"Madoka, I..."

*SSSSSSHHHHHH*

"Am your daughter."

*HOHHHHHHHHHH*

"That's... improbable?"

"Search your feelings."

*SSSSSSHHHHHH*

"You know it to be true."

*HOHHHHHHH*

"... Why are you making those weird noises?"

*SSHH-

"Nevermind the noise. Aren't you shocked?"

"I mean, that's literally impossible."

"But, but, but... magic."

"I'm sure you'll recover your memories one day, Sabrina."

*Grumble grumble*
 
One of the reasons we haven't potential=bombed Homura is that we've been worrying about other bombs and want to do things besides dropping bombs. But yes. We've discussed how to spin it as less negative before. Basically, Kyuubey wanting Madoka more doesn't make a huge difference to her, because he wanted her from loop one, so it doesn't change that. What her looping does change is that we can better deal with the fact that he wants Madoka.
 
Wasn't someone thinking that the right way to potentialbomb Homura was to get her on a couch with Madoka and play something similar to the anime, followed by Rebellion, for them, depending on Madoka for hugs support?
 
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Wasn't someone thinking that the right way to potentialbomb Homura was to get her on a couch with Madoka and play something similar to the anime, followed by Rebellion, for them, depending on Madoka for hugs support?
Priiivacy of Homura's life breach?



On not-discussion note: I have not seen it in the thread proper and it is a crime against thread readers to withhold such a treasure from them (WARNING MIGHT BE NSFW A BIT SOMETIMES):

Ask Domestic MadoHomu

(courtesy of Firn in Discord)
 
I think we'd want to withhold Episode 12 (to avoid giving Madoka ideas that she could make a wish that would solve things) and Rebellion (because nothing about that would be helpful), but showing Madoka Episode 10 would explain a lot very quickly, and probably net Homura some hugs.
 
I think we'd want to withhold Episode 12 (to avoid giving Madoka ideas that she could make a wish that would solve things) and Rebellion (because nothing about that would be helpful), but showing Madoka Episode 10 would explain a lot very quickly, and probably net Homura some hugs.

Wouldn't telling Madoka "Remember our talk about how meguca need emotional support and you are one for us? Homura needs you, give her all the hugs!" accomplish it just as effectively and w/o sharing stuff?
 
You can't post NSFW things in SV, warning or not.

On rereading the rules, it doesn't say anything against posting links to somewhat NSFW material?
Like, it goes
  1. Don't post porn.
    You can't post anything pornographic, or anything sexual about children. If it is risque, it must be behind a spoiler.

    That means, for example, that you can't:
    • Depict children having sex, naked, or in any other sexual fashion. Whether or not they are fictional is irrelevant. If it is both relevant and tasteful, you may have age-appropriate content (kissing, for example) with a fade-out details for things that are more serious than kissing and a fade-to-black for actual sexual acts;
    • Post images that feature uncovered sexual characteristics for the primary purpose of sexual titillation;
    • Post text that explicitly depicts significant sexual activity.
    • Use a NSFW avatar.

It is not porn, it is kinda behind the spolier (link, can hide into spoiler maybe?), so...should I PM member of the staff when in doubt or what?
 
I really doubt we're going to be able to get Homura's permission to tell Madoka anything specific about Homura's past Loops. Even telling her that Homura is a time traveler at all is going to be a tough one; I think the only way we're going to get to show Madoka Eps 10 is if she asks Homura for permission.
 
I still think that it's a bad idea to tell Homura about Rebellion. I'm afraid of how she'd react.
 
"Sucks to be you Madoka, but you are not allowed to stop existing in any way, else Homu will get you. Somehow. So you'll have to make do with continuing being alive and not paradoxing yourself out of existance. Harsh, I know."

*Snaps fingers*

"Darn it."
 
Random off the wall thought:

Organize a Mitakihara meguca dinner.

Have ALL meguca from Mitakihara (and Kyouko) meet together for dinner at... let's say, Oriko's.

Make Oriko clean up the place and host Sabrina, Mami, Homura, Sayaka, Kyouko, Yuma, Masami, Hiroko, and Ono.

Some of these people haven't ever met each other! That's terrible.
 
Random off the wall thought:

Organize a Mitakihara meguca dinner.

Have ALL meguca from Mitakihara (and Kyouko) meet together for dinner at... let's say, Oriko's.

Make Oriko clean up the place and host Sabrina, Mami, Homura, Sayaka, Kyouko, Yuma, Masami, Hiroko, and Ono.

Some of these people haven't ever met each other! That's terrible.

1. Technically, you forgot Kirika from the list.
2. Lol, how many seconds before everything is on fire?
3. Can Sabrina make QB-repelling field?
 
