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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Have their been any good reasons posted for having a constant rotating cycle of strangers live in our home? Besides "Santa's workshop" memes. Because it's pretty much won but I don't really get why exactly.
Mm, well...why not? Once the renovation's done there'll be space enough to accommodate them, so if they're going to have to come over here every day to learn we may as well just house them here, save them the travel time and us having to wait for them all to gather. Runeiversity memes aside, there is value in keeping Runesmiths in proximity to one another, as opposed to scattered across taverns and inns and such. Makes exchanging ideas easier, makes Runesmiths easier to find for everyone else, etc. I mean, we could achieve the same effect by building some kind of dorm or something, but...why bother going to the pointless effort if this works fine?
 
I think you're reading far too much into this, and just how politically motivated Snorri is. Most of our political actions, in character, have more been Snorri doing what he thinks will help the most and ignoring the politics. He's not some political animal despite the fact that his actions do have political consequences, and I also think you're overestimating how political what doing this will be, as are the people going on about the runelord school or whatever.

There's a large difference between living with his daughter & successor, and people that have sworn their lives to us who we have in turn sworn to provide for, and then also living with dozens of strangers who've come by to learn a rune or two then leave.
Edit: This is basically turning Snorri's home into a hotel. It's not logical, and for those after the whole "gift giver generosity" angle, it's not any more or less generous than setting up something for them outside, nor does it encourage cooperation any more than setting up a dedicated dorm outside. And those expecting this to somehow flip the runesmith paradigm and have everyone working on everything together haven't been following the quest, honestly. Frankly I don't get why it's a vote in the first place.
No, that was a meta "we - the questors". The thread is very politically motivated as we're aware of and actively trying to shape Snorri's decisions to minimise or prevent the end of the Golden age.
After all, the question was why so many people are choosing to vote for it, an OoC choice.

Theres also a large difference living with your successor and living with your successor and a small army of bodyguards. I don't mean to slippery slope here, but I think this is a smaller jump than some we've made previously.
I didn't mention generosity and logic probably went out the window around the time Snorri got enough people coming to learn that there's probably always some dwarf banging on an anvil at all hours of the day. I'd rather live permanently in a hotel rather than a forge, so theres probably some "Dwarves are not humans" odd thought processes and priorities going on. What's important is that if this where really so objectionable to Snorri, it wouldn't be up for a vote.
I don't know how political you think I think it is, or if you think that theres some minimum level of 'political-ness' below which I wouldn't care about. I'm just sticking with the update:
Your southern colleagues may grumble and growl, but when have they not?
This is setting a new precedent. Dwarf politics and runesmith especially are always slow and conservative measured in centuries and millenia, on that scale I think as a precedent this is pretty significant.

I don't really think this is a particularly good angle to discuss it on because I suspect we actually have different interpretations of what it means for a thing to be Snorri's home. And I just don't see anything objectionable about setting up some dormitories or smaller forges on Snorri's property, which is a giant hill and all the ground beneath it. I think that Snorri's 'Home' has more in common with a palace complex where a huge amount of work gets done there and its almost coincidental that its where someone lives, and I think embracing would also involve significant expansion of the current home, rather than Snorri putting up some spare beds in his bedroom.
As soulcake put it here:
The vote with the Workshop is also saying something about what Snorri considers his home. Karstah will always have her Workshop in Snorri's home, but is your Home just a part of the Workshop, or is it the whole of the Workshop.
This may be the important thing to discuss as the source of our contentions.
it seems unlikely we'd get a vote with nothing but bad things as one of the options. Further Yorri seems to be getting closer and closer to telling us about what the hell he's got going on, and this seems likely to help make that happen. I agree we don't know what it is, but it seems to make narrative sense that Yorri would say or do something beneficial for us for listening to him here.
I don't care if its unlikely and I don't care if people vote to reject it to get closer to Yorri. I just think that suggesting 'the mystery box will be good because all votes must be balanced' is a valid reason to vote to reject it, is a terrible idea.

That is the start and end of what I've contributed to this part of the vote.

