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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Depends if Soul gives great unclean ones a fire weakness, but they would also likely be trouble. They will likely have as much staying power, and they are very effective at weakening armour and damaging items.
While that's true, they're also relatively weak offensively (relatively because they're still Greater Demons), and a bunch of their stuff just flat out won't work on Snorri. Stone and magma can't exactly get sick, after all, and regeneration is a great counter to weaker damage over time effects.
 
This has almost certainly been theorised about, but I wonder if it might be possible to make huge a banner/idol-like runic item like the one that dries out the ground that takes the effect of Snorri's items and casts them out (in a diminished form) over a large group that makes his ash cloud survivable for allied armies, gives them a much weakened form of his Armour's effects ect.

Ideally, it would be the sort of thing that other T4/T5 equipment could be used with 'cuz having it be Snorri-only would be very wasteful.
There's been a few ideas thrown around for it yeah. Mostly some sort of compressed mountainsouled banner to at least let the hearthguard survive in the storm. Actually giving a lesser version of the gear combo is the solution I'd want to go for but I'm betting it'll take the Master Rune of the World that Was which is like 5 compression/understanding combos away lol.
 
Don't worry Cake. A chase scene with Benny Hill music playing in background is just fine as well.

After all, with how badly Snorri outclassed the enemy, victory was assured.
 
so...bring meteorfall hammer from the king next time we do air drop?

also, we were so lucky snorri actually lost an eye which caused snerra to make an anti item eye.

imagine the rolls if snorri did not have his new eye?
 
Stand by for DawiFall

Great update as always Soul! I understand that writers block is a pain in the neck that deserves to be locked in a school locker and thrown into a lake. Its good to see that you're overcoming it though!
 
I doubt I could remove the latter entirely, because man she was not prepared to deal with your build, but yeah. As you can see I circumvented it by just.... not writing it. Was seeing Snorri wail on the Meargh till she died not what people wanted to see? Probably, yall worked hard to get here and I'm more upset that I can't make the payoff fulfilling.


Tis the time to write from the Meargh POV. The despair and helpless rage, and panicked fear as this untouchable engine of destruction kills everything she hides behind, breaks every tool, ignores or swats aside every spell. The Meargh is the stupid teenager that just got laid facing Jason, she's the Imperial guard squad facing a daemon prince with flashlights, she is any demon facing the fucking Doom Slayer one on one. The realization that she is helpless before this thing and it WILL kill her, that she tries to run her arrogance shattered by fear. But before she can escape Snorri just brings the entire fucking fortress down on all their heads, and a minute later he digs his way out dragging the Meargh's shattered burned corpse behind him.
 
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Tis the time to write from the Meargh POV. The despair and helpless rage, and panicked fear as this untouchable engine of destruction kills everything she hides behind, breaks every tool, ignores or swats aside every spell. The Meargh is the stupid teenager that just got laid facing Jason, she's the Imperial guard squad facing a daemon prince with flashlights, she is any demon facing the fucking Doom Slayer one on one. The realization that she is helpless before this thing and it WILL kill her, that she tries to run her arrogance shattered by fear. But before she can escape Snorri just brings the entire fucking fortress down on all their heads, and a minute later he digs his way out dragging the Meargh's shattered burned corpse behind him.
Love this idea of Snorri as a horror movie monster, it really does fit. If any Fimir survive this and the subsequent sieges, I could see Snorri becoming a Boogeyman. "Remember to brush your teeth eat your vegetables clean your room pay proper homage to the Dark Gods regularly, or Snorri Giftgiver will fall through your ceiling, kill you, and free your slaves."
 
Love this idea of Snorri as a horror movie monster, it really does fit. If any Fimir survive this and the subsequent sieges, I could see Snorri becoming a Boogeyman. "Remember to brush your teeth eat your vegetables clean your room pay proper homage to the Dark Gods regularly, or Snorri Giftgiver will fall through your ceiling, kill you, and free your slaves."

