Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
Also people overstate the impact that Gromril mail will have, a chain forger isn't a modern factory, it can't arm an army by itself and Gromril plate is better anyway so the increase is minor.
You don't wear either plate or chain. You wear both; chainmail is worn underneath plate armor. Gromril is just as much a major upgrade to chainmail as it is to plate armor, and it's not overstating anything to say that even in its current form the Chainforger is a path to better metalshaping and armoring technology as well.
 
Gromril is really expensive so not every dwarf can afford it. Gromril chain offers near Gromril plate protection at much lower cost.
Widespread application would be a decent boost to average dwarven survivability, getting the Chainforger out is a step towards that.
 
I believe this is meant to be 'older'? Or Perhaps I just didnt english correctly?

It was talking about Karaz-A-Karak's walls, so I assume it was meant to be 'Older'
Karaz a Karak was founded after many of the Southern holds. It is therefore younger.
Ehhhhh... Its been done but its kinda suspect.
I did say most conservative. The fact that it's an option isn't there to go "Gotcha!"

As for arguments about the Frurndar gaining access to Gromril Chainmail with a Chainforger.

There would be far more significant problems at play if there are Chaos Dwarfs with access to, let alone the ability to make, a Chainforger is all I'll say on the issue.

I meant more in a meta sort of way, as in, is the QM hinting at us. Having thought about it a bit, this seems like a warning regarding the book publishing
It wasn't. More the opinion of a very old Dwarf matron looking at a radical youngster kickflipping about.
 
Again, what are you arguing? My only point is that gromril chain is better than steel even if you wear gromril plate over it. It is still better than nothing. Why are you so adamant about taking it off?
This bit.
If you are fighting something you need gromril plate to fight, non-gromril mail is unlikely to protect your joints much.
I specifically disagree with this.
I think you may have misquoted?
Nah just realised that the first sentence wasn't going to go anywhere so only responded to the new point?
You don't wear either plate or chain. You wear both; chainmail is worn underneath plate armor. Gromril is just as much a major upgrade to chainmail as it is to plate armor, and it's not overstating anything to say that even in its current form the Chainforger is a path to better metalshaping and armoring technology as well.
...yes? But my point was that most holds are going to be unable to get enough Gromril to make a chainforger and arm people. Remember that Karka Drakk is one of the largest Gromril mines in the world. Saying that they can use plate and chain just increase the amount of gromril needed so I don't see how it helps?

Gromril is really expensive so not every dwarf can afford it. Gromril chain offers near Gromril plate protection at much lower cost.
Widespread application would be a decent boost to average dwarven survivability, getting the Chainforger out is a step towards that.
Gromril chain requires a machine that would bankrupt all but the wealthiest dwarves to make. If Gromril chain is ever going to be cheaper than Gromril plate it is in the extreme far future when theres significantly more supply compared to the demand.
 
Among the more established, larger and generally southern Holds there was a running thread that Grimnir's sacrifice was something done more out of practicality. That His Doom was done to avert more casualties, to end the fighting. But among the Elders who hailed from younger Holds, the Holds on the frontiers of the Karaz Ankor and the North especially, even large Holds like Ungor and Kadrin thought differently. The smaller Holds were the ones who faced the very real possibility of getting wiped out and being remembered only in the Dammaz Kron and the Major Northern Holds believed they would have certainly been irreparably crippled in the best-case scenario. Suffice it to say, they generally saw Grimnir's march as a necessity. You could understand the views of the former, you'd feel particularly safe in the midst of a place like Karaz a Karak, Karak Izril or Eight Peaks too after all, but you can't help but feel there's a bit of arrogance there regardless.

Do I understand this correctly, that the burgeoning Slayer Cult is predominant in the northern and overall younger holds? Not sure wether we want to involve ourselves into another religious argument, but there seem to be more and more things that threaten to splinter Dawi society into regional powers/groups.
 
Do I understand this correctly, that the burgeoning Slayer Cult is predominant in the northern and overall younger holds? Not sure wether we want to involve ourselves into another religious argument, but there seem to be more and more things that threaten to splinter Dawi society into regional powers/groups.
The circumstances around the Slayer Cult's formations are more complex. This was only one facet of a larger overall dispute within the Cult itself.

And Dwarf society has always had some factionalism. The Southern and Northern Holds thing is at least partially acknowledged in Canon, there are also the canonical Grey Dwarfs and those Dragonback refugees who went to the Vaults and Black Mountains and how both groups are seen by the Dwarfs still living in the Older Holds of the World's Edge and vice versa.

Dwarfs are, despite their efforts, not a monolith.

