I roll for "Challenges" of the age, and when I get sufficient interesting numbers in a tight cluster I will interpret that as a hero unit emerging.



See above. The star-axe (both times) was one of them.
Interesting peek behind the scenes. So basically Heroes emerge when times are troubled?

DP are a theocracy with vassalage, yes. Thunder Horse and the nomads in general are normally chaotic with no central leadership, but have a high hero unit generation and have objects that can generate legitimacy for them to have lineages of more powerful leaders.
So does that mean for Nomad diplomacy we're basically generating diplomacy points with particular lineages rather than with the whole? And so we get friendly nomads with a friendly lineage takes power?

You have yet to find it, if it even exists (they may very well be a collection of people who follow a similar lifestyle like the nomads, you don't know). You just traded the shit out of their neighbours and periphery who had lots of metal from trade with the source.
Heh, though their access to silver and lead, as well as enough copper to completely change their tool base to metal points to them being a settled people with the ability to dedicate a big chunk of their population to extracting ore and obtaining the fuel for that.
Hmmm... the paths have generally been closed off due to the growth of other groups, but it is to the south of the Highland Kingdom, so send a trade route there first to potentially find out more. Or send one Into the Wild and hope for the best.
Huh, got the direction wrong. Worth checking out anyway.

Could be the people the WC originally got their textiles from!
So, I'm looking at what we should be doing next turn, based on what we've been talking about, our current stats, our new hero's stats, and the new government type. This is all pretty malleable based on what happens, but I'm thinking this:

[FUT][Main] Build Wall - Lower Valleyhome
[FUT][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom / Thunderhorse
[FUT][Secondary] Expand Farms / Expand Fishing

So, the logic here is that the village chiefs should take care of minor walls around their settlements. It's prudent and seems like something they would do. However, Lower Valleyhome is right in the firing line. It needs a wall like Redshore(which ironically never needed it), especially if the DP come in force. Next up, if we are sporting a Trader Hero Chief, we should use him and get the most out of it. Firming up our ties with the Thunderhorse for more than just a generation or two is absolutely necessary if we are even thinking about conflict with the Dead Priests; a conflict that is looking ever more likely, even if we don't start it. Equally, setting up or sealing ties with our southern neighbors is also fairly necessary. Not to be cold, but they're our best meatshield. (Edit: According to AN, we have a chance of finding that elusive volcano if we go that way.) Finally, we do need to keep our Econ up. While we can certainly go towards zero, our people have become inured to a ridiculous abundance of food. This will only get worse as our population starts living longer with the lack of certain diseases. With a war in the wings that will be eating up a secondary action, we should aim to keep our econ up/raise it while we can.

I would continue on to do the next turn after or two, but I've realized that it's entirely useless to do so. Too much happens and the dice are fickle creatures.
Seems about reasonable to me.
Nah, using King will make people think "other kings have theirs sons become kings" so i want to avoid that, we need a title specific to out people and system of life, like Superior High-Chief, Supreme High Chief, Chief of High Chiefs...
The thing is that it gets clunkier and clunkier to say, and so the qualifier will fall out of use over time.

Way I see it we got this:
Big Man(Baron equivalent) - Probably still exists in some form in our various subgroups, but invisible at our abstraction level. Heads of families, proto-sergeants, senior shamans, etc.
Chief(Count equivalent) - They each manage one minor settlement, formerly major settlement(but as has been pointed out, the chief of each major settlement does enough work for minor settlements that they're doing the same work as past high chiefs). They deal with the various people on the ground.
High Chief(Duke equivalent) - Manages Major settlements, formerly rules whole polity, but there's so much work to do now that they need a new tier below them.
King(King title) - Manages one distinct geographical area, currently rules whole polity. No longer involved in ground level concerns.

Of course, keeping in mind the Feudal ranks sort of evolved from Roman military ranks, and there's other organizations possible. And that Emperor evolved from Imperator(which is basically Dictator) originally.

