Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Onmur]

Entering a new debate with Oriko would either require we ignore Kyouko and Sayaka, or we ask Homu to timestop for it.

Either of which could go wrong; the SayaKyou meeting could go bad and Homu might plain refuse.

 

[SpeckofStardust]

Either of which could go wrong; the SayaKyou meeting could go bad

Click to shrink...

But it will go bad if they find out were babysitting them.

and Homu might plain refuse.

Click to shrink...

unlikely, Homura has the same tendency as this thread for trying to control everything that's going on.

 

[Onmur]

unlikely, Homura has the same tendency as this thread for trying to control everything that's going on.

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But she won't stop time for Oriko's sake. (Or for Kwyjibo's sake, for that matter).

We'd have to really put this in... special terms to Homura, for her to lend us timestopped time so we can have a debate with Oriko. Like, tell Homura that if this discussion bears no fruit, you'll give up on Oriko, and maybe she'll agree to it.

 

[Onmur]

@Kaizuki, Do you want it to be an actual debate, each meguca trying to shoot down each other's 'theories' down?

As I see, your idea is... more about telling Oriko about the 'precogspiral' idea than anything else. We've already went and accepted she might me right about dying -and maybe that's what got her to consider not dying- so respecting Oriko's ideas is something we've started on, and is good.

'Precogspiraling' Oriko, giving her our 'theory' for why she's been plagued with visions of death; I could see us just doing that quickly, asking Oriko to think about (listen to and acknowledge her rebuttals -but not answer them just yet), and giving her time to think while we go check up on Sayaka and Kyouko.

Of course, if you want to keep debating with Oriko, and maybe, quote Aura:

1) Get Oriko to admit that she wants to live if it's possible; that if it's allowed to her she'd rather live a hero than die a hero.

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It's more about convincing half the thread to not go after KyouSaya right now.

We've got enough voters pulling on each of Brina's ears that the only consensus we've got is to let Mami decide.

 

[Kaizuki]

Kaizuki, Do you want it to be an actual debate, each meguca trying to shoot down each other's 'theories' down?

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At the start? No. To have an actual debate ideas need time to be clearly laid out. That, well, hasn't happened yet. After? Certainly.

What I want is a debate instead of an argument, if that makes sense.

I'd rather it be constructive, though. Trying to shoot each other's reasons down is pointless mostly.

'Precogspiraling' Oriko, giving her our 'theory' for why she's been plagued with visions of death; I could see us just doing that quickly, asking Oriko to think about (listen to and acknowledge her rebuttals -but not answer them just yet), and giving her time to think while we go check up on Sayaka and Kyouko.

Click to shrink...

...

Homura has pencil and paper in her shield, I'm sure...

...

...

...

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey!

 

[Onmur]

...

Homura has pencil and paper in her shield, I'm sure...

...

...

...

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey!

Click to shrink...

You can write out your thoughts, you know.

We could theoretically write out anything we might want to explain to Oriko while having Homu timestop-lead us to KyouSaya (writting with precision while travelling, thank Grief), then she drops us there, goes back, leaves the note on the table and goes back to her treefriend before unstopping time.

 

[mothematics]

warning The link on last page from @ctulhuslp was over the line and consequently has been removed. Next time if you think material may be over the line, ask us first.

edit: So I'm a big doofus and apparently we were reviewing this link specifically to see if we'd consider it over the line or not! So this isn't actually the end of this and the link might go back.

Woops.

 

[Kaizuki]

Wat

K

Thank you for your moderating services o great bird of the boards

 

[The Narrator]

@Kaizuki that's essentially what I was trying to get people to vote for before the new update dropped: overcome Oriko's excuses with logical arguments instead of emotional appeals.

Even though Oriko is being motivated by her depression, she wants to pretend that she's being cold and logical about everything: Hard Meguca Making Hard Choices.

We have to similarly use cold logic to disprove the ideas that she's basing everything on. Only after that's done will an emotional appeal have any chance of reaching her.

