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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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...it Increases the cost that Journey men must pay to become masters, both for runesmiths and regular blacksmiths, this will likely result in them increasing prices across the board for even their basic products to reach the required amounts to afford whatever they need to become ordained masters.

This means that any product needed from these people will increase in price which will trickle even further down since the price of belt buckles, horse (goat?) shoes, locks, axes, pickaxes, etc. will increase. which in turn will effect the price of other products that need those pieces of equipment, ores, fortifications, household products, etc.

So yes I'd consider it a cornerstone product due to how it's linked with the greater current economy.
Okay I think I've identified your problem. What you need to understand is that Runesmiths are really rare. They need to be a descendant of Thungni and they need to have the gift. Snorri aside because he's enough of an outlier to shift the mean, dwarves don't have enough runesmiths to make everything have runes.
And Blacksmiths don't have to work in Gromril.

Additionally, gromril is only one of the ingredient costs of runic items,
The cost in reagents, material, the money not gained from doing commissions, it all piled up into a terrible beast that threatened to swallow her savings whole.

Like feeding a ravenous maw.

There was a reason why it was a common thing to see Journeymen Runesmiths braving the wilderness for reagents besides the challenge of it, and it was because it was actually more economically viable than buying everything they needed. Even her own research costs were being discounted by doing the same thing whenever she could and they were still eating up her earnings like a parched dwarf guzzles ale.
So here we see that in addition to gromril, a large amount of a works cost is in the reagents. And additionally that a lot of Journeymen struggle to afford to be runesmiths due to the cost of them.
Karstah nods and thanks the elder for his patronage, watching him leave her humble shop out of the corner of her eye while she starts running through the month's budget.

Reagents secured, material costs met, I'll have to put off the research for another year to finish the commission from One-eye but I should be set for another five years afterwards…
Here, we see that a single commission can sustain half a decade of research for a journeyman. I hope this makes the price of these objects apparent and obvious that they aren't day to day objects for your average dwarf.
You watch from several meters away, sitting on a bench and eating some stonebread, as Dolgi leaves yet another shop empty-handed. From the looks of things, he's been doing rather poorly lately. Not in terms of quality, because you'd throttle him if he was making shoddy work, but in terms of getting any real work to do. The troubles of having so many Runesmiths in a hold is that there's always someone to compete against. Course the lad's got the chops, just seems like a run of bad luck. Nothing really impressive for him to do and prove himself, just a lot of more mundane Runework from your observation. He's got enough money to get by for centuries, but it's clear the lack of any real work is affecting the young lad. Of course, you also see him clench his fist and tug on his beard, energy seeming to fill his veins as he likely makes an oath to overcome the challenge.
Here we can see that it can be difficult to get those commissions in the first place.
Somethings to note are 'having enough to get on for centuries' kinda contradicts how rapidly Kharstah appears to eat through her money, this might be an indication of how high research costs truely are Dolgi has enough to eat and feed himself for centuries but that doesn't include research(?).
If that is the case however, we can estimate just how high costs are as a journeyman who is actively researching and creating items burns through savings at least 20 times faster than a dwarf who is not. Taking this adjustment the 5 year commission represents about a century of living costs for the average dwarf, probably millions in our currency.
Honestly the idea that theres mundane runework that can sustain them is a bit confusing to me, presumably this is stuff like making runes of light en-masse, and I wonder how that works in more conservative holds where they more strictly hold to the rule of pride and can't rely on this. Maybe masters don't send apprentices on journeys until they have built up more savings or just more southern journeymen fail to make master. I'd be interesting in hearing more about this from soulcake I guess.

When a dwarf needs one of those things they go to a blacksmith and get a non-runic version usually, and that will be steel not gromril. And even if they did want a runic version, steel can also hold runes.
Prince Gimli is still carrying around a set of axes made by an apprentice ages ago. That he hasn't had them replaced by a master as he's grown up should probably be an indication of exactly how rare they are.
Kraka Drakk is extremely unusual in how common runic items are and that is because Snorri makes a ridiculous amount of goods and that when he did Hold Armings and the Underway, he did it as a gift rather than charging. Most dwarves will never own a runic item.
 