______________________________________________________________

On the 10th year of the reign of High Chief Bynwyn, a matter was presented to him to be judged with the full weight of his authority as High Chief for the matter had grown to be considered of sufficient import of his attention, as did its nature as one that involved more than one village.

Past the bringing in of nomadic peoples of the north whilst the nomads were in a time of strife, they would as would other immigrant peoples be inducted into the ways of the People that Harmony may be achieved. Many of their practices would fall by the way to accept the new ways they must learn to be productive members of the community, but on infrequent occasion they would bring with them traditions and ways which do not conflict with the teachings of the People, and so add to the shared culture of the People, strengthening all. With the nomads that had been accepted was a particular tradition which was little of matter in the north, but which has found great purchase in the fertile soil in the land of the People, and begun to grow more readily and fruitfully.

This tradition, as it was taken in the northern lands where the people roam and do not settle, involved the locating of a certain plant to be dried and crushed, then burnt. The smoke produced would be inhaled by those gathered, and such produce an effect of similarity and difference to the effects which one might accrue when imbibing beer. In the north this is uncommon due to the plant's relative rarity and it only growing in certain places, and as such the nomad peoples only partook in it on occasion when passing by, perhaps saving some for a later time.

When the nomads had come into our lands they brought with them samples of the crushed and dried leaves, and some seeds as well, for it was known to the nomadics of the People's knowledge of raising plants with mud and water. And so it was that many samples of the smoking herb was being grown and cultivated across the lands of the People. The cases where a new method of creating drinks of alcoholic nature had been brought in by outsiders caused little trouble and was not worthy of the High Chief's attention, for they merely applied the laws of works of the third kind and they would work as well as any other law. For the smoking herb, though for its similarities to its effects upon the mind and the body as beer and harder drink, there were indeed differences.

Upon one of those differences was that of its method of drunkenning, where it took upon the form of smoke and not of liquid. For beer, it is only the one intending to reap the natural effects of it who would be affected, but the spreading nature of the smoking herb meant that others who might not want for it would be affected. On this, the matter was quickly settled, and the High Chief Bynwyn declared with great swiftness upon presentation three laws:
The first law, which dictated that the burning of the smoking herb may not be done in proximity towards others but those that express a mutual interest in inhalation of the smoke.
The second law, which dictated that the herb may not be wilfully smoked by any who have not taken the Rites of Passage, or of women encumbered with child.
The third law, which dictated that the smoking herb may not be lit with flame within a house resided in by any who have not taken the Rites of Passage, or of women encumbered with child.

So decreed High Chief Bynwyn, and so it became law across all the lands of the People, furthering the cause of Harmony with man and the spirits. The next issue with the smoking herb was brought to him immediately following his decree. This was a more serious issue. Those who had been growing the smoking herb has primarily been farmers, who tended the lands of the People, for the People, and entrusted by them a duty to perform Work of the First Kind - the acquiring of food for the community's benefit, upon and with the land entrusted to him by the People. Upon the plots of land upon which they worked, they had taken with them the time, resources, and land to cultivate not food for the benefit of all, but seeds of the smoking herb that may be enjoyed by the farmer and family and friends. Even the fullest extent of these activities were but a fraction of their actions, for the remained putting a great amount more of their labour into their assigned duties, but even so it was enough to be considered a breach of duty.

And so, for this threatened to harm the wellbeing of the whole People, if only but a little, High Chief Bynwyn thought much on this matter, speaking with his advisors, and the Farming Chieftess for the presence of her domain. What should have been the topic of minutes became hours, for though the actions of these farmers were clearly disharmonious, their discussion grew quickly, the bounds escaping beyond the mere decision of the punishment for such dereliction of their duty. And so, with the high noon sun's crawl across the heavens and casting an orange glow across the still-blue sky, it was decided a course of action:
The farmers who had engaged in these acts were clearly acting in disharmonious fashion, and would receive a small infraction for their crimes. Their punishment might have been greater, but for the combined lack of both a decisive law in this matter and the ultimate minor nature of their actions.