Quite appropriate for Snorri to finally flex Spooky Snorri!
 
Love this idea of Snorri as a horror movie monster, it really does fit. If any Fimir survive this and the subsequent sieges, I could see Snorri becoming a Boogeyman. "Remember to brush your teeth eat your vegetables clean your room pay proper homage to the Dark Gods regularly, or Snorri Giftgiver will fall through your ceiling, kill you, and free your slaves."
No. To those of good and honorable heart he is known as Snorri Giftgiver.

To those of evil he has another name...

Krampus!
 
Well damn we did good work though losing three hearth guards make's me sad. But beside that we killed the matriarch pretty fast honestly.

Also really like how Kharstah is growing into her role as our heir I really enjoy that.
 
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Love your analysis, but regarding the Meargh's items, it believe it the Changer of the Ways should be accounted for as an inseparable part of the Staff she wielded.
Said staff giving her a '+20 Tzeentch Staff' base level bonus (and +15 to magic rounds but this isn't about that).

So any given round of combat, a roll of 5 or higher on a D18 means the staff is neutral effect or better overall, than not having it.
The ability absolutely has a chance of being debilitating, but lacking the ability would equal lacking the staff, which would place her at an even greater disadvantage since her base bonus would not be -10 compared to Snorri, it would be -30.
Likewise, going the other way around. She had an equal chance of the staff providing a massive total bonus of +45 or greater, up to a maximum of +60.
That's is potentially half our entire bonus statline right there in a single item.
It's potentially insane, is what it is.
Which, playing double-or-nothing with a Tzeentch themed staff of sorcery, is pretty much on point I feel.

Anyway, just my two cents that came to mind when seeing your comprehensive post.
You're right that having the staff and Changing of the Ways and rolling a 5 or higher is better than not having the staff at all. The best case for her would have been to not have Changing of the Ways but still have the staff's bonus. Lol, at least at that point her bonus wouldn't be jumping all over the place willy nilly.

My own perspective when approaching my analysis was obviously different, because I was treating Snorri's score as the score she needed to break even against, for the sake of probability comparisons.

I think that eliminates the argument that its better than Zharrgal given the current context of our other equipment (better stats, set bonus and not currently capped)
Pretty much. The Eye does have a synergy with Mhorni; if the Eye's damage activates on a round, and then Mhorni also activates, Snorri can do 4 points of Equipment Damage instead of 2.

4 Equipment Damage a round is really really high in the grand scheme of the system as a whole. That's enough to instantly delete the Tzeentch staff, or a lesser tier but more sturdily built item.

Yeah, but this was a Maergh in one of the outlying cities, not one of the inner ones or the capital. The fact that she was this strong doesn't bode well for what the stronger Maerghs will be like.
If they follow a build close to this lady's, they're still pretty screwed. Even if the bonus is higher than Snorri (and I'm talking on the order of +25 or even a full tier higher), he still wins eventually.

Okay let me put this into context.

If the next Meargh we fight has stats of 165 odd then BungieOni calculated that it would take 11 rounds for Snorri to lose.

Given Snorris DoT to equipment that is enought to destroy about 14 hp worth of equipment. This is twice what the Meargh we just fought brought.
That is enough time to destroy 100+ points worth of stats flipping the fight far into our favour. It would probably be an even fight after two or three rounds, and based on that Snorri would win in round 8 or 9 with all existing damage regened after the Mearghs DPS fell below what was needed to reliably damage Snorri.
This isn't considering that SB also passively kills off supporting benefit from minions that can't withstand the storm.
In other words, if all future Mearghs are more or less on the same build as this one, giving them all an extra Mythical item more than that one we just killed wouldn't even give them even odds against Snorri.