Kirika is not a guest, silly. She's a Mikuni. Practically.

That's why "technically".

I figure a semi formal setting would give us not seconds, but whole minutes without fires!

OTOH, time stop and precognition make fires starting instantly and exactly at the right moments a real possibility.

That's the point of the Privacy Construct.

What happens in Mikuni house, stays in Mikuni house?
 
OTOH, time stop and precognition make fires starting instantly and exactly at the right moments a real possibility.
Well, the whole thing would theoretically take a lot of Homu points to set up, so we'd just have to ask Homu to not fly off the handle and trust her.

Sayaka now, getting her in there might be difficult, meguca meet and greet or not. Maybe if we agree on and organize a Mikuni house burning after the event is done?

That way nobody should set the place in fire when they're not supposed to. :V
 
Hey guys I think I'm lucid again because I actually managed to vocalize all of this and I actually have a degree of confidence in it.

Again, this is regarding not this vote but how to deal with the Oriko convo, authored on an "if/when" basis. A lot of this stuff actually applies whether or not we talk to her now.

... All of it applies whether we talk to her now or not.

This has to be a 270-degree turn from what we've been doing. We've gotten Oriko used to emotional, "rage against the dying of the light, dammit" Sabrina, who won't even contemplate the idea that Oriko could really be destined to die. We're loud, we're brash, we trample on politeness when we feel the need to. And we're so obviously a good person that it works out.

Ugolino and others have raised points about the possibility that, at this point, basically nothing we can say will matter because she'll just shrug it off or ignore it or etc. And I can't help but feel that they're kind of right, because everything we've done and said has looked and sounded like the same stuff we've done so much. What's the precog spiral at this point but another thing we're saying? We'll end up using the same tone, and the same everything, etcetera. And we won't accept that we could be wrong, because that would mean not being able to save Oriko.

And doing that is going to torpedo this. Like, completely.

Being like that isn't wrong. In-setting it's, uh, actually kind of fucking right. But we need something totally different if we want to make a further impact here.

So I'm going to address a couple things here.

First, what the fuck are we hoping for? Well, there's three big points. We want Oriko to not go back to being a terrorist. We want Oriko to stop believing she has to die. We want Kirika to stop believing Oriko when Oriko says that Oriko has to die.

Getting Oriko to stop believing she has to die is frankly unlikely as an immediate result of this conversation.

Getting Oriko to not go back to being a terrorist is... it's hard to tell, but we have to achieve that. Because otherwise we've lost her.

Getting Kirika to stop believing Oriko about this, though, actually seems pretty reasonable.

"I am going to die," Oriko snaps, earning her a worried look from Kirika. "And I've told you. I've accepted that."

This line has stuck with me pretty heavily. And other stuff Kirika has done. I think some part of Kirika recognizes that going along with this isn't the right thing for her -- for them, rather -- to be doing. And I think we can really heavily affect that.

But we have to frame it as talking to Oriko. And if we want to maximize the chance of her taking things seriously, then we need another tack from what we've been taking. Something out of line with our normal behavior, but something we can fit into just as well.

But in fact, we have something that is exactly that. We don't use it much, because we don't need to in this quest, because it's weird and not the average person's way of talking things over.

But SV has a certain duality behind it: the fiery hope of overcoming all obstacles, and the cold science that we trust to enable that.

I am personally fucking sick of this mangled intercourse between us and Oriko. It's like two ideologues scratching each others' eyes out instead of an exchange between rational humans. And it's done a right good job of pissing her off.

So let's be fucking rational. Let's sit down, apologize for being rude, and then start positing theories, asking questions, gathering data, and questioning our own damn hypothesis. Be the scientist. We have a theory, she has a theory. We don't like her theory but we actually don't have the hard evidence to disprove it, merely a lot of logical arguments against it, so let's stop treating it like dirt because that pisses her off. Let's take her into account, and shape a discussion where, instead of having a situation where we plan questions like "is this about saving the world or killing yourself" as lead-ins and capstones, we consider what her emotional response to things is likely to be and we take steps to account for that in order to maintain as rational a discourse as we can -- if we have to say she's depressed, we say "I know this is un-Japanese, but bear with me" or some such.

And most of all, at every step of the course, let's actually maintain our own fallibility. Make this something we're not pushing on her. Not because we don't believe it, but because it will make her more willing to listen to us. I don't know that we ever could have successfully done this from a "this is truth, accept it" point of things -- from any angle where we hope to get her to accept what we're saying as we say it. But right now, we have two more achievable goals: we want to affect Kirika, and we want to deescalate Oriko. More than anything else, I think that what's really lit the fuse on Oriko has been our seeming unwillingness to compromise on anything in the conversations we've had with her. People have observed that Oriko seems to be doing better "now that she's in conflict with us again," I don't know how many people put stake in that, but that conflict is there because we try to push our ideas on her and don't make any apparent effort to consider hers -- that is that conflict.

