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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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fictionfan said:
I doubt she is feeling much pressure to do that with Snorri teaching the runes far and wide. There is a good chance that within a century there will actually be enough limbs to meet demand. Without anyone needing to do any heroic effort.
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Oh yeah, I forgot that the Snerra scene in Turn 35 came before Snorri made his decision to teach the Rune of Forged Limb to every and all Master Runesmiths who approached him.

In that case, my speculation of the business between Snerra and the Valayans, and why it is a secret ("the details of which she had sworn not to reveal") goes as follows:

(a) Fact: Snerra is a genius prodigy with Specialty: Everything, and an extremely fast learner.

(b) Fact: Snerra has viewed and used Snorri's Chainforger (Turn 39 Results: " With a chipper skip in her step, Snerra pulls out a bar of Gromril from her satchel and begins setting up the machine...")

(c) Speculation: Merely from seeing the Chainforger in action and discovering that regular Dawi can make Gromril chainmail, Snerra has been inspired to go one step beyond and has created Gromril cloth.

(d) Speculation: Snerra is setting up a deal with the Valayans to create luxury Gromril lingerie ("VicSnerra's Secrets") for their High Priestesses in each Hold.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
I'm pretty sure you're confused here.





Durins consternation is not a specific thing in this argument, it's what happens and what a Dwarf feels when a Dwarf regardless of intent hits a bottle neck that they cannot breach in their research or endeavers because they don't have any paths left to explore to uncover and achieve what they've set out to do as they lack the ability or knowledge of what to do next. Alchemy and arcane magic are what will allow Snorri to breach his current boundaries and limitations. That's not a change in argument, it's you not understanding the argument in the first place.

[X][Explore]: The Great Hall.
[X][Explore]: The Foundries.
[X][Explore]: The Temples.
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I think Durin's Consternation is specifically when they hit that bottleneck because they don't understand what a Rune is doing.
soulcake said:
Durin's Consternation is an acknowledgement of the "fact" that the Dwarfs were not able to understand the underlying mechanics behind what exactly made their Runes work the way they did.
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And the older and more skilled they are, the more they feel they ought to understand what its doing making it more aggravating.
However if your definition is correct then we can entirely throw out what Alratan was proposing as a way to get sempai Thungni's attention. He wouldn't care about the minor research blockages of some random dwarf.
 
TheDuke said:
Hey soulcake, idle question here, there some sort of deed or trait for getting over 1000 years old? Just curious.
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"Your bones ache more than usual. Negative one on all rolls."

Talon TigerDino said:
[x][Explore]: The Foundries.
[x][Explore]: The Bakeries.
[x][Explore]: The Temples.

I'm pretty sure that Azamar is still really, really unknowable. Runework like that makes ours the scribblings of impatient beardlings. Best wait another millennium or two, with fellow smiths, favor from the ancestors, and properly sturdy stonebread for company.
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FTFY.

trooperist said:
Glad to see Yorri is still around. We haven't seen him in person in 102 years. Though he did send Snorri that request to have each of his apprentices make 20 axes for him to study.
Not that I doubted he was alive. The guy looks set to live forever.
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Or until trolls die out, whichever may come first.

For my vote:
[x][Explore]: The Foundries.
[x][Explore]: The Bakeries.
[x][Explore]: The Temples.

I have no reason but my whims, but perhaps that is enough at times.
 
[X][Explore]: The Temples.
[X][Explore]: The Great Hall.
[X][Explore]: The Foundries.
[X][Explore]: The Markets.
[X][Explore]: The Bakeries.
 
Dark as Silver said:
And the older and more skilled they are, the more they feel they ought to understand what its doing making it more aggravating.
However if your definition is correct then we can entirely throw out what Alratan was proposing as a way to get sempai Thungni's attention. He wouldn't care about the minor research blockages of some random dwarf.
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Understanding how some random rune works under the hood would probably be pretty impressive. Understanding how the Master Rune of Purification, a rune that allows the refining of better rune metal, work would probably be even more impressive.