Snorri hard countered this build so well that I don't actually think we need to worry about individual Mearghs anymore as they're going to be largely comparable but if they're lucky then their build will be more shifted towards previously cast hard to disrupt rituals.
The actual danger coming up in the future is that we're probably going to have to fight the Shard of Hashut and the Meargh that bound it at the same time. Not because that Meargh is probably much more powerful, but because the action economy could double their DPS.
Pretty much this. And like, as I mentioned in my original post UlseDovThur, a 165 combat bonus is only somewhat consistent. Specifically because of standard deviation stuff.

Out-dpsing the regen is also pretty possible, Snorri regens 1 every other round, whereas the Meargh regened 2-4 60% of the time every round (or she would have if that amulet wasn't destroyed so early). Snorri is clearly on the low side of what is possible as far as Regen goes as its approximately 1/4 the expected regen rate. So I'm pretty interested in seeing how we could get more single target damage in the future.
Wiggles hand. You are right Snorri is kind of on the low side, in raw number terms.

My perspective is a little different because I think in terms of system interactions, because the way I look at it is that Snorri cannot go higher in his regen without breaking the basic core loop of the combat system. If he's regenerating one wound every round, or two wounds every other round, he can't be killed by any enemy without multi-wound effects. He becomes immortal, and the 165 meatstack I mentioned prior? It stops being a problem.

Multi-wound effects have only really shown up on Grudged Artillery and Traps. Or having a DoT that can work to cancel some of the Regen.

Amusingly Snorri fighting himself in a mirror match is a fight with a lot more back and forth to it, since Snorri does actually have items vulnerable to Equipment Damage and the DoT could slowly kill him.
 
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Wiggles hand. Snorri is kind of on the low side, in raw number terms.

My perspective is a little different, because the way I look at it is that Snorri cannot go higher in his regen without breaking the basic core loop of the combat system. If he's regenerating one wound every round, or two wounds every other round, he can't be killed by any enemy without multi-wound effects. He becomes immortal, and the 165 meatstack I mentioned prior? It stops being a problem.

Multi-wound effects have only really shown up on Grudged Artillery and Traps. Or having a DoT that can work to cancel some of the Regen.

Amusingly Snorri fighting himself in a mirror match is a fight with a lot more back and forth to it, since Snorri does actually have items vulnerable to Equipment Damage and the DoT could slowly kill him.
Eh I think you might be right in that there is some degree of restricting what we can get both because its easier to balance one offs on enemies (especially since Dwarves are good at getting rid of other peoples toys) and because its not as thematically appropriate for Dwarves to posses it. However the Meargh has opened the door to show that its possible and equally Snorri has shown that no its still possible to kill them despite that, you just to hit some need additional hoops by destroying the item, dispelling the spell or getting a better weapon ahead of time.


How much HP do you think Snorris gear would have if fighting himself. I'd probably basically double what we saw out of the Mearghs.
Removing the Daemon debuff, bonus for solid dwarven construction when the runes are most effective against shoddy work. The fact that Gromril armour is kind of known for surviving things that killed the user and we've gone beyond that with Adamant.
 
Eh I think you might be right in that there is some degree of restricting what we can get both because its easier to balance one offs on enemies (especially since Dwarves are good at getting rid of other peoples toys) and because its not as thematically appropriate for Dwarves to posses it. However the Meargh has opened the door to show that its possible and equally Snorri has shown that no its still possible to kill them despite that, you just to hit some need additional hoops by destroying the item, dispelling the spell or getting a better weapon ahead of time.


How much HP do you think Snorris gear would have if fighting himself. I'd probably basically double what we saw out of the Mearghs.
Removing the Daemon debuff, bonus for solid dwarven construction when the runes are most effective against shoddy work. The fact that Gromril armour is kind of known for surviving things that killed the user and we've gone beyond that with Adamant.
The T5 staff had 4/4 hp, and the T4 items had 3/3. Hogrimm I think had some 2/2s and 3/3s. He might have had a 4/4.

My thought is that Daemonsmithing only removed 1 max hp from each item and that the standard is Tier = HP. That seems the most straightforward.