However, that was not the only decree. This cultivation of the smoking herb will for now and ever more be designed as Work of the Third Kind, and so to grow them would be a proper work, but one which must not interfere with the Work of the First Kind or the Work of the Second Kind, such as all other such Works of the Third Kind. To this end, farmers who worked the field to reap food would remain unallowed to be distracted from their sacred duty, but, upon allowance by the High Chief's own inquest, other farmers may work other plots of land to instead grow this new variety of plant, and thus would owe a portion of the People the fruits of their labour - a very large one, alike to beer.

And so it was the Harmony was disrupted by the actions of a few, and so it was the Harmony was restored by the actions of the will of the many and of the spirits, by the High Chief of the People.
Side note, marijuana type plants would probably play into the Harmony considering the state of mind it puts you into, and most likely experimented on first by the Shamans.
What about heroic asshole? Like "Lü Bu" (aka chronic backstabbing disorder"). Proud, charismatic, martial hero, and very ambitious.
Generally these types are a problem...though with our cultural traits it's pretty hard for them to get their hands on power.

Our people respect humility and serving the community after all. Even our corrupt chiefs started out as protecting THEIR community's interests when they felt the community was threatened.

Someone mainly out for number one, even with Hero stats, probably would never go past Elite Warrior in our culture, barring a very unlikely series of events. He'd excel at pure skill based endeavors, but the lack of community spirit and arrogance means he can't be elected into anything, only appointed.
@Academia Nut Would the blue quarry provide econ the following turn or art and diplo?
Speculation: Blue quarry settlement would unlock a new action for Expand Quarries.

Though it'd cost us centralization when we need it...
 
One of the big problems we're having is that we still don't have writing which would make a lot of our centralization issues much less dire, its extremely annoying that despite all the actions we've taken related to it we still haven't gotten it.
 
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
METAL TOOLS! Copper needles! Copper weapons!
And Metal Miners have smelting. Further proof that we are falling behind on metalworking, which has to be fixed.
Why are people talking about expanding forests (which local chiefs will do on their own) and stuff, when we can and should do a lot of land surveying to discover our own metal sources?
As I believe has been pointed out, we don't have the econ and want to take advantage of our king's diplo score.

Considering we're about to seriously shuffle around our system, it will require a large number of resources to stabilize ourselves, and then we have to buckle down on military. Our best option for doing stuff involving advancing metal working would be to send an actual trade mission to the metal workers themselves, since that would take advantage of our high diplo. That may not be possible, honestly, and we may have to settle for importing mettle tools.

Before we truly make any commitments, though, we're going to have to see what rewards we get for finishing the mega-project (if it gives econ on a notable level, that will be a game changer) and the fallout of our government change. If we can, say, see newnet building new trails automatically, or they do so between now and the next update, some centralization concerns will be solved. If not, we will likely have centralization concerns.

Way too much is happening this turn to fully predict what we need to do next turn.
 
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)

I wanted to do more diplomacy anyway.
 
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)

While do I feel that there's a bandwagon forming?

:p
 
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[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
One of the big problems we're having is that we still don't have writing which would make a lot of our centralization issues much less dire, its extremely annoying that despite all the actions we've taken related to it we still haven't gotten it.
We do have writing. Logograms were the dominant form of writing for thousands of years. They're still used to the modern day. We don't have a true mathematics system, but...

So what's the problem then?
 
that theoretically tho... how to fix?
Probably just have to suck it up and wait for a problem to develop so that more stringent laws can be put in place.
What's the difference between mediocre and average?
Mediocre is (at least) two steps below average (using a previous hero unit's stats - Mediocre X, Poor Y, Average Z, Heroic A, as a basic measuring stick).