Honestly the idea that theres mundane runework that can sustain them is a bit confusing to me, presumably this is stuff like making runes of light en-masse, and I wonder how that works in more conservative holds where they more strictly hold to the rule of pride and can't rely on this.

My theory is that the Conservative Runesmiths in Conservative holds have to invent a new variation every time they strike an additional Rune of Light.

"This is Rune of Light, Model 25695-A, Variation SY602KU - appropriate for Runes of Light on the left-facing vertical wall of a blacksmith's workshop, where said Rune is to be struck five feet above the ground, ten feet from the rear perpendicular wall and eight feet from the front perpendicular wall, and intended to illuminate the following models of blacksmith hammers mounted on a standing rack..."
 
Two thoughts on the cost of runes, particularly in the far north.

Snorri has made runic ingredients (that Yorri discovered) available that can be reliably farmed or mined on a large scale. This probably reduces the cost and the variability of the cost of those ingredients, meaning that more junior runesmiths can afford to buy them (this may also impact the development of their specialisms, as they'd tend to work on runes they can afford to make).

Snorri has also set a precedent of taking less talented dwarves as apprentices as well as talented ones, meaning it's more likely that those with a weak gift who otherwise wouldn't have chance to be taught to us it will be.

Depending on the direction Alchemy research goes, the great machines that Snorri envisions may magnify the first factor.
 
My theory is that the Conservative Runesmiths in Conservative holds have to invent a new variation every time they strike an additional Rune of Light.

"This is Rune of Light, Model 25695-A, Variation SY602KU - appropriate for Runes of Light on the left-facing vertical wall of a blacksmith's workshop, where said Rune is to be struck five feet above the ground, ten feet from the rear perpendicular wall and eight feet from the front perpendicular wall, and intended to illuminate the following models of blacksmith hammers mounted on a standing rack..."
Oh, I'd assumed they just used oil lamps or torches and braziers or something.
I do however like the idea that everywhere you walk in Karak Vron its just mood strobe lighting. With every single light doing something different.
Snorri has also set a precedent of taking less talented dwarves as apprentices as well as talented ones, meaning it's more likely that those with a weak gift who otherwise wouldn't have chance to be taught to us it will be.
Not really though, his first three apprentices where 7,9,10 out of 10. I don't know what Kharstah and Nain are but I don't think they're less than a 4, on average Snorri trains well above average.
 
Not really though, his first three apprentices where 7,9,10 out of 10. I don't know what Kharstah and Nain are but I don't think they're less than a 4, on average Snorri trains well above average.

IIRC Nain had low enough talent (average) that he was in danger of not being selected by a master. That was part of the argument to take him rather than his cousin.

Also, my argument was 'Less talented dwarves as apprentices as well as more talented ones'. The fact that some of his apprentices were the more talented ones doesn't contradict that at all. If a runelord will teach someone with an average talent, then a regular runesmith shouldn't turn their nose up at a dwarf with a weak one.
 
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Not really though, his first three apprentices where 7,9,10 out of 10. I don't know what Kharstah and Nain are but I don't think they're less than a 4, on average Snorri trains well above average.
Nain and Karstah are 5s IIRC, which is the base minimum he'll even take, and if folks want they can go looking back for the discussion soul's had on it before the recurring idea is that Snorri does not take any hypothetical candidate since he has standards befitting a Runelord.
 
Nain and Karstah are 5s IIRC, which is the base minimum he'll even take, and if folks want they can go looking back for the discussion soul's had on it before the recurring idea is that Snorri does not take any hypothetical candidate since he has standards befitting a Runelord.
Snorri's standard is "at least average talent", because despite being a Runelord, he still sees himself as having an average level of talent.
 
Snorri's standard is "at least average talent", because despite being a Runelord, he still sees himself as having an average level of talent.
No Snorri was a 7.
As for Snorri, his natural skill was at a 7, effort got him where he was, his productivity was always pretty high.
Also his apprenticeship and journeyman periods where so short most outsiders who don't him would probably assume he was a 10.
 
