DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
ah @Academia Nut is in the thread! as you can see, AN, we are fiercely debating a matter of PoCQ lore... could you please illuminate us?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
And now for the daily "veekie goes over everything happening while he's asleep"
-We had 2 Martial
-We committed a secondary war mission, investing 2 Martial
-We ate the Econ hit to generate 1 Martial
-We lost 2 invested Martial
So I stand by that decision given the information available at the time AND knowledge of the outcome. That the free cities will generate 2 more Martial for us instead of taking City Support and not starving was unknown and unknowable.
Nothing permanent was lost to the ensuing chaos, though it was absolutely risky, we preserved one of our oldest institutions.
Hmm, interesting. It'd be popular, but the wealth cost would make it difficult to cash in. Based on the price it looks like an Extended Project.
Support BUYS loyalty, but gives them the resources to reduce Dependency. Influence targets their culture and leadership, but actually pisses people off as much as it helps because of displacement.
Either way, palaces are real shiny now.
Nothing new dude. Other than the turns we were frantically trying to keep the Golden Age going, we've been either in one crisis or another.
Also FYI the solution is still Better Roads, since that'd give us half the solution of "integrate rest of Western Wall"
I imagine the Highland Kingdom would have a market for the stuff.
And remember again our legal and cultural setup. You can't horde large amounts of personal wealth, and if you want to stay rich you'd be competing all the time with the other rich people, so blissing out would drop them into a lower caste pretty quickly.
Self rectifying problem.
Yep. This is important, no civilization that natively produces sugar, liquor or opium has been afflicted by the stuff, because they've already developed stigmas and social practices to control it.
Cultures which were suddenly introduced to large quantities of refined sugar, hard liquor and opium tended to go overboard. Cultures which grew up around them usually has them prevalent and included in a lot of minor rituals and practices, and usually some level of genetic resistance to addiction.
I'd be more worried about say including a big sack of opium in a First Contact salt gift rendering the foreign leadership into a heap of blissed out idiocy.
They don't know about the god fist.
They have low chances of knowing about The Pure dying to plague accurately, but high chances of hearing some distorted 9th hand rumors(we can estimate that they don't have the remnants of the Pure joining them, because they don't have their own Purity trait and disease).
Their first contact with us would be basically the Salt Gift. Probably with our nomad refugees as part of the emissaries.
Thats how disease control largely works. You quarantine the afflicted people and animals, let it burn out to a less deadly form, then end quarantine.
It's actually easier for animals since you could just slaughter the afflicted and burn them directly.
They are allowed to wage war internally and each settlement is largely independent, which gives them a large number of secondary province actions, in exchange for not getting many controlled or coordinated actions.
Just that we basically destroyed all of those in our area, because they are amazingly fragile to environmental disasters, which means that normally they'd lose half their cities and then respawn them within the next 3 centuries...but the Ymaryn deathblows them.
The funny thing is, In Service to Order says they like the idea and bought into it more than we ever did.
That is the thing here. In Ancient China, under the Confucian belief system(not actually a religion, but it works close enough to act like one), the Law has an authority of it's own.
It is written and updated by mortal hands yes, but the implication is that the Law comes from divine inspiration, and that should your King be in violation or the Law be unjust, the gods will punish them for it.
This may be mildly complicated by language, since Divine Magic(as opposed to sorcery or trickery) is literally "Law Technique", and court mystics will literally write and burn talismans which are calligraphic request forms for requisitioning rain.
Problem here is that we're oversimplifying in some ways and overcomplicating it in others. Which leads to everyone arguing definitions.
So I'll hit up what I think is our definition of land ownership:
-Legal
--All land within Ymaryn cultivation belongs to the Ymaryn as a people, stewarded by the King for the People, the Patricians for the King, the Yeomen for the Patricians and the Farmers for the Yeomen.
--Actual borders are not surveyed or defined, we count 'our' land where we have built, grown or otherwise managed the land.
--Those misusing or mismanaging the land are breaking the Law.
-Spiritual
--All land belongs to the Gods, with the land we work being held in trust from the Gods by the King as a divine responsibility. And this trust is passed down the hierarchy of the People.
--Thus, land lost is trust forsaken. We have a divine responsibility to see that the trust is carried out. You cannot have some foreign man plow your gardens and cut down your forests. Such is anathema.
-Practical/Cultural
--The farmer is bound to to land that he gardens. Regardless of what everyone else says, when you invest as much work into the land as we do, you get attached to, if nothing else the work you had invested. The tree your grandfather planted, the terraces you dug, the Black Soil laid down and improved from hard bare soil each generation. You OWN it.
The basis for Stability loss then would be:
-Personal attachment to the land from the ones working it says that the actual farmers are most attached to the land.
-Spiritual definition says that by losing land under his administration, the King has betrayed the gods.
-Also insert gardening related innuendo.
Note that every basis of the action had come true:
-We had 2 Martial
-We committed a secondary war mission, investing 2 Martial
-We ate the Econ hit to generate 1 Martial
-We lost 2 invested Martial
So I stand by that decision given the information available at the time AND knowledge of the outcome. That the free cities will generate 2 more Martial for us instead of taking City Support and not starving was unknown and unknowable.
Nothing permanent was lost to the ensuing chaos, though it was absolutely risky, we preserved one of our oldest institutions.
Not as bad as I thought. Only the Western Wall is at the splinter point, the other two are merely dangerous.
Guess we sent enough dudes over to restore them to "actually functional" and they are singing our praises for not letting them die.
Hmm, interesting. It'd be popular, but the wealth cost would make it difficult to cash in. Based on the price it looks like an Extended Project.
We know for a fact that the action list doesn't show everything actions do.
Support BUYS loyalty, but gives them the resources to reduce Dependency. Influence targets their culture and leadership, but actually pisses people off as much as it helps because of displacement.
I think some of the benefits simply don't scale properly. Depends on the narrative. But tech refund was explicitly the Shrine 1+Library 1+Arsenal 1 combo(can't remember who kept insisting it was the Arsenal though).Oooh, nice catch, i hadn't noticed AN had updated the civ sheet again
Pro:
-0.5 Min Cent Tolerance
+1 Temp Econ Damage Resistance
+1 Max Interconnectivity
+1 RA Tolerance
+0.5 Tech Refund (Rounds down)
+1/3 City Admin Support (Functionally +1 Max Cent Tolerance, Rounds Down)
+1 City Attraction if in a City Candidate
Eases administrative issues
Con:
-1 Max Cent Tolerance
Can serve as core of breakaway state, and strengthens local patricians' power vs the king's
Also interesting in that it proves both @veekie and i right on how the palace annex/gov palace works. Like veekie thought, its a "as if each GP has 1 level lower for annex"*, and like i thought, its not full strength in all cases, since it would be broken if each palace gave a tech refund
*Or maybe half