New Heir?
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[] Standard

There has been a proposal to build more boats
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[] No (No change)

Increase rights and responsibilities of local chiefs?
[] Maintain status quo
[] Small increase to local power (Various effects, alters action spread)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom (Elected), alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)

Government can be adjusted. For now, we need the increased tolerance for hierarchy that a more advanced government system provides, even if it does eat centralization for now.
 
If we are getting a Great and Powerful new ruler title, it needs to properly describe what makes our civ, our civ.
I can only think of one word that represents that Unstoppable Greatness.

- Gwygoyth / Gwygoytha -

- (Spouse) / (Ruler) -

(No, i am NOT joking.)
 
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[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
@veekie wouldn't/didn't protest that squads come from something other than having more warriors to organize into squads or a need to do so to have more fluid movement in the case of carts. Carts will provide better material tech due to planks, and maybe if we get a DO cart treated leather, too.
Armor maybe comes from more warriors but the ability to do so comes from material technology.
Study Forest is more likely to provide poisons and cotton than blackbirds or farming alone. Study Health is more likely to provide medicine than warriors.
Raids on the DP are an easy/reliable way of getting tech for armor and weapons.
So basically do we want a shield against nomads and later Econ or current Econ, balanced against do we want to save Econ or help the HK become a shield against DP.

Going to sleep.
Except again, we HAVE the material technology. We build planked boats. We figured out the Wicker armor the moment we saw it because we already knew how to build wood cages(we use them for fishing and a number of wier designs).

The carts are valuable, but the problem is we've only expanded Warriors twice in our entire civilization.
Read the fluff please:
-Blackbirds were trained from our base warrior population. This is why they only cost Mysticism, the manpower is already allocated to warriors.
-Cart warriors are simply elite warriors equipped with carts. This is why they only cost the Econ of building the cart, the manpower is simply taken again, from the best warriors.
-Our regulars have a large proportion of archers, and a weak front line since the time of lower valleyhome.
-We've been discussing adding another Sacred Warrior type, more Blackbirds, or more Carts, all of which further reduce the proportion and quality of our regulars because their best are being taken away for special forces, while they don't increase on their own.

What does that say about our army size? It's small, as small as the Spirit Talkers' were, possibly smaller. That's why AN said we'd get facewrecked on anything other than defense, we've been making the exact same mistake as the STs, building an army that's pretty much just elites and specialty units instead of having a line force.
Our military weakness is not diversity, but quantity. Our main weakness is a frail melee line, which we experienced right last turn, when we sent a significant force, which got outnumbered AND that represented 2 points of Martial.

If we want a shield against nomads we need FAR more base warriors. If we get a decent Martial leader double Main Martial may not go amiss.
Because that probably won't happen for 4ish turns? The actions the local chiefs take are pretty random (with some leanings towards certain things). We should get thick ass forests in the north now, before the nomads start raiding our northern settlement again.
As AN already said, our terrain bonuses are great...and our terrain bonuses won't stop them forever. People adapt, and the Nomads have been dealing with our walls and forests for a while now. We simply don't have the number of warriors to actually man all the forests to stave them off that way

For the Nomads, the best solution to deal with them with the current chief is probably a trade mission to build positive ties with the Thunder Horse. He's a Heroic diplomat, this is his thing, end war through trade.

You see, look to the bolded part. What our Chiefs will do is based on their percieved problems and traits:
-Shapers of the Land + Sacred Forest - For all settlements which are not fully Forested, Expand Forest is always a possibility. It's a holy act for our people to work the land and shape it productively.

-Protective Justice + Harmony - For all settlements facing Disharmony(not necessarily polity wide, I think we're large enough now that the major settlements may have their own local conditions), the chiefs are likely to perform small scale Restore Harmony or Festivals at Stability 1 and 0 in the larger settlements.