What happens if someone has less than 5?
Does it just skip them and become something that can manifest in their children?
Or are they capped at what they can achieve?
 
What happens if someone has less than 5?
Does it just skip them and become something that can manifest in their children?
Or are they capped at what they can achieve?
Nah, they're still like as not to become Runesmiths, just not likely to become Runelords and remain as just Master Runesmiths if they don't die during their Journeying or apprenticeships.
 
Nah, they're still like as not to become Runesmiths, just not likely to become Runelords and remain as just Master Runesmiths if they don't die during their Journeying or apprenticeships.
So it's just hard mode for them, then.

Why doesn't Snorri take Dwarfs with less than a 5 in talent?
Has he decided that it's not worth the cost in time or something?
 
So it's just hard mode for them, then.

Why doesn't Snorri take Dwarfs with less than a 5 in talent?
Has he decided that it's not worth the cost in time or something?
His time is much better spend turning good ore into a masterpiece only achievable by someone with his skill/talent/experience than spending a much longer time making something approaching acceptable from bad ore.

Especially since the skill/talent/experience needed to turn bad ore into an acceptable masterpiece (remember that the older the age the higher the standards) is probably a responsibility not many dwarfs feel themselves capable of bearing.
 
Fair enough.

Seems a little rough for the lesser talents.
Karstah never truly planned to become a runesmith. She hoped for it, but I'm quite sure, that her more realistic goals lay with becoming a "normal" smith.

I can imagine that a good number of less talented runesmiths join other professions. Fjolla could have become a jeweler, if not for her talent as a runesmith.

I don't think that Dwarfs have any love for the typical underdog stories we humans enjoy.
 
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Do we have a rough idea of how many Runesmiths to Runelords there are as a ratio?

We know how many Runelords who live at Karak Drakk but I'm wondering how many Runesmiths of varying abilities also live there?

And roughly just how many Runesmiths actually have the ability and talent to become Runelords as a general percentage?
 
Do we have a rough idea of how many Runesmiths to Runelords there are as a ratio?

We know how many Runelords who live at Karak Drakk but I'm wondering how many Runesmiths of varying abilities also live there?

And roughly just how many Runesmiths actually have the ability and talent to become Runelords as a general percentage?


We know that 20 runesmiths went along to fight the Greedy One, which left enough runesmiths in Drakk to not compromise the defenses. In addition I vaguely recall that during the Dum campaign no one marched more than 20 steps from a runesmith.
As such the ratio of runelord:runesmith should be at least 1:50.
 
We know that 20 runesmiths went along to fight the Greedy One, which left enough runesmiths in Drakk to not compromise the defenses. In addition I vaguely recall that during the Dum campaign no one marched more than 20 steps from a runesmith.
As such the ratio of runelord:runesmith should be at least 1:50.
These numbers are influenced by Kraka Drakk though, very few holds have 2 Runelords let alone 4.
 
1:50 is probably a good floor. At a guess, I would say that it might well end up being 1:100 or 1:150 on average, because Runesmiths are needed everywhere. They in many ways seem to be the pillar that holds a lot of dwarf society up. They provide light, they provide many of the tools etc. They are not going to be anywhere near as numerous in total as, say, smiths, but I would say that there are probably a lot of runesmiths, especially in holds where there are not so many radical runelords with productivity specializations.
 
Also, Runelords are selected by their peers, who also control the number of Runelords in existence. So there is an incentive to keep the number low.
And there might be a few Jorris that say "feck that responsibility" and stay masters.
So the number of runemasters that have the talent to become Runelords might be higher than the number of open slots.
 
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Also, being a Runelord doesn't necessarily mean having the best skill (except for those whose skill so far outstrip their traits), but those who the collective runelords believe to be worthy of the political responsibility of being one of their numbers.

There are probably a few runesmiths whose skills at the least match those runelords who have more affinity to the political responsibilities ofbtheir elevated rank. Though these hypothetical runesmiths are probably those who are prone to (too many) long bouts of research induced hermitage, or some other odd trait discounting their skills. Heck, maybe there are smiths who are skilled but have tainted honor/reputation due to some reason or other.
 
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