RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

Binge-Reader · May 12, 2021

ugh we can't just do the traditional option with the req that people who learn also have to teach it since that gets close to teaching our vision not Thugni's.

BelligerentGnu · May 12, 2021

soulcake said:
The coming meeting of your peers amazingly enough is not what dominates your mind. Or at least it no longer had.

Weird tense here.

"it isn't any longer"?

soulcake said:
and speakers of both your Can

Clan

soulcake said:
I would shame myself and my Clan if I did nothing less

Anything less

soulcake said:
It was not without purpose, and what was destroyed she replaced with better, truer ways. Valaya understood our people better than even ourselves. You look the type to try and change things, such is the nature of youth I suppose, but be aware of this. Things are done for reasons, they may not be good ones, but those reasons need to be addressed one way or another."

I'm worried now. Are we missing something?

soulcake said:
But marvelling at the beauty of infrastructural ingenuity was-

-actually, this was the perfect time for it really.

Ah, dwarves, and specifically Snorri. Never change.

soulcake said:
It is altogether nothing out of the ordinary, with nowhere near the level of the Runic complexity of a Hold like Gunbad or Izril, or with the clever mechanisms and traps of Zhufbar and Varn's engineers

So weire to remember that KaK is a young hold at this point.

soulcake said:
[ ] Gromthi Rinri: Hearth
[ ] Gromthi Rinri: Home
[ ] Gromthi Rinri: Healing

Oh gods this is so much worse than the equivalent Gazul vote.

I'm going to vote for Home, on the basis that runes that represent abstract concepts are both rare and powerful.

soulcake said:
"The Zornish Clans, a surprise for everyone involved I imagine," you say with a nod.

"It was a long time coming," she corrects, "Tungaz no doubt overstepped his bounds."

You raise a brow, the unspoken question obvious to the both of you.

"Suffice it to say that His Highness was a bit too fond of the Rights of the Old Kings even before he found himself sat upon Zorn's throne. I can only imagine what such a position did to worsen his behaviour," she says with a scoff.

"If I may ask, it sounds as if you have a history."

"I have a history with his type," she corrects again, "but that business is behind me now and hopefully forever

GODDAMMIT BRYNNA, SPILL THE FRICKIN BEANS ALREADY!

soulcake said:
The mages of Saphery are loath to give away any material that's been in circulation for less than two centuries, at least not without a great deal of political or monetary concessions. That tome there was published only 120 years ago," another, lighter, voice replies.

I really love the way this quest makes the elser races sense of time feel normal.

Also, hoo boy. This should be a doozy.

soulcake said:
counter for a heart meal

Hearty

soulcake said:
the survival of the untainted their subsequent clearing by Gazul

I think you're missing a word or two here.

Regarding the other two votes:

Snorri presents as himself. To hell with the idea of becoming a political animal or someone who shrinks from their own opinions. We're the goddamned Gift-Giver.

And I'm torn on the teaching/book thing. On the one hand, you're not going to get many better opportunities to push through written records.

But it genuinely feels like a step too far - just un-dwarfy. I'm leaning just teach.

aceraptor · May 12, 2021

Written is unorthodox or outright radical at the best of times. This is not the best of times. Remember folks, the Frundar managed to steal enough about Runecraft to try aping it. The strictures of Thungi state quite strictly that the unworthy must not be allowed to learn Runecraft.

Even the best of cyphers can be broken. Books can be stolen.

With the close call they had at Dum, going for written dissemination of the knowledge would be a step too far. Especially with how the Runelords are bound to be even more paranoid about keeping the secrecy of Runecraft.

TimEd · May 12, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
I dunno if there's a compromise on security for the book if we put down basically an engineering manual and then just said "Put a rune that does _____ at location X".

Don't forget that the runes needed for the Chain Forger are both original Snorri creations. You cannot just

Dark as Silver said:
open it up to Runesmith/Runelords who already might know an acceptable rune

do this.

There is no other "acceptable rune" for rumesmiths/lords aside from what Snorri created. Said runesmith would have to create an entirely new setup from the bones of the Chain Forger to even start experimenting on rune combinations which would accomplish the task.

Snorri might as well just post the Chain Forger in public and have all the runesmiths look at how it works and have them try to recreate it. It would be leaving them a challenge similar the challenge of it's end product of gromril chain, which would be a dick move on many levels.