 

[TheEyes]

@Kaizuki that's essentially what I was trying to get people to vote for before the new update dropped: overcome Oriko's excuses with logical arguments instead of emotional appeals.

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Well, that's part of it, but I think another point is that @Kaizuki is saying we aren't even properly at the stage that we can "overcome Oriko's excuses with logical arguments" because we don't yet have all the facts, which I think is a good point.

This whole argument that Oriko is suicidal, therefore her power is reacting in an attempt to lead her to actions which cause her death does seem to fit the facts that we know, but we can't honestly say we know enough facts to unambiguously come to that conclusion. Remember that it wasn't so long ago that the majority consensus was that Oriko is "literally dying from lack of agency" and the solution was to work on Homura until she let her go out on a playdate with Kirika; before that all we had to do was get Oriko to admit that she was in love with Kirika and that would be enough.

 

[DB_Explorer]

Short version: Oriko is complicated.

I'm still going to be amused if Sabrina shows up to find Kyouko and Sayaka chatting away and complaining... about HER. (and how adorable Yuma is). Or discussing how to beat Sabrina up.

 

[Onmur]

Short version: Oriko is complicated.

I'm still going to be amused if Sabrina shows up to find Kyouko and Sayaka chatting away and complaining... about HER. (and how adorable Yuma is). Or discussing how to beat Sabrina up.

Click to shrink...

*Takes notes in case she ever needs to fight herself*

"Sabrina what-"

"Shhhh! This is important. Late game stuff."

"..."

"... So a baseball bat... and a cheese grater... and you throw me in a tub full of piranhas and- oh, I didn't know you could do that with ice cream!"

*Twitchy fingers intensify*

 

[DB_Explorer]

*Takes notes in case she ever needs to fight herself*

"Sabrina what-"

"Shhhh! This is important. Late game stuff."

Click to shrink...

*Cue Mami outlining how to make a high powered sniper rifle that could headshot Sabrina from 3 miles away*
Mami: You won't even hear the crack of the gunshot :3
Sabrina: ... ... *hugs Mami* BEST GIRLFRIEND EVER
Mami: .....
Kyouko: .... ....
Sayaka: .. ... .... huh?
Kyouko: Wut?
Sabrina: ... I said that out-loud did'nt I?
Mami: *faints*

 

[Kaizuki]

@Kaizuki that's essentially what I was trying to get people to vote for before the new update dropped: overcome Oriko's excuses with logical arguments instead of emotional appeals.

Even though Oriko is being motivated by her depression, she wants to pretend that she's being cold and logical about everything: Hard Meguca Making Hard Choices.

We have to similarly use cold logic to disprove the ideas that she's basing everything on. Only after that's done will an emotional appeal have any chance of reaching her.

Click to shrink...

Well, that's part of it, but I think another point is that @Kaizuki is saying we aren't even properly at the stage that we can "overcome Oriko's excuses with logical arguments" because we don't yet have all the facts, which I think is a good point.

This whole argument that Oriko is suicidal, therefore her power is reacting in an attempt to lead her to actions which cause her death does seem to fit the facts that we know, but we can't honestly say we know enough facts to unambiguously come to that conclusion. Remember that it wasn't so long ago that the majority consensus was that Oriko is "literally dying from lack of agency" and the solution was to work on Homura until she let her go out on a playdate with Kirika; before that all we had to do was get Oriko to admit that she was in love with Kirika and that would be enough.

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Hilariously, both of you missed the point. I specifically said "We can't really hope to convince Oriko here." This is about, primarily, treating her in a more respectful way to counter the treatment we've put on her and about conveying this information to Kirika, secondarily about getting more info from them, and tertiarily about telling Oriko our theory.

 

[Onmur]

*Cue Mami outlining how to make a high powered sniper rifle that could headshot Sabrina from 3 miles away*
Mami: You won't even hear the crack of the gunshot :3
Sabrina: ... ... *hugs Mami* BEST GIRLFRIEND EVER
Mami: .....
Kyouko: .... ....
Sayaka: .. ... .... huh?
Kyouko: Wut?
Sabrina: ... I said that out-loud did'nt I?
Mami: *faints*

Click to shrink...