The following is me thinking aloud:

For Snorri's own equipment, BA is Unbreakable; it doesn't have health because it simply isn't a valid target for Equipment Damage. The most straightforward estimate would put the rest of his equipment as 4/4s and Skarren at 5/5.

This does ignore material composition however: Pure Gromril is breakable, but Adamant is specifically called out as basically indestructible by any forces known to Snorri. I'm not fully certain how to render this mechanically. Perhaps there is simply a 'you must be this tall' threshold before damage can even start to happen.

Dwarven craft as a quality thing is also likely relevant.

So, in answer to your question, if I was to make a really rough ballpark estimate lets say Dwarven craft quality adds +1, and Adamant adds +2. That means Zharrgal has 7/7 health and Skarren has 8/8, and the Eye has around 5/5 due to Dwarven Craft. But I don't really like this estimate. I'd want to discuss with Soul what his thoughts on equipment health would be. Also I'd want to do Testing.
 
So the Dwarven version of Christmas might have Snorri the Silver Comet in place of Star of Betlehem.

Wherever a platling will go outside and see a falling star, their parents will say: "Quick, wish for a Grudge to be stricken!" and promptly imagine Snorri falling with all his rage on some blighted enemy's fortress.

The saying "Fell like a Silver Comet" may come to mean an incredible stroke of luck helping solve a problem, or a disaster in your enemy's rank.
 
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The T5 staff had 4/4 hp, and the T4 items had 3/3. Hogrimm I think had some 2/2s and 3/3s. He might have had a 4/4.

My thought is that Daemonsmithing only removed 1 max hp from each item and that the standard is Tier = HP. That seems the most straightforward.

The following is me thinking aloud:

For Snorri's own equipment, BA is Unbreakable; it doesn't have health because it simply isn't a valid target for Equipment Damage. The most straightforward estimate would put the rest of his equipment as 4/4s and Skarren at 5/5.

This does ignore material composition however: Pure Gromril is breakable, but Adamant is specifically called out as basically indestructible by any forces known to Snorri. I'm not fully certain how to render this mechanically. Perhaps there is simply a 'you must be this tall' threshold before damage can even start to happen.

Dwarven craft as a quality thing is also likely relevant.

So, in answer to your question, if I was to make a really rough ballpark estimate lets say Dwarven craft quality adds +1, and Adamant adds +2. That means Zharrgal has 7/7 health and Skarren has 8/8, and the Eye has around 5/5 due to Dwarven Craft. But I don't really like this estimate. I'd want to discuss with Soul what his thoughts on equipment health would be. Also I'd want to do Testing.
So if I understand right, that health would only become relevant if the weapon beats the baseline damage check to even hurt adamant. I guess you could cut skarren off but the runes are on adamant as well so it's not like the important part is less breakable than BA either.
 
So if I understand right, that health would only become relevant if the weapon beats the baseline damage check to even hurt adamant. I guess you could cut skarren off but the runes are on adamant as well so it's not like the important part is less breakable than BA either.
I specifically rule BA as a special case, specifically because it specifies in its rule text that it is Unbreakable. Stone + Adamant seems to have done something special to it compared to Snorri's other kit.

I think Skarren is more breakable than BA, but like... we have no idea really what's really needed to see that start happening.

E: ... man I used 'specific' a lot there, oops.
 
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Things would probably have to go very, very wrong. Unbelievably wrong. Maybe a specifically designed Nurgle rot plague?
My own best guess? Direct exposure to overwhelming amounts of dhar/pure chaos might do it. I'm talking air so thick you drown levels of exposure though. Other than that, you probably need to be an enemy like the Dragon Grimnir killed or something of equal or higher strength/metaphysical weight to damage it.
 
For all the awesome things made out of the various things our main mineral man has killed... I kind of want to create something intentionally banal but still mundanely useful thing out of the Meargh purely out of spite.
Did anyone notice that we Santa Claused down a chimney(that we made) and gave everyone inside a present? But since they were all naughty we turned them into charcoal?
We even come with our own Krampus.
 
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