E:
I don't even get what you're trying to argue at this point. Snorri isn't doing this, or most things, with a political motivation. Wether or not others take his actions as politically motivated is irrelevant. Like your earlier statement of "opportunities that Snorri sees where he can thread the political needle to make Runesmiths more cooperative are extremely rare so grabbing a little bit of ground here is a pretty rare opportunity." makes no sense with Snorri's characterisation. He's not looking at this as a political opportunity. He's not actively looking for every chance to "thread the political needle". He's trying to decide which way is best to stop these idiots from napping inside his home. You're reading far too much into this, and likely also projecting your out of character motivations onto a pretty apolitical Snorri.
Hey, just letting you know, make sure to check who you're quoting as you're actually speaking with multiple people and that statement came from me not DragonParadox
 
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Mm, well...why not? Once the renovation's done there'll be space enough to accommodate them, so if they're going to have to come over here every day to learn we may as well just house them here, save them the travel time and us having to wait for them all to gather. Runeiversity memes aside, there is value in keeping Runesmiths in proximity to one another, as opposed to scattered across taverns and inns and such. Makes exchanging ideas easier, makes Runesmiths easier to find for everyone else, etc. I mean, we could achieve the same effect by building some kind of dorm or something, but...why bother going to the pointless effort if this works fine?
1. It doesn't give the possibility of Karstah realizing that she managed to work up the bravery to request to put her workshop in our Workshop to be seen with us placing dozens of Runesmiths in our workshop, temporarily as it might be

2. Why go through the pointless effort of placing them in our workshop when we can place them in the town?

3. As much as it might be a shocker, some people might want the thread to not take every single damnable opportunity to break every aspect of dwarf culture over its knees.
 
Hey, just letting you know, make sure to check who you're quoting as you're actually speaking with multiple people and that statement came from me not DragonParadox
My bad on that then, but I still stand by what I said any implication that Snorri is trying to play some sort of political game with this and treating it as a chance to push an agenda is ridiculous and ignoring characterisation thus far.
Edit: I think my big issue here is that, rather than wanting to influence runesmith/dwarven culture, the thread is progressing more to wanting to fundamentally alter it, and is being ignorant (wilfully or otherwise) as to how difficult that would be, how likely that is to turn out bad for Snorri, or even just aren't aware of how significant what they want is.
The rune library idea and the rune college one or whatever, it's not happening and won't ever happen but people are still chasing it with their votes. I do like us encouraging some more altruistic acts, but I hate everyone desperately wanting to flip dwarf culture entirely, both in general principle and on the basis that it's completely futile.
 
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My bad on that then, but I still stand by what I said any implication that Snorri is trying to play some sort of political game with this and treating it as a chance to push an agenda is ridiculous and ignoring characterisation thus far.
Thats fine, I'm not really trying to convince you.
You asked for a explanation of reasons people wanted to vote for Embrace. I hope I've provided that and explained those reasons well. If you don't agree after that then whatever.

And no, I don't think anyone has suggested this a deliberate political move on behalf of Snorri. However it may be by the Questors.
And even if Snorri is doing things for apolitical reasons it can still have political consequences, for example, killing the troll caused the Fimir campaign to get more reinforcements and sending the Minor south made others from Kraka Drakk follow it.
E:
Edit: I think my big issue here is that, rather than wanting to influence runesmith/dwarven culture, the thread is progressing more to wanting to fundamentally alter it, and is being ignorant (wilfully or otherwise) as to how difficult that would be, how likely that is to turn out bad for Snorri, or even just aren't aware of how significant what they want is.
The rune library idea and the rune college one or whatever, it's not happening and won't ever happen but people are still chasing it with their votes. I do like us encouraging some more altruistic acts, but I hate everyone desperately wanting to flip dwarf culture entirely, both in general principle and on the basis that it's completely futile.
Ah, look we've been over this before.

Questors trying to write in and force this can have those bad results you're thinking of, however Snorri has been doing this for centuries, he won't deliberately propose bad ideas and if left to his own devices un-micromanged will generally navigate to the best possible result. If Snorri thought that this would turn out disastrously, he wouldn't entertain the idea.
 
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Well let's fix that then.
@soulcake What have the Burudin been doing WRT their mission statement we'd have heard of as "Grand Runelord Stuff"?
From the Runelords you know of in quest:
Angkra's created the Wall of Shields, a Runic Shield that creates a swarm of magical golden shields that independently intercepts and returns enemy fire back at them as explosive magical projectiles.
Hammerspite has killed 3 greater daemons of Nurgle singlehandedly over his life.
Alric Thungnisson has created suits of Heirloom armour that have indirectly led to the rise of several Royal Clans, and he's held back a literal army of Daemons from breaching a mountain pass more than once.
ETC.
The kind of grand works you expect like cracking open the earth and creating mountains requires an Anvil of Doom, or you know, your armour. They don't have a readily available source of Runic Power to fuel their stuff so they work with that limitation in mind.
I imagine Aldrhun and Agrurhun are the same thing.
You would be incorrect. Aldrhun is* a thing, but I used it incorrectly in this context. I meant to use Agrurhun.