Dark as Silver · May 12, 2021

TimEd said:
Don't forget that the runes needed for the Chain Forger are both original Snorri creations. You cannot just

do this.

There is no other "acceptable rune" for rumesmiths/lords aside from what Snorri created. Said runesmith would have to create an entirely new setup from the bones of the Chain Forger to even start experimenting on rune combinations which would accomplish the task.

Snorri might as well just post the Chain Forger in public and have all the runesmiths look at how it works and have them try to recreate it. It would be leaving them a challenge similar the challenge of it's end product of gromril chain, which would be a dick move on many levels.

Dunno if I agree with that.
Both the runes we used are Snorri originals. I don't think thats the same as them being the only runes that could work.
If theres some dwarf out there who's done nothing for centuries except combine and understand increasing powerful MFlame runes of some kind, why couldn't that be a substitute for Forgeflame?

TimEd · May 12, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Dunno if I agree with that.
Both the runes we used are Snorri originals. I don't think thats the same as them being the only runes that could work.
If theres some dwarf out there who's done nothing for centuries except combine and understand increasing powerful MFlame runes of some kind, why couldn't that be a substitute for Forgeflame?

And would that same dwarf also happen to coincidentally have the right experiences, experimentation (success or failure is debatable) results, along with mastery of gromril's "wire" properties to make the Rune of Anneling?

Do not forget that Snorri is an anomaly regarding his workings with gromril (Mainly due to our armor). It is still a rare and expensive material whose properties when made thin enough to be a wire can only ever really practiced when attempting to find the secret of gromril wire, which was currently thought of as a technological dead end, only possible for an Ancestor God.

What I am saying is the needed knowledge base to arrive at Snorri's Chain Forger requires extremely specific circumstances (experience, equipment, insight, probably all 3), or an Ancestor's ridiculous capabilities (I assume gromril chainmail was first made by just doing what Snorri did with Azamar, except without the convenience of Barak Azamar itself).

Cheap Orange Knofe · May 12, 2021

tri2 said:
You know rereading the last update with the conversation with Angkara, I felt like Snorri, in regards to the gromril chain challenge when asked why he keeps going, instead of it being pride or vision, would be a simpler more straightforward yet acceptably odd answer. "I don't leave things half finished."

Haha then we HAVE to teach and write a book in that case!

Dark as Silver · May 12, 2021

TimEd said:
And would that same dwarf also happen to coincidentally have the right experiences, experimentation (success or failure is debatable) results, along with mastery of gromril's "wire" properties to make the Rune of Anneling?

Do not forget that Snorri is an anomaly regarding his workings with gromril (Mainly due to our armor). It is still a rare and expensive material whose properties when made thin enough to be a wire can only ever really practiced when attempting to find the secret of gromril wire, which was currently thought of as a technological dead end, only possible for an Ancestor God.

What I am saying is the needed knowledge base to arrive at Snorri's Chain Forger requires extremely specific circumstances (experience, equipment, insight, probably all 3), or an Ancestor's ridiculous capabilities (I assume gromril chainmail was first made by just doing what Snorri did with Azamar, except without the convenience of Barak Azamar itself).

Keep in mind that I presented this as taken with traditional teaching. It was explicitly not an alternative to some kind of more normal teaching method, just incase you think I suggested something I didn't mean.
This wasn't a way of gaming the system to get everything that the book normally, it was a way of normalising this without the repercussions and at the same time it opens up how to make it to the Engineers and Master Blacksmiths who would be interested in getting one but couldn't rune it themselves and allows them to approach a runesmith to do that bit.

For your actual point:
If you're willing to bite the premise that Flame forge was substituted then you also have to agree that Annealing could. Therefore yes they could have. There are hundreds of Master Runesmiths and anyone who could afford the sheer amount of Gromril to make a Chainmaker would also be old, powerful and with a large library of runes, having a weird deadend variation of a rune of Breaking or Cleaving and so on is not unusual at all.
This does not require them to derive how to make chain from scratch its "Alright at this point you need a rune capable of generating a temperature of whatever inorder to make the Gromril so sufficiently malleable." Even if a dwarf was starting out with how to recreate the chain forger just from that its still massively easier than figuring it out from nothing because laying out a list of processes and what needs to happen at each step turns a lot of unknown unknowns into known unknowns. Even if they had to invent their own runes to fill those abilities it would still be a massive decrease in difficulty.