The point here is that runes, in general, seem to be black boxed. Rune smiths make them, and see what they do, but don't know why. What Snorri might be able to do with alchemy is open one of the black boxes. That's what I think might impress Thungni. There might be a similar opportunity with Movement of Things and research into deep magic plus the elven construct making techniques.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
I think Durin's Consternation is specifically when they hit that bottleneck because they don't understand what a Rune is doing.

And the older and more skilled they are, the more they feel they ought to understand what its doing making it more aggravating.
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Okay if we accept your premise learning about Elven wind magic is still something that would help crack Durins consternation, and it's something Snorri basically states explicitly learning about wind magic is broadening his understanding of what runes do in some areas, so at this point I suppose you're arguing against primary text of Snorri stating that learning more is helping him.
 
Alratan said:
Understanding how some random rune works under the hood would probably be pretty impressive. Understanding how the Master Rune of Purification, a rune that allows the refining of better rune metal, work would probably be even more impressive.

The point here is that runes, in general, seem to be black boxed. Rune smiths make them, and see what they do, but don't know why. What Snorri might be able to do with alchemy is open one of the black boxes. That's what I think might impress Thungni. There might be a similar opportunity with Movement of Things and research into deep magic plus the elven construct making techniques.
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I think theres been a misunderstanding SuperSonicSound was saying that Durins Consternation was related to research blockages in general and that it was not refering to a specific issue all Runesmiths face, and that it could apply to non Rune related things and I was saying that, Thungni couldn't care less about the minor research problems of some beardling, breaking a personal problem isn't sufficient to get his understanding.
I think understanding any how any Rune works under the hood is a pretty massive breakthrough for a universal theory of Runes.
SuperSonicSound said:
Okay if we accept your premise learning about Elven wind magic is still something that would help crack Durins consternation, and it's something Snorri basically states explicitly learning about wind magic is broadening his understanding of what runes do in some areas, so at this point I suppose you're arguing against primary text of Snorri stating that learning more is helping him.
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No that's Alratan's premise?
My premise is that an understanding of the Winds is another useful tool to analyse what Runes are doing, however if it where enough by itself then we'd expect to see Slann and Elves using Runecraft.
You seem to have taken me saying "I don't think this research will do what Alratan wants" and taken it to mean that I'm against the research. I do think theres value in researching the winds, I'm just applying the brakes to spot any unjustified hype training.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I think theres been a misunderstanding SuperSonicSound was saying that Durins Consternation was related to research blockages in general and that it was not refering to a specific issue all Runesmiths face, and that it could apply to non Rune related things and I was saying that, Thungni couldn't care less about the minor research problems of some beardling, breaking a personal problem isn't sufficient to get his understanding.
I think understanding any how any Rune works under the hood is a pretty massive breakthrough for a universal theory of Runes.

No that's Alratan's premise?
My premise is that an understanding of the Winds is another useful tool to analyse what Runes are doing, however if it where enough by itself then we'd expect to see Slann and Elves using Runecraft.
You seem to have taken me saying "I don't think this research will do what Alratan wants" and taken it to mean that I'm against the research. I do think theres value in researching the winds, I'm just applying the brakes to spot any unjustified hype training.
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I think we're still running into the same issue I described earlier, the Elves don't have the foundational teaching of Dwarven runecraft that Thungni has passed down to his Children. Elven Arcane Magic opens up new insights and paths to understanding of those blackboxed elements of Runecraft that Snorri cant investigate previously will it solve the issue in its totality, would arcane magic insights allow the Elves or the Slann to use runecraft? Ofcourse not (well maybe the Slann but why would they bother?).

Will it help immensely almost definitely because it allows Snorri to learn about something which is fundamental to runecraft that he literally didn't and couldn't know previously and it allows him to integrate that insight into his work, now the bigger issue is that Snorri can't perceive the winds of magic or do any direct experimentation involving how that influences his craft. So that limits how quickly he can make use of that knowledge but it's absolutely going to matter. You can make an engine that uses a fuel without having total understanding of the fuel, but if you know more about the properties of the fuel you're using you can tune the engine.