*will be

EDIT: finished the earlier reply
 
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Angkra's created the Wall of Shields, a Runic Shield that creates a swarm of magical golden shields that independently intercepts and returns enemy fire back at them as explosive magical projectiles.
Sounds like that pulls from the Master Rune of the Ancestral Aegis, plus Parrying for the reflection, plus the Master Rune of Spellspite or something like it.
 
They don't have a readily available source of Runic Power to fuel their stuff so they work with that limitation in mind.
Sharing a means to tap into deep magic would be huge then huh. Probably lead to some projects that are significant on more than just the personal/tactical level. If you don't mind saying, how much do they know about Adamant?
 
Sharing a means to tap into deep magic would be huge then huh. Probably lead to some projects that are significant on more than just the personal/tactical level. If you don't mind saying, how much do they know about Adamant?
you have no idea IC. Snorri wouldn't be surprised though. The Ancestors cracked it and a good number of them are literally the children or grandchildren of Thungni.
 
you have no idea IC. Snorri wouldn't be surprised though. The Ancestors cracked it and a good number of them are literally the children or grandchildren of Thungni.
Actually what kind of father do we think thungni is? Does he play... Stoneball (?) With his kids? Or more of a camping vibe? Maybe he goes fishing! With magical rune lightning but still.
 
you have no idea IC. Snorri wouldn't be surprised though. The Ancestors cracked it and a good number of them are literally the children or grandchildren of Thungni.
I was expecting some degree, what with Whitebeard wearing it, was mostly just curious about how joining would affect our work & commitments with the Brotherhood. If they had reached the same level or if they were still using the "old" method, if there would be any clash of oaths etc. Suppose we'll find out if we join.
 
Actually what kind of father do we think thungni is? Does he play... Stoneball (?) With his kids? Or more of a camping vibe? Maybe he goes fishing! With magical rune lightning but still.
Thungni is the best Dwarf dad, given the varied and different definitions of what is the best Dwarf dad, but all can agree He would be the best alongside every other male Ancestor save Gazul. Snorri wouldn't dare assume, but given the diverse opinions of His children and His otherwise light hand, he's willing to be a few gold that Thungni isn't exactly very controlling compared to most other Dwarf dads. Others may argue otherwise and blame the kids of [Insert Radical or Conservative] views for not understanding the true message of their Father's vision.
 
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Thungni is the best Dwarf dad, given the varied and different definitions of what is the best Dwarf dad, but all can agree He would be the best alongside every other male Ancestor save Gazul. Snorri wouldn't dare assume, but given the diverse opinions of His children and His otherwise light hand, he's willing to be a few gold that Thungni isn't exactly very controlling compared to most other Dwarf dads. Others may argue otherwise and blame the kids of [Insert Radical or Conservative] views for not understanding the true message of their Father's vision.
I am now imagening father's day in the thungni house hold. His conservative son gives him a perfectly carved rune of stone, beautiful and precise. And his radical Son gives him a weird, squiggly rune that makes ale taste like a ham sandwich.

And he couldn't be prouder of both of them.
 
[X] [Burudin:] No:

[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations: In removing one problem, that being the overcrowding of your home, you have created another. Perhaps it is no concern of yours, but you will do what you can to find a way to house them now that squatting in your home is no longer an option. Unlocks further options.
 