Once Mami wakes up:

"I figured it out!"

"Uh... Bw... wha...?"

"I figured out how to not get sniped anymore!"

"... Good?"

"So?"

"So... what?"

"How would you plan on killing me now?"

"Are you... making this into a game?"

"I think it would be mutually beneficial."

"... Girlfriend?"

".............eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..."

"Sabrina?"

"eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..."

"Nooooo... I broke my Sabrina..."

 

[ctulhuslp]

[] Don't vocalize any of this. You're going to have to stay calm for the entire duration of this, because if you get emotional about it, it's going to look like it's supposition and hope speaking, not reason and logic. You've already done a wonderful job of making the impression on her that fireAndHope!Sabrina just argues at her and doesn't say anything of use. Be the scientist. Be the ice. The fire and the believer need to take a back seat for a bit. Also, you might have to cleanse her if any of this hits home well enough.
[] Tear down the privacy device, walk back over to the couch, and apologize to Oriko for, yes, the brusqueness, rudeness of your questions. But you did get what you were hoping to from them.
-[] If she asks what that was, ask if she'll give you a moment? Without any context it's quite useless and would probably just annoy her.
[] Tell her that you have a theory, and ask her to hear it out, because everything she's said jibes too well with it. But also note that, since it's a theory, it is in the end not something you'd just ask her to accept.
[] Explain that there's two sides to the theory, and that both are meaningless without the other, but obviously you can only cover one at a time. This is relevant because, alone, each half seems meaningless or even insulting.
-[] Note that you're aware of the Japanese tendency to minimize and disregard such things, then explain your belief that Oriko had major preexisting issues with depression before she made her wish. This is not either half of the theory, but it is the starting point.
-[] Observe that magic, being derived from humans, is not particularly separate from us (humans) -- we control it with our minds, it's practically another limb. Tell her that while you can't make claim to certainty, the idea that her depression wouldn't have contaminated her precognition is probably less reasonable than the opposite. Compare it to a meguca who can conjure up any sword, but who spent a year before contracting practicing with a katana. Even if it only happens on a subconscious level, that meguca will lean towards blades that are more like katanas.
-[] The other half, then, what is the result of feeding precognitive visions tainted with depression into the mind of somebody already depressed? And equally, as the visions reinforce the depression, won't the taint in those visions get worse and worse?
-[] You realize that proof is sparse. But where's the evidence for the competing theory, either? Ask about the vision granted by her wish. Did it include her death? After that, is there any correlation between time and the negativity of her visions? Can she think of any other evidence to bolster or weaken the theory? How about Kirika?

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Okay, so I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with it, I am simply trying to make it shorter and more digestible:
[] Calm down, use more Logos instead of Pathos.
[] Remove privacy, go talk to Oriko, explain to her hypothesis, with emphasis on not being sure, of precogspiral aka feedback loop of death visions and subconscious belief in her death being necessary influencing visions.
[] Frame it all as discussing hypothesis with her instead of trying to convince her in your rightness.

Something like this? Did I lose something important?

 

[Vebyast]

Okay, so I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with it, I am simply trying to make it shorter and more digestible:
[] Calm down, use more Logos instead of Pathos.
[] Remove privacy, go talk to Oriko, explain to her hypothesis, with emphasis on not being sure, of precogspiral aka feedback loop of death visions and subconscious belief in her death being necessary influencing visions.
[] Frame it all as discussing hypothesis with her instead of trying to convince her in your rightness.

Something like this? Did I lose something important?

Click to shrink...

When the vote comes up, that'd almost certainly capture everything that would've made it into the update. 90% of what Firn writes is thread intent anyway.

Might want to add something like:
[] Make sure the message gets across to Kirika; she's way more likely to be successful.