(it'd be a real pain for me to write about it if that was the case.)
 
It's back!

Hm, I don't particularly care for the Dum vote, but I'll probably go for Yourself. I don't have any clue what to vote for in regards to inspiration.

The one vote I am certain about is the Forger vote. I am completely against the Book option. It would deprive us of the opportunity to see Longbeards come to our workshop and learn the Runes! I could tolerate Both, but, ehh. I prefer to stick with Tradition.
 
Traditional Method. Cost: [1 actions] Locked in for 4 turns.
- [ ] [When] Write-in: Beginning of Turn ?
When will you actually commit some of your personal attention to the effort?

For how long can we postpone this and is there a rough estimate on the amount of turns/actions this will take?
 
I specifically disagree with this.
Not much is different from not at all, and little protection is still better than none. Steel is objectively worse than gromril as a protective material. Creatures that can shred steel plate exist in the world, and are far less rare now than they will be later on. That does not mean that steel chainmail isn't valuable for diverting many smaller wounds, just that it doesn't do much more.
 
Traditional Method. Cost: [1 actions] Locked in for 4 turns.
- [ ] [When] Write-in: Beginning of Turn ?
When will you actually commit some of your personal attention to the effort?

For how long can we postpone this and is there a rough estimate on the amount of turns/actions this will take?
It will take 4 turns says it says it right there. As for postponing it why would we? We don't have any commitments that make it awkward to do right now so why not just get it out of the way. Postponing it is just asking for something to come up and make stuff awkward, plus the sooner we do it the sooner the benefits are felt.
 
*Valayan High Priestess talks to us about there being reasons for traditions*

"Hey guys let's disseminate information through a radical new method"

Yes I know that's not what the advice was nessecairly about, but seriously regardless of how much impact it would materially have Snorri would feel like complete shit if the C-Dorfs got a book and started making Gromril Chain.
The High Priestess was not saying don't break down old non-functional traditions. She was saying create new traditions to replace the old ones. For example, look at the traditional method the Ancestors used to teach Snorri to make Gromril Chain. They gave a gift of Chain and let him figure out the rest. Even Valaya gave a gift with Runes on it. That is the traditional method of learning. Actively showing off the method used and being willing to personally teach the Runes involved is already a new tradition compared to that.
 
The High Priestess was not saying don't break down old non-functional traditions. She was saying create new traditions to replace the old ones. For example, look at the traditional method the Ancestors used to teach Snorri to make Gromril Chain. They gave a gift of Chain and let him figure out the rest. Even Valaya gave a gift with Runes on it. That is the traditional method of learning. Actively showing off the method used and being willing to personally teach the Runes involved is already a new tradition compared to that.
Eh, there is precedent if we go with the [ ] [Forger] Teaching. option. Now, the only people outside of Thungni himself who have done this in the past were his direct children and apprentices, but it doesn't absolutely break tradition.

But back to the conundrum, you admit its one you could theoretically solve by simply releasing the knowledge of the Runes in question. The gravity of what you've discovered would certainly do a lot to quell the disbelief in your desire to share such knowledge in a manner only a very small, and very prestigious number of Runesmiths have done in times past.
Simply put, the only Dwarfs currently who have shared Rune's they've made on masse are Thungni or his immediate children and apprentices whenever they find some Rune they think is either:

- Important enough to be known by every Runesmith
- Simple enough that any Runesmith is worthy of knowing it.

But usually, its some mix of the above two reasons, though the ratio of these reasons depends on the Runesmith in question. Thungni, obviously, is perfectly balanced/ everyone believes whichever reason best fits their worldview.

It should also be noted that Thungni is the only Runesmith to have done so more than maybe two or three times over their whole lives.
 
The High Priestess was not saying don't break down old non-functional traditions. She was saying create new traditions to replace the old ones. For example, look at the traditional method the Ancestors used to teach Snorri to make Gromril Chain. They gave a gift of Chain and let him figure out the rest. Even Valaya gave a gift with Runes on it. That is the traditional method of learning. Actively showing off the method used and being willing to personally teach the Runes involved is already a new tradition compared to that.

The deeper message here, I feel, is that Traditions Exist For A Reason.
A tradition may be good or bad, or as circumstances chance a tradition may become obsolete, but we should never assume traditions are useless or uninformed.

They address a cause, or a need.

So if we do big things that trample on traditions without addressing that root cause or need at the same time, we end up with problems of some kind or another.

And this is not just limited to our current topic of the day. It applies to prosthetics, it applies to hypothetical future light communications, to alchemical secrets of materials yet undiscovered.