Then you look at the sites(Valleyhome in more detail because I ran out of motivation):
-Valleyhome - Near fully developed, all the land is cultivated on nearly every inch and the most densely populated, their primary concerns are social and political.
--Build Wall - Low priority for us, but maybe not locally.
--Festival/Restore Harmony - Social issues. Being at Stability 0 is going to be...uncomfortable at their population density.
--Expand Holy Sites - Likewise, with so many people they're liable to be interested in a larger holy site to provide for the medical coverage from our megaproject(and politically to butter up the local shaman so they'd support them on greater politics). A primary temptation for shaman chiefs to expand personal power.
--Expand Warriors - Concerns over the greater military situation and high manpower also means that they might actually run out of land for idle hands to work locally. Expand Warriors would put some of these to work. A primary temptation for warrior chiefs to expand personal power.
--More Blackbirds - Ties into the high population density, more Blackbirds means more oversight.
--New Trails/New Settlement - Possible choice. They're near the Lapis Lazuli site, and also the ones most likely to decide that expanding towards the former Spirit Talkers is profitable.
--Study Forests/Survey Lands - Look for resources to exploit. Requires higher Mysticism to reflect idle shamans to employ, otherwise will take Expand Holy Site first.
--Study Health - More likely in larger settlements, as the sheer population density means diseases spread like wildfire.

-Lower Valleyhome - Relatively the younger of our major settlements, most of the land around it is already fully developed. Lower Valleyhome's primary concern are military and trade, as they are closest to the Lowland Kingdom and the Dead Priests.
--Build Wall - High priority for them if we don't do it. They're the most exposed, and the dry and open badlands makes it easy for chariot riders to go up the paths we put there to reach them.
--Expand Warriors - Not enough armed dudes to feel safe. They're running defense, and since they have traders going south, they need a lot more warriors to provide escorts for caravans and also the settlement.
--Build War Carts - Similarly, that means they want to patrol the badlands and they need more carts for that.
--Expand Forests - They'd probably do this after the military improvements, but expanding forests into the badlands, while hideously expensive without a large excess of Black Soil, is a good solution for them. The main challenge is getting water out there.
--Black Soil - See Expand Forests
--Trade Mission/Lowland settlement - If their sense of danger from the south is low, these two become a distinct possibility. This is probably one of the complications mentioned, because the lowland settlement is slated to be one of the most productive possible sites for settlements by Word of AN.

-Redshore - Our second oldest settlement, Redshore has been largely cultivated fully, and in a nice and secure location. Their fishing efforts are maxed out as it is.
--Expand Snail Cultivation - Their primary trade good, and demand will be very high now that our polity is so large.
--Expand Fishing - Take advantage of the new boat design to range even further out.
--More Boats - More boats = More Everything for them.
--New Settlement/New Trails - The coast has at least two more settlement sites. They're likely to expand in those directions.
--Sailing Mission - A bit of a shot in the dark, but a risk taker chief might try it.

-Stonepen - Relatively recent, but already largely developed with lots of pastures, their main issue is nomad raiders
--Expand Warriors - Not enough armed dudes to feel safe. They're running defense, and since they have traders going north, they need a lot more warriors to provide escorts for caravans and also the settlement.
--Build War Carts - Similarly, that means they want to patrol the nearer steppes and they need more carts for that.
--Expand Forests - Slightly more iffy, because they use the land for pasturing animals as their primary produce, even if it helps fend off the Nomads, it hurts their key trades.
--Trade Mission - Their second lifeblood, as they can trade past the nomads at high risk for matching rewards. Will likely be after a Warrior boost so they can actually escort the traders.
--New Settlement+Walls - These two generations are GREAT for starting new settlements while the Nomads are on the backfoot, so they can roll out new settlements and wall them before raiding resumes again.

-Mistyhome - There's been a settlement here for a long time, but it's known more as a place of spirits, so they'd be focused mainly on the Study and Survey actions, or further improving the trails connecting our internal settlements. Might not count as a major site.