 

[ctulhuslp]

[] Make sure the message gets across to Kirika; she's way more likely to be successful.

Click to shrink...

This is in his reasoning before the vote, but not inside the vote itself. If I try to incorporate reasoning behind the vote, it will be a bloat.

[] [GOAL] Convince O&K that Sabrina does not consider herself infallible and stonewalling is not the only way to deal with her
-[] [REASON] Sabrina's self-righteousness probably makes arguing with her look pointless because passionate people are hard to reason with
[] [GOAL] Make Kirika understand what we are talking about after observing Oriko's reactions(???)
-[] [REASON] Kirika already knows Oriko can be wrong and self-destructive; is only person Oriko trusts
[] [APPROACH] Logical, maintain own fallibility
-[][REASON] Make Sabrina look possible to actually talk with instead of listening to her speeches(??????)
[] Remove privacy, go talk to Oriko, explain to her hypothesis, with emphasis on not being sure, of precogspiral aka feedback loop of death visions and subconscious belief in her death being necessary influencing visions.

Something along those lines? It is already bloating, so reasoning should probably go away from actual vote and we should rely on Firn incorporating thread thoughts and mood into IC thoughts and mood, IMO.

Because, well, Kai's vote is so big in part because it is trying to vote for actions and thoughts and reasoning simultaneously, which may be not a good thing, especially since QM is pretty good at capturing overall mood of thread.

 

[Vebyast]

Something along those lines? It is already bloating, so reasoning should probably go away from actual vote and we should rely on Firn incorporating thread thoughts and mood into IC thoughts and mood, IMO.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's a bit big. The format you've taken will also break the vote-tally program. I think sticking with the basic intent, like you had at first, probably works better.

[] Focus on getting the message across to Kirika.

 

[ctulhuslp]

So, trimmed!Kai's vote would look something like this?

[] Calm down, use more Logos instead of Pathos.
[] Remove privacy, go talk to Oriko, explain to her hypothesis, with emphasis on not being sure, of precogspiral aka feedback loop of death visions and subconscious belief in her death being necessary influencing visions.
-[] Frame it all as discussing hypothesis with her instead of trying to convince her in your rightness.
-[] Make sure the message gets across to Kirika

I mean, I still haven't heard much feedback (specifically Kai's opinion, because it is his vote, after all), but so far it seems like good enough bare bones version of it.

 

[The Narrator]

Hmm... I gotta be honest here, the more I think about it, the more I have doubts about how effective getting Kirika to change Oriko's mind will be. Between her own codependency issues and her wish, I'm not sure if she can challenge Oriko's misconceptions. She's kind of an enabler when it comes to Oriko's bad ideas.

 

[Onmur]

Is it possible to get Oriko to also explain why she trusts her powers too much? In her own words, and taking into account her powers' failures in the past.

 

[Firnagzen]

"Oy vey," you mutter under your breath. You pinch the bridge of your nose, squeezing your eyes shut. Somewhere out there, someone is laughing at you.

"Never rains, but it pours," you grumble, exhaling as you open your eyes. "Homura, could you timestop us? The three of us; I need planning time."

Homura's already reaching for her shield, cranking it sharpl-

-y. You blow out a hard breath, straightening and tightening your hold on Mami's hand. Homura's holding your other hand, and Mami's already spooling golden ribbon from her sleeve to lash the three of you together.

"Alright, alright," you say, giving Mami a smile as she winds a ribbon around Homura's wrist, and then yours. "Homura, was it just the two of them? Were either of them angry or starting to get angry?"

Homura shakes her head. "No," she says. "They seemed to be just talking, and Chitose Yuma was there, too."

"OK, good," you say, relaxing a bit. Just as well, though, because you'd been struggling with yourself about whether to ask her to join the conversation. That would probably earn you a spear to the gut. Rightfully so, if you're honest with yourself.

So really, it is a good thing Yuma's there. She's a good counterbalance to Kyouko's abrasiveness. And now that you think about it, there's no real good place to stash Yuma while she goes out hunting, in any case.