We are a figure of renown. Our discoveries and inventions have shown capability to affect larger dwarven society in significant ways (largely because we as players have investigated those options, like prosthetics, in part hoping for specifically that).
So this is a warning from an old dwarf to someone they see as a radical, maybe even hasty whippersnapper: when we begin thinking of changing the existing Status Quo of dwarven society, we best take heed of the traditions we are trampling upon because those traditions do not exist 'just because.' They are as the Ancestor Gods designed them to be (or implicitly approve of by not having changed them), because the current dwarven society is in fair part of their design. The traditions serve a purpose. They address a deeper cause or a need that may not be apparant on a superficial investigation. So we best spare at least some thought to those deeper root issues and how we plan to deal with them, if we set precedents of traditions not mattering or go about outright uprooting them.

TL;DR : If we are ever about to go radical on the dwarven society in general, pay heed to the traditions we are ignoring or uprooting, because those traditions do not exist without reason. And not having ways of addressing those deeper reasons will lead to problems.
 
Last edited:
The High Priestess was not saying don't break down old non-functional traditions. She was saying create new traditions to replace the old ones. For example, look at the traditional method the Ancestors used to teach Snorri to make Gromril Chain. They gave a gift of Chain and let him figure out the rest. Even Valaya gave a gift with Runes on it. That is the traditional method of learning. Actively showing off the method used and being willing to personally teach the Runes involved is already a new tradition compared to that.
I think she was also saying to look at the reasons why those old traditions came to be, and to make sure that the new solutions will address what remains of those reasons.

As for the Hearth/Home/Healing aspect... I'm leaning towards Home or Healing, but really any would work quite well for Snorri.
 
Next turn we just need to put three actions into grave wardens to finish it and then there's nothing that really needs that extra action so we could just start teaching it now. At some point it would be nice if Snorri would upgrade his teaching traits to give a free teaching action so we actually get 5 actions in a turn lol.
 
Don't have much to add on the Chainforger discussion, but when it comes to the Dum survivors, I feel going for Conservative or 'Objective' courses is a mistake for our aims.

First, the Objective line:
Be factual and as objective as possible. You are here to inform and give opinions if asked, nothing more, nothing less. You can't say for certain if it's the best use of the opportunity, but some people will doubtlessly appreciate your attempt at objectivity. The question is whether they'll be Dwarfs whose opinions you particularly care for.
As long and white as Snorri's beard might be, he's still young compared to a number of the Runelords he'll be speaking to (I'd place him probably around middle to upper-middle in age, but that's guesswork). He has his biases, his preferences, and that is going to come through in his testimony. What he considers fact and what he considers opinion will be noted by the council, and that will lead not just to people using their own opinions of Snorri to help form their opinions of Kraka Grom, but the cession of some ability to helping the dwarfs of Grom reintegrate into the Karaz Ankor. These are initial opinions and impressions, and in going for Objectivity a number of Lords might come down on sides opposed to what Snorri, and us the voters, want. It's negligence nigh onto irresponsibility towards his duty as an Elder of Queen Valka and her people. He swore to help them, and while he's helped them build a home, he now has to help them keep it.

The best way to help ensure the Ankor doesn't fracture over the Dum Question is, I feel, to openly court political support or make plain what Snorri's goals are, which leaves impersonal objectiveness off the table.

Second, the Conservative line:
Try and earn the respect and interest of the more conservative members of the House. Emphasize the creativity of Dum's last Runesmiths, the efforts of Gazul, the securing of Guild Secrets and the elimination of any and all Frurndar and their foul assistance.
This is almost entirely centered around damage control. Securing Guild Secrets and eliminating the Frurndar by any means is what this is built around. This thinking has a direct line towards persecuting the survivors, of digging into their personal matters and guiding them back into proper dwarfish culture. This is a very risky path to my mind because of the personal and cultural trauma the dwarfs of Grom have. They can't just go back to being members of the Karaz Ankor, trusting in the wisdom of Elders and the benevolence of their Masters. They did that before and their reward was centuries of harrowing struggle as they dug deeper and deeper into the earth to escape the traitors who had conquered their home. They don't trust that easily, and that's just going to cause rising tensions until something happens.

The Radical line hits similar points, but is both couched in softer language, 'death of the Frurndar and their erstwhile allies' vs 'elimination of any and all Frurndar and their foul assistance,' and also gives credit to the Dum survivors in their own resourcefulness to keep on living and fighting. Out of the targeted political pitches it's the better one to me.
 