-Mistysnake - Still very new, and ripe for new farms or pastures. This is mainly a trade settlement internally, they're a primary stop point for the canal shipments.

-Newnet - They'd be taking a fair while before they count. For now they'd be passively expanding their fishing and boats.

Looking back I saw this:

So after we raise our centralization and mysticism, I think it might be a good idea to research how we managed to combat senility in our High Chief. Because I think this route might be a good way to maximize the usefulness of our hero units and delay the degradation of their abilities as they age.
Not so urgently I think. Because it turns out that the High Chief back then was fatigued, distracted and thus forgetful from old age and working long hours, not actually senile. Senility cannot be cured even in the modern day, but an old man working long hours?

Well, remember this is before coffee. A stimulant drug like coffee would have given him the pickup needed to work himself to death like is honorable.

If the local chiefs get more power, would they setup more settlements even if it reduces their power? (Duu to more competition and lower population)

Do we have means to keep the local chiefs from bloating in size & number and from demanding more power?

I can only hope we maintain tight control over warriors.
1) People do that all the time. Especially for large mature settlements, starting a new settlement lets you offload population pressure, and gain authority(remember, until it becomes a major settlement, new minor settlements would likely be under the jurisdiction of the founding settlement)

2) That's probably what AN meant by complications. Sort of like when we first went to Early Kingdom and had to deal with proud leaders, when we went to High chief and had to deal with corruption/gaming the election system. We're inevitably going to be dealing with complications from moving to Provincial. Having high Stability would probably help with going through it smoothly.

3) Each settlement's chief already has command of their local warriors. Otherwise it'd be a logistical nightmare to use them to guard caravans, run patrols, etc. We'd need to take Expand Warriors as a main to possibly trigger the idea of a national army...or do that and spam holy warriors to have a shaman led army.
We need writing. :( Pity we have no idea on how to acquire it. Maybe our increased bureaucracy would help...
Can't force it, but it'd probably more likely if we had the shaman population to support a revision of the language.

OR, we just keep going as we are and see the chiefs figure out better writing because god damn they have a lot of instructions to give out.
 
If we are getting a Great and Powerful new ruler title, it needs to properly describe what makes our civ, our civ.
I can only think of one word that represents that Unstoppable Greatness.

- Gwygoyth / Gwygoytha -

- (King) / (Queen) -

(No, i am NOT joking.)
I'll have you know that Gwygoytha can represent both men and women perfectly fine. And technically Gwygoytha is no longer known as Gwygoytha due to linguistic shifts.

Other than that, oh god yes!
 
@Academia Nut, what is the possibility of effecting a long peace with the Nomads by sending a Heroic Diplomat on a Trade Mission to them?
Probably limited. Based on his description of the Nomads, you have three main modes for the whole zone:
-Horde mode - Powerful Hero leader arises to command the horde, operating as a single unified entity. This is a transient state, their heirs generally cannot hold onto the horde entirely. Past patterns indicate they get a new Hero every 3-4 turns or so. Raids usually unbeatable by sheer weight of warrior numbers.
-Trade mode - A majority of the independent clans in the area prefers trade. Raiding continues, but is rebuffed by other nomads given adequate defenses. More likely when martial rating is high.
-Raid mode - A majority of the independent clans in the area prefer raiding. Trade shuts down. More likely when martial rating is low.

Our trade missions build ties with and strengthens specific clans, so when they are dominant, we're more likely to have them in Trade mood. Currently the Thunder Horse have some relative dominance due to Axe and Cart legitimacy boost, but not enough to actually horde up the whole steppes, hence their ability to call off raids on us.

Running trade missions should increase the probability that more of the clans are favorable to us and will keep their friends off. We're defensively stiff enough that it takes a fair number of Nomads to try to take a crack at it.

Lasting peace...probably not. Hopefully the Thunder Horse will build cultural memory that the Hill Devils are cool dudes and traditional allies, so whenever they're on top the raids stop.
 
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