- This conversation, as is, is shot in the foot and dead on arrival.
-- But we really don't like where it's being left off.
--- Use a pause (Homu's interruption) followed by a major demeanor change to affect a change of context & direction, which will allow us to continue the conversation with a much-less-shot foot.

- We want to deescalate Oriko.
-- She is currently escalating because we are pushing at her and not backing down.
--- Treat her with more respect, treat her theories as worth respect (not necessarily belief), point out our own breaches of politeness before we make them and ask forgiveness in advance, admit that we could be wrong, assert that our earlier actions had a return in order to slightly reduce how much they affect her judgement of us (currently she views the entire exchange up to this moment as pointless and offensive, saying that they had a point is at least one step up the ladder, and they did:)
You know Oriko's listening. That admission was more than you'd ever gotten out of her.

She wants to die. She's admitted as much, implicitly.


- We want to get through to Kirika
-- This is easiest goal, we really just need to succeed in presenting to her a possible situation where cooperating with Oriko's pursuit of suicide might actually be against Oriko's interests.
--- Involve Kirika in the discussion of the theory.

- We want to get the whole theory laid out and for O&K to actually consider it
-- Treat them with respect, same way you'd try to get another forumgoer to consider a theory
--- Ask them for input where possible, paint the situation as you having an unconfirmed but possible theory and you're looking for evidence that, conveniently, they might have.


[] Don't vocalize any of this. You're going to have to stay calm for the entire duration of this, because if you get emotional about it, it's going to look like it's supposition and hope speaking, not reason and logic. You've already done a wonderful job of making the impression on her that fireAndHope!Sabrina just argues at her and doesn't say anything of use. Be the scientist. Be the ice. The fire and the believer need to take a back seat for a bit. Also, you might have to cleanse her if any of this hits home well enough.
[] Tear down the privacy device, walk back over to the couch, and apologize to Oriko for, yes, the brusqueness, rudeness of your questions. But you did get what you were hoping to from them.
-[] If she asks what that was, ask if she'll give you a moment? Without any context it's quite useless and would probably just annoy her.
[] Tell her that you have a theory, and ask her to hear it out, because everything she's said jibes too well with it. But also note that, since it's a theory, it is in the end not something you'd just ask her to accept.
[] Explain that there's two sides to the theory, and that both are meaningless without the other, but obviously you can only cover one at a time. This is relevant because, alone, each half seems meaningless or even insulting.
-[] Note that you're aware of the Japanese tendency to minimize and disregard such things, then explain your belief that Oriko had major preexisting issues with depression before she made her wish. This is not either half of the theory, but it is the starting point.
-[] Observe that magic, being derived from humans, is not particularly separate from us (humans) -- we control it with our minds, it's practically another limb. Tell her that while you can't make claim to certainty, the idea that her depression wouldn't have contaminated her precognition is probably less reasonable than the opposite. Compare it to a meguca who can conjure up any sword, but who spent a year before contracting practicing with a katana. Even if it only happens on a subconscious level, that meguca will lean towards blades that are more like katanas.
-[] The other half, then, what is the result of feeding precognitive visions tainted with depression into the mind of somebody already depressed? And equally, as the visions reinforce the depression, won't the taint in those visions get worse and worse?
-[] You realize that proof is sparse. But where's the evidence for the competing theory, either? Ask about the vision granted by her wish. Did it include her death? After that, is there any correlation between time and the negativity of her visions? Can she think of any other evidence to bolster or weaken the theory? How about Kirika?

Some of this is probably overdramatized or slightly off path, which is why I've tried to lay it out in a hypothetical vote, as a list of points, and as an essay. But I hope that the overall point will carry through.
 
It's times like this that I wish that we had wished to be a mastigos. Grief clensing? Check. Lie detector? Check. Therapy we can do by smashing things with a hammer? Check. Conceptual bullshit is best.

Like being able to literally beat Oriko's fatalism into submission would fit with our persnality nicely.
 
I like the idea of keeping Oriko from going terrorist, which is why I asked which vote was least confrontational. And I thought that not only did it win, but it was cut off after agreeing with Oriko and before any of the still somewhat confrontational talk commenced.

Was I mistaken on this? What did we do to aggravate Oriko?

I thought the tenseness came from Oriko having a vision. And that could be explained by her seeing Kyouko and Sayaka having a heated disagreement.
 
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