DkArthas · May 12, 2021

Eh, objective has no point. What we are doing is gonna ruffle plenty of feathers, the list we can do is try to gain some support to counter the possible negatives. The political game will exist even you put your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't so I am fine with either Radical or conservative.

Olivebirdy · May 12, 2021

I'm most interested in Home/Hearth, as that's what Snorri is most interested in. He's a homebody to the core, all about making sure his younger siblings are warm and happy.

I don't think the Gromril chainmail secrets need to be rushed, really. Isn't it just a prestige thing, where plate is superior?

I'd want to tailor to the Radicals, I think. We're pretty sympathetic to them.

Derpmind · May 12, 2021

Writing it in a book is, like. A very bad idea. We saw what happened when a hold falls to darkness and sorcery. Imagine Dum with gromril Chainforgers of its own. Imagine the Chaos Dwarves in canon having gromril chainmail for their monsters and gromril chains for their warmachines. It would be an absolute disaster.

We OOC might want to see important things written down because knowledge was lost in canon Warhammer Fantasy, but that forgets two things: One, such a fall may never happen, and even if it does it may not be nearly as disastrous what with the changes that have happened already. Two, the extreme paranoia guarding Runsmith knowledge worked. Millenia later the secrets of proper Runesmithing still belongs to the Dawi. The Chainforger is too precious and impactful a secret to go about writing it in not one book, but many books that'll be distributed far and wide - plenty enough opportunity for one to go missing or have its contents copied and, eventually, deciphered. If we want to preserve knowledge, this is a terrible way to go about it.

EternityWarrior · May 12, 2021

I'm definitely against writing any books. There is a good reason why runecraft is passed on the way it is, and books are very prone to being lost/misplaced/stolen.

allmightytoaster · May 12, 2021

Olivebirdy said:
I don't think the Gromril chainmail secrets need to be rushed, really. Isn't it just a prestige thing, where plate is superior?

I think I have seen the argument of Plate > Chain before, and while it is true that when forced to choose between plate or chainmail of the same material, plate is better, plate still leaves gaps, which is what chainmail is for. If you are fighting something you need gromril plate to fight, non-gromril mail is unlikely to protect your joints much.

Warlord D Thoran · May 12, 2021

_The_Bomb said:
Wow this finally payed off. I remember when Snorri casually broached the idea of forming a new guild to Jorri while the were drinking, only to be instantly shut down due to sheer amount of work that would entail. It didn't sit right with me; if you want something done, do it right. That's the dwarf way.
(But in all seriousness it's awesome a small detail from early on in the quest actually leads to something later on.)

yes lovely but for the life of me I can't remember what new guild that is being created

Dark as Silver · May 12, 2021

Derpmind said:
Writing it in a book is, like. A very bad idea. We saw what happened when a hold falls to darkness and sorcery. Imagine Dum with gromril Chainforgers of its own. Imagine the Chaos Dwarves in canon having gromril chainmail for their monsters and gromril chains for their warmachines. It would be an absolute disaster.

If Dum fell to the chaos dwarves... They probably wouldn't have enough Gromril to make a chain forger?
Seriously there are like three holds with sufficient mines to actually make one.

Also people overstate the impact that Gromril mail will have, a chain forger isn't a modern factory, it can't arm an army by itself and Gromril plate is better anyway so the increase is minor.

allmightytoaster said:
I think I have seen the argument of Plate > Chain before, and while it is true that when forced to choose between plate or chainmail of the same material, plate is better, plate still leaves gaps, which is what chainmail is for. If you are fighting something you need gromril plate to fight, non-gromril mail is unlikely to protect your joints much.

Why did we bother with it at all during the Kholek fight or the Debra fight then?

allmightytoaster · May 12, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Why did we bother with it at all during the Kholek fight or the Debra fight then?

Because it still protects your joints outside of those fights and you don't strip off a layer of armor in the middle of a battle.

Burned_Cookie · May 12, 2021

The main gains, besides some extra coverage, is material cost and weight.