"Give us a moment, Homura?" you ask, smiling at your friend.

She regards you, expressionless, and eventually nods. "I'll be outside," she says, giving one last glance at the absolute blackness of your privacy field before striding out of the room and leaving you and Mami in the dead silence of her timestop.

You turn to face Mami fully, taking her hand in both of yours. You meet her eyes, giving her a gentle, reassuring smile.

She's scared.

You squeeze Mami's hand. "I-" you shake your head. "I guess I jumped the gun a little. I didn't mean to conceal anything from you - it's just that after I brought the idea of having Kyouko train Sayaka up with you, I went ahead and mentioned it to her. I'm sorry I didn't tell you yet - I didn't think it was urgent, and stuff kept coming up."

Mami swallows, eyes wide. "I-" she bites her lip. "A-alright. I- I suppose I shouldn't be upset."

"No," you say, squeezing Mami's hand tightly. "No, Mami. Are you upset? I- there's no such thing as 'shouldn't be upset'. If you are, you are."

Mami looks down, her eyes finding your joined hands. "I- I am. I-" she shakes her head. "I'm not upset at you. I- I know you're b-busy. Just, I- you know my history with her, and... it's for the good of Sayaka, but- it's hard."

"Thank you for understanding," you say softly. "I- first of all, I'm trying to be better about all this. Mami, you matter to me, and I'm trying to keep you in the loop. Just... I genuinely didn't think this one would come up so soon."

She gives you a wan smile. "How could you?"

"Yeah, well... I want to be more open with you," you say. "And... well. Second, I... Sayaka's my friend, but she's your student, and Mitakihara is your territory."

"It's our territory," Mami says, closing her free hand on top of yours.

Well. You suppose it is. You swallow the lump forming in your throat, and smile at her as you continue. "Alright, but- I... I want to give you this decision, Mami," you say. "I... I would prefer to settle the discussion with Oriko tonight, since it... doesn't seem like the situation with Sayaka is particularly urgent. But that is my preference, and it really is your decision."

"Ah. I-," Mami says. Her jaw works as she swallows, eyes not meeting yours. But... she's thinking. You can tell as much, just watching the expressions flicker across her face, and the little twitches of her fingers.

"I..." Mami says, fingers tightening on yours to almost crushing strength. "I'm not- I'm not strong enough. I- w-we can stay? And talk to Miss Mikuni? If that's alright?"

"That's perfectly fine, Mami," you say. "As I said, I... that's my preference, anyway. I suppose we'll tell Homura?"

She nods weakly, not letting go of your hands.

"Hey, Homura?" you call in her general direction. "We're done."

The time traveller appears a few minutes later, raising her eyebrows at you as she steps neatly around a rather nice vase.

"We're... going to continue talking to Oriko," you say. "I... are you sure we can't persuade you to come in? You don't have to talk to Oriko, but you could at least sit on a chair inside the house instead of outside in the cold."

Homura shakes her head. "No. Inform me when you're done," she says. "I... appreciate it."

"Alright," you say. "Thanks for keeping an eye out for Sayaka, by the way."

She shrugs, expression neutral.

"Right... I guess you can end the timestop, now. Stay safe, and stay warm, OK?" you say. "It's probably gonna be a cold night."

Homura nods. "Stay safe," she echoes, reaching for her shield. She twists it, and with tha-

-t familiar sense of dislocation, you're back in the real world. Homura's already striding out in a swish of lustrous black hair, Mami's hands still clasped around yours.

You smile at Mami, and then turn back to your privacy field, pushing through.

You're met by the smuggest look from Kirika, who seems to have migrated to sit across Oriko's lap in the relatively short non-timestopped period you've been outside the field. "Hi, Sabrina!" she chirps.

[] Write-in

=====​

Apologies for the delay in the update!

 

[UbeOne]

[] Precog-spiral Oriko.

 

[LucidProp]

Anyone have any ideas on how to remove Kirika's shipping headset?