It's nice to be reminded that Gloin has a good enough head on his shoulder to see the good sense of your request.
...I can see Whitebeard making a beeline towards the Gronti and Contingent and say, upon taking a look at the Gronti, "Doesn't look like him, what an Umgak likeness."
pursuing it'll only be something I do after I'm done with what's in front of me right now."
...maybe there are records from Karak Zorn?
Indeed Runes are the only form of magic your folk generally tolerate near their person. So all the spells the books describe are less valuable to you than what they're meant to do.
In this times, runes are agreed as magic? Or is this just knowledge sprak8ng its mind for Gift Giver?
He beseeches Valaya for her protection, coming to the conclusion that he's long past the point of needing her wisdom.
...yeah Valaya does not know athing about flying underneath a creature...but an item or pyramid? There is...a maybe anyway.
Blood for blood, deed for deed.
If it was Life for Life, instead of Deed by Deed, i would have wrote in capital LOK'THAR OGAR!
It is a great pity that the joyous mood brought about by Karstah's success was cut short by such grim news.
...no, Gloin?...Gimli!!???
the burial vault of Clan Ironarm open and shut, but rather than the burial of a King, it is the Ancestor of one.
Oohhhh, Moira has passed.
"What of you then Lord Klausson, will you be joining the campaign when you've recuperated? I must admit I wouldn't mind seeing your work in action. The reports from Karag Dum, while telling, are a poor substitute for a live viewing."
Gehahahahahahaha, its bren along time indeed since we have that action pack moment.
Karstah remembers nodding, but she isn't sure when she fell unconscious. Nevertheless, she wakes up in the Temple of Valaya two days later with a matron tutting down at her.
...Snorri paniced and sprinted fastwalk towards the temple heheehehehehe
The both of you fall silent, content to watch as one Silverbearer demonstrates his abilities by turning the feather of one wing into a shimmering sheet of steel blades in front of a skeptical-looking group of Thanes.
...so wrhavr the Silverbearers more akin to Snorri in his Silver Ancestor aspect?
What in Grungni's name are you doing Thungnisson, dragging my apprentice into your tomfoolery?"
...im now of the mind that Yorri is a Durinsson, Son of Durin Thungnisson.
the purpose of Durin's order with their schemes and beliefs?"
...Durin's Order? What is it?
Durin's stated goal for founding the Burudin was to gather the greatest Runesmiths in the Guild together on a regular basis to, in his words, "push the art of Runecraft forward." It
Oh its explained on the next paragraph.
Durin learned from the lessons he gained from the Burudin," Yorri says with a scoff.
...wha, now im of the mind again that Yorri is Durins student.

[x] [Home:] Embrace
[x] [Burudin:] No:
 
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1. It doesn't give the possibility of Karstah realizing that she managed to work up the bravery to request to put her workshop in our Workshop to be seen with us placing dozens of Runesmiths in our workshop, temporarily as it might be

2. Why go through the pointless effort of placing them in our workshop when we can place them in the town?

3. As much as it might be a shocker, some people might want the thread to not take every single damnable opportunity to break every aspect of dwarf culture over its knees.
1. I don't really think us letting some Runesmiths lodge in our workshop for a bit does anything to invalidate or take away from Karstah's position as Snorri's heir. She's mature enough not to see this as some kind of betrayal or threat to her position or whatever.

2. How is letting them lodge in our workshop any more pointless then building an entirely new building to house them, or telling them to kick rocks and figure something out themselves? If they're going to be coming her every day to learn we may as well save them the walk.

3. If this was some absurd divergence from runesmith/dwarf culture I don't think Snorri would've come up with it himself. It probably errs a bit on the radical side, but at worst it'd probably just be another little thing on the pile of other weird things we do.
 
1. I don't really think us letting some Runesmiths lodge in our workshop for a bit does anything to invalidate or take away from Karstah's position as Snorri's heir. She's mature enough not to see this as some kind of betrayal or threat to her position or whatever.

2. How is letting them lodge in our workshop any more pointless then building an entirely new building to house them, or telling them to kick rocks and figure something out themselves? If they're going to be coming her every day to learn we may as well save them the walk.

3. If this was some absurd divergence from runesmith/dwarf culture I don't think Snorri would've come up with it himself. It probably errs a bit on the radical side, but at worst it'd probably just be another little thing on the pile of other weird things we do.
[ ] [Future:] The Workshop
The most daring. Effectively telling the world you are your Master's heir with all the expectations and prestige that come with being the successor to the Gift Giver; to be the hand that, on that unthinkable day, he passes the torch to when his time has come. Such a relationship is usually taken by a parent and their child.
Letting a Runesmith set up shop in your Workshop is telling the world that said Runesmith is your heir. This makes Karstah's placement much less special.

They're Runesmiths. If they can't walk the miniscule distance from Khazid Okraz (which was set up to be within walking distance of our Workshop) then they don't deserve the Runes. It is simple as that.

It is an absurd divergence, for the reason I listed above. Lodging Runesmiths in your Workshop is an extremely intimate affair, this dilutes that value.
 
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