A full plate eats way more metal than chain, making it almost unaffordable and too heavy for something like a scout.

allmightytoaster · May 12, 2021

My point is that plate and chain are worn TOGETHER if one is wearing plate, so any argument along the lines of "we don't need chain, we have plate" seems weird to me.

Dark as Silver · May 12, 2021

allmightytoaster said:
Because it still protects your joints outside of those fights and you don't strip of a layer of armor in the middle of a battle.

Oh right, I forget Dragons are famous for their many minions so obviously we set off prepared for that.
E:

allmightytoaster said:
My point is that plate and chain are worn TOGETHER if one is wearing plate, so any argument along the lines of "we don't need chain, we have plate" seems weird to me.

Chain is common. Just because its not Gromril doesn't mean it doesn't fill the same role. Just slightly worse.

Ragnar · May 12, 2021

BelligerentGnu said:
I'm worried now. Are we missing something?

She's implying that due to Dwarf mentality, they naturally form Stratified societies. In the past, this was oppressive to those not on the top, and caused unneccesary suffering.

Valaya knew this, and used this compulsive inpulse to form the way we know in this quest, which is also heavily stratified, but in a possitive and supportive way.

She's implying that changes to this, unless it also takes advantage of the Dwarfen natural inclinations, will result in Bad Things.

allmightytoaster · May 12, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Oh right, I forget Dragons are famous for their many minions so obviously we set off prepared for that.

Yes, Kholak sure did siege our walls on his own.
On the dragon, yes it's teeth are going to shred steel like tissue, but why would you leave it off? The weight is nothing compared to what the dwarf is wearing already, it doesn't do anything to range of motion plate doesn't, and it still helps against glancing blows and shrapnel.

Dark as Silver said:
Chain is common. Just because its not Gromril doesn't mean it doesn't fill the same role. Just slightly worse.

I don't think I understand your point. The original post I replied to claimed that gromril chain was only a prestige thing since plate offers better protection. I argued that gromril chain is still useful, since it covers areas previously only covered by steel chain. And since the setting contains demons and monster who can shred steel plate but not gromril, protecting your joints with it is still a notable upgrade.
Which of these points do you take issue with?

BelligerentGnu · May 12, 2021

Ragnar said:
She's implying that due to Dwarf mentality, they naturally form Stratified societies. In the past, this was oppressive to those not on the top, and caused unneccesary suffering.

Valaya knew this, and used this compulsive inpulse to form the way we know in this quest, which is also heavily stratified, but in a possitive and supportive way.

She's implying that changes to this, unless it also takes advantage of the Dwarfen natural inclinations, will result in Bad Things.

I meant more in a meta sort of way, as in, is the QM hinting at us. Having thought about it a bit, this seems like a warning regarding the book publishing

Dark as Silver · May 12, 2021

allmightytoaster said:
Yes, Kholak sure did siege our walls on his own.
On the dragon, yes it's teeth are going to shred steel like tissue, but why would you leave it off? The weight is nothing compared to what the dwarf is wearing already, it doesn't do anything to range of motion plate doesn't, and it still helps against glancing blows and shrapnel.

weight of medieval chainmail - Google Search

Google Search

The weight of a full chaimail shirt represents 1/3 to 1/5 of the weight of the platemail. And Gromril is less dense than Steel so for steel mail and Gromril plate double that value, to 2/3rds or 2/5ths.
Thats far from nothing.

SoHowAreYou · May 12, 2021

*Valayan High Priestess talks to us about there being reasons for traditions*

"Hey guys let's disseminate information through a radical new method"

Yes I know that's not what the advice was nessecairly about, but seriously regardless of how much impact it would materially have Snorri would feel like complete shit if the C-Dorfs got a book and started making Gromril Chain.

allmightytoaster · May 12, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
The weight of a full chaimail shirt represents 1/3 to 1/5 of the weight of the platemail. And Gromril is less dense than Steel so for steel mail and Gromril plate double that value, to 2/3rds or 2/5ths.
Thats far from nothing.

Again, what are you arguing? My only point is that gromril chain is better than steel even if you wear gromril plate over it. It is still better than nothing. Why are you so adamant about taking it off?

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Meteor maker

Meteor maker

CAPITAL IS TO BLAME

mook.

Very tired girl.