Last edited:
There are lessons learned there too. How the remnants survived, and what was key to their success. About how they managed to make due with so very little. I'd say a lot of runesmiths are a bit spoilt with having whatever they want. Just a bit really, but I wonder how often Runesmiths try to use the least expensive and most common bits? If a runesmith was dropped into a poor or desperate hold, how much of their runes would no longer be accessable?

That's a very important question I feel. They shouldn't expect traitors, but runesmiths strike me as almost a 'win more' work. Almost all industry is like that to be fair, but an engineer can potentially build a shoddy tool if they have nothing but bone and cheap wood. It'd be painful and almost shameful for them, but that would be needed.

Ultimately I say this because that's what happened towards the end. The runesmiths had nothing, and had to make due. And they did. It might be possible to take that and make sure they can do better.
 
Not much is different from not at all, and little protection is still better than none. Steel is objectively worse than gromril as a protective material. Creatures that can shred steel plate exist in the world, and are far less rare now than they will be later on. That does not mean that steel chainmail isn't valuable for diverting many smaller wounds, just that it doesn't do much more.
Okay... So I think the problem here is probably a misunderstanding here:

when forced to choose between plate or chainmail of the same material, plate is better, plate still leaves gaps, which is what chainmail is for. If you are fighting something you need gromril plate to fight, non-gromril mail is unlikely to protect your joints much.
I assumed that you meant given a limited amount of Gromril, mail was an equally good use of it to plate. Where as you meant two spherical dwarves in a vacum with an infinite supply of Gromril?

Obviously Gromril mail is better than steel mail given the same blacksmith. The reason people argue its not an effective use of Gromril is that we are fundamentally working with a limited supply of Gromril and Gromril spent on chain is Gromril that hasn't been used in Plate.
And I assumed that it was implicitly understood that the argument was a choice between two dwarves in Gromril plate and steel mail with a third in all steel, rather than three in Steel plate and Gromril mail or whatever numbers?
 
Okay... So I think the problem here is probably a misunderstanding here:


I assumed that you meant given a limited amount of Gromril, mail was an equally good use of it to plate. Where as you meant two spherical dwarves in a vacum with an infinite supply of Gromril?

Obviously Gromril mail is better than steel mail given the same blacksmith. The reason people argue its not an effective use of Gromril is that we are fundamentally working with a limited supply of Gromril and Gromril spent on chain is Gromril that hasn't been used in Plate.
And I assumed that it was implicitly understood that the argument was a choice between two dwarves in Gromril plate and steel mail with a third in all steel, rather than three in Steel plate and Gromril mail or whatever numbers?
That's the misunderstanding then, because the post I quoted wasn't the only one I saw, and from my memories there seemed to be a fundamenral understanding of plate being something you upgrade to from chain like in d&d, rather than something worn over top. (Sorry to that poster if that wasn't the case)
On material efficiency, I know gromril is rare in canon, but I had understood that the bottleneck during this time period was more in the number of able runesmiths than in material shortages. Then again, Snorri sits on a pretty big deposit of the stuff by word of QM if I remember correctly, so that may be colouring my perception.
Either way, yes, my original argument did not take material shortage into account.
 
Last edited:
Idly, Jorri reckons there'll be a great deal more drinking in the days to come.

This will be a mess
This is to complex for my brain, need to unlock stats and invest in Wisdom.
One of the grumbling Longbeards turns at the sound of your footsteps, glances at your beard and nods, grunting at the others to move aside and let another elder enter their midst.
Hehehe, you cant call that a Longbeard without reaching the width, length and color of Snorri. Respect to that beard
[ ] Gromthi Rinri: Home
It is a benefit for the Karak Drak, even if they create new holds in the north or mountain peak rosters, they will always look to where the heart of the north is.
[ ] [Dum] Be factual and as objective as possible. You are here to inform and give opinions if asked, nothing more, nothing less. You can't say for certain if it's the best use of the opportunity, but some people will doubtlessly appreciate your attempt at objectivity. The question is whether they'll be Dwarfs whose opinions you particularly care for.
Seem like the best option for me.
Yeah this is the best option, higher chance of it reaching future Runesmiths
 
Let's not go with the books. Even if we really wanted to, now would be a terrible time for it. The chaos dwarves got access to some runecraft somehow, and while I suspect torture or corrupted apprentices were how, I have no doubt someone is going to bring up the possibility that some foolish runesmith wrote down their knowledge, and the chaos dwarves got it that way. And we will be suggesting this literally right before or right after we talk about that whole mess. There's no way it'll go over well.

Plus the chaos dwarves are still out there, acting as a subversive cult within the Karaz Ankor. If we write it down they might steal it and actually get runelore that way. Too much of a risk.
 
Back
Top