When your fuel is magical energy that encapsulates all concepts then that matters a great deal.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
I think we're still running into the same issue I described earlier, the Elves don't have the foundational teaching of Dwarven runecraft that Thungni has passed down to his Children. Eleven Arcane Magic opens up new insights and paths to understanding of those blackboxed elements of Runecraft that Snorri cant investigate previously will it solve the issue in its totality, would arcane magic insights allow the Elves or the Slann to use runecraft? Ofcourse not (well maybe the Slann but why would they bother?).
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I think there's a suggestion in one of the novels that the Paths of the Old Ones, the transport network built into the geomantic web, used something that looks very much like dwarven runecraft in their construction.

If so, the Old Ones might have engineered runecraft capability into the Slann, depending on whether or not they had the Slann work on the Paths for them, or built them personally.
 
[x][Explore]: The Temples.

[X][Explore]: The Taverns.

[X][Explore]: The Bakeries.

[X][Explore]: The Foundries.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I think we're still running into the same issue I described earlier, the Elves don't have the foundational teaching of Dwarven runecraft that Thungni has passed down to his Children. Eleven Arcane Magic opens up new insights and paths to understanding of those blackboxed elements of Runecraft that Snorri cant investigate previously will it solve the issue in its totality, would arcane magic insights allow the Elves or the Slann to use runecraft? Ofcourse not (well maybe the Slann but why would they bother?).

Will it help immensely almost definitely because it allows Snorri to learn about something which is fundamental to runecraft that he literally didn't and couldn't know previously and it allows him to integrate that insight into his work, now the bigger issue is that Snorri can't perceive the winds of magic or do any direct experimentation involving how that influences his craft. So that limits how quickly he can make use of that knowledge but it's absolutely going to matter. You can make an engine that uses a fuel without having total understanding of the fuel, but if you know more about the properties of the fuel you're using you can tune the engine.

When your fuel is magical energy that encapsulates all concepts then that matters a great deal.
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I think this is the third time we've retreaded this ground so I'm going to stop replying. Retrod? English is such a dumb language.

I do think it will help. As I have said multiple times.
Dark as Silver said:
Wind research gives us another framework to understand what Runes are doing, however I'm not sure that it by itself is enough to actually see inside the black box so to speak.
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Dark as Silver said:
My premise is that an understanding of the Winds is another useful tool to analyse what Runes are doing, however if it where enough by itself then we'd expect to see Slann and Elves using Runecraft.
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My problem is that I think it is one step in many and want to make that a clear distinction.
Alratan said:
I think there's a suggestion in one of the novels that the Paths of the Old Ones, the transport network built into the geomantic web, used something that looks very much like dwarven runecraft in their construction.

If so, the Old Ones might have engineered runecraft capability into the Slann, depending on whether or not they had the Slann work on the Paths for them, or built them personally.
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Errr, look at the name they were created by the Old Ones.

Article:
Constructed at the height of their reign over the Warhammer World, the Paths of the Old Ones were a labyrinthine dimension that intersected with the then-tranquil Realm of Chaos, skimming the surface and thus allowing fast travel. Legend says the Old Ones rode across the Paths in fiery chariots.

I don't think it surprises anyone that the Old Ones had Runecraft of somekind and I don't think this is proof either way that the Slann have it.
 
[X][Explore]: The Great Hall.
[x][Explore]: The Bakeries.
[x][Explore]: The Taverns.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I think this is the third time we've retreaded this ground so I'm going to stop replying. Retrod? English is such a dumb language.

I do think it will help. As I have said multiple times.


My problem is that I think it is one step in many and want to make that a clear distinction.
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Probably Retrod. I agree it's one step in many, but I think it's the kind of thing where it's the most important first step especially as we have no other avenues that could shed light.
 
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