chain so it might not produce much that is actionable.
The dragon gronti isn't an elemental so it's unlikely there'd be any benefit from that part of the side chain. Maybe if the anchor makes it easier to attach a deep magic tap to it but the heart is meant to be a later addition to the dragon anyway and 5b will probably finish itself with bonuses from movement while we finish siphoning.
Does the wilder runesmithing know that there are examples of works that break the Rule of Three? Because there's a big difference between "this is possible, even if we don't know how yet" and "we don't even know if this is even theoretically possible but we're trying anyway". Iirc gromril chainmail was the first, something the Ancestors demonstrated and then left as a puzzle for their descendents to figure out, but I don't know if the Rule of Three is the same.
@soulcake Quoting for visibility. Does the Brotherhood know the rule of three has been broken and it's a gromril chain situation or do people just not talk about the axe? Also do Thungni's weapons break the rule as well?
With these new additions to the Movement of Things main path I wonder if we can manage to do part 5b before we get the Rhuniversity up and running. I mean that sounds like the kind of thing that would make that dragon Gontri more powerful though on the other side of things it is just the first project in the side chain so it might not produce much that is actionable.
Before we gained bonus progress I think that finishing 5B would have got us to the next stage of the Constructs trait and so improved the gronti. However, now it may not take enough actions.
could we do a transformer type thing with the gronti? Not like have it turn into a vehicle but have one gronti just be an arm and another be the torso. Stuff like that. That way each arm can have some different runes on it. Or just have two gauntlets/ weapons welded or if permanent attachments trigger the three thing, latched on. I mean you can have armor, a weapon, and talismans with all different runes. So……. Feel like a puzzle with each piece being a different rune could work. But I'd be surprised if that hasn't been tried.
The dragon gronti isn't an elemental so it's unlikely there'd be any benefit from that part of the side chain. Maybe if the anchor makes it easier to attach a deep magic tap to it but the heart is meant to be a later addition to the dragon anyway and 5b will probably finish itself with bonuses from movement while we finish siphoning.
@soulcake Quoting for visibility. Does the Brotherhood know the rule of three has been broken and it's a gromril chain situation or do people just not talk about the axe? Also do Thungni's weapons break the rule as well?
could we do a transformer type thing with the gronti? Not like have it turn into a vehicle but have one gronti just be an arm and another be the torso. Stuff like that. That way each arm can have some different runes on it. Or just have two gauntlets/ weapons welded or if permanent attachments trigger the three thing, latched on. I mean you can have armor, a weapon, and talismans with all different runes. So……. Feel like a puzzle with each piece being a different rune could work. But I'd be surprised if that hasn't been tried.
Having seen how Grungni broke the Rule of Three, I think that the Brotherhood is misguided in its approach.
The way He did it was to prevent the apparent destructive interference produced when having too many runes on an item. The Brotherhood trying to find a material that can stand up to the destructive interference seems to be missing the point.
we dont nessecarily need to be able to use windsight on the runes themself. would be awesome, but not the only way. with good enough windsight we may be able to see how the material around the runes is reinforced/altered/strained under their power. if one solution is get better material, another may be change the runes in a way,through sligthly altered rituals, that puts less strain on the material. or maybe we need both.
or maybe im talking nonsense.
lets find out!
Well, I did say that I would be updating my list of Tables outlining various action plans. Same stipulations as before; Not all plans use all AP, and Research AP is assumed to be put into the Odd Wyrm's Blood.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
The Movement Of Things Pt. 6
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
Potential +1 towards Master Of The Odd
Finish up the Stationary Rune Of Siphoning, have an AP left to spare. Good for putting into Understanding The Master Rune Of Purification (2 actions needed right now), The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
The Movement Of Things Pt. 5b
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
Potential +1 towards Master Of The Odd, Mind For Constructs
Alternately, determine if it's possible to make a Mhonri like Gronti, and have an AP left to spare. Good for putting into Understanding The Master Rune Of Purification (2 actions needed right now), The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Compress a Combo (Adamant Maker)
3 General, 2 Master Of The Odd, 2 Soul Of The Earth
Potential +1 towards Master Of The Odd, Soul Of The Earth
By compressing the Rune Combo of Adamant Maker, once we finish Movement Of Things Pt. 6, we could potentially make an Adamant Smelter that has the Rune Of Siphoning on it to help the recharge rate of the Rune Array. I'm not exactly sure how Snorri and the Rule Of Pride feel about making a Master Rune'd item, then making a separate item with a compressed combo including that Master Rune though.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Once More With Smelting
3 General, 3 Peerless Production
Makes a new Adamant Smelter, 2~5 Overflow, potential +1 to Peerless Production.
Alternately, make another of the existing Adamant Smelter with anywhere from 2-5 Overflow. Helps buffer Snorri's Adamant reserves for when we make Khazagar's guardian Gronti.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Once More With Smelting
2 General, 1 Peerless Production
3/4 chance of making a new Adamant Smelter.
Alternately, we gamble a little bit on Peerless Production. This plan has a 3/4 chance of producing a new Adamant Smelter, a 1/4 chance of leaving the new Adamant Smelter at 1 action remaining, and leaves an open AP. Good for putting into Understanding The Master Rune Of Purification (2 actions needed right now), The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Understand the Master Rune Of Purification (Banner)
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
1 Overflow, Potential +1 to Master Of The Odd
Finish understanding the Banner form of the Master Rune Of Purification. My previous speculation, based on it's form in the Adamant Smelter, suggests that it could dispel incoming magic and retaliate in the form of heat blasts akin to those which melt Gromril and Adamant in the Adamant Smelter. This also leaves an open AP. Good for putting into The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Wardstones
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
Potential +1 to Master Of The Odd
Finish researching what the Rune on the Wardstones that isn't the Rune Of Valaya is. Depending on what it is, the result of this could be incorporated into the defenses of Khazagar automatically as Snorri and Karstah get to that stage of Khazagar's construction. This also leaves an open AP. Good for putting into The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Re-Warding Work
2 General, 1 Peerless Production
1~3 Overflow, Potential +1 to Peerless Production
Given the increased activity of the Fimir and threat of permanent Chaos rifts, whenever word of those reach us, this might not be a terrible idea. Getting a second reroll stored up might not be a bad idea. This also leaves an open AP. Good for putting into The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Mysterious Mystery Stones
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
3 Progress out of 18.
Re-Warding Work
1 General
1/2 chance of completion, 1/2 chance of leaving it at 1 action remaining. Potential +1 towards Peerless Production.
Given the increased activity of the Fimir and threat of permanent Chaos rifts, whenever word of those reach us, this might not be a terrible idea. There could even be potential synergy for working with the stones in same turn that Snorri puts up more wards on them?
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Mysterious Mystery Stones
3 General, 2 Master Of The Odd
5 Progress out of 18.
Given the increased activity of the Fimir and threat of permanent Chaos rifts, whenever word of those reach us, this might not be a terrible idea. While it doesn't store up any rerolls, it does give a strong start on working with the energy of the stones.
Project Name
Actions Spent
Other Notes
Khazagar
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer, 45 Influence
6 or 7 progress on Khazagar, depending on the Peerless Production coin flip. If the coin flip gives an extra progress, then it frees up an AP or reduces the Influence spending on a future turn.
Drakk Rearing
1 General, 1 Heir, 1 Retainer
3 Progress On Drakk Rearing.
Diction Direction Pt. 2/Secrets Of Light Pt. 2
2 General, 1 Master Of The Odd
Potential +1 to Master Of The Odd
This finishes research into whichever of the above is chosen. They've been sitting fallow for a long time. This also leaves an open AP. Good for putting into The Road To Anoqeyån Pt. 2 (1 action from being in 3 AP completion range), more Drakk Rearing, or starting on Understanding The Master Rune Of Thungni.
). Druin apprentices to his father, because at that point there is no one else to learn runes from, he has his apprenticeship, makes his journeyman piece, goes on his journey, comes back properly with a masterwork and then... what Thungi teaches him only part of his greater lore because he wants his son to reinvent the wheel on his own for some reason? I mean imagine if Snori did that to Snera 'right lass I am going to teach you some master runes, but not all the stuff I know because I want you do duplicate my efforts.' That is asshole behavior in a personal level, but more than that it is harmful to the Karaz Ankor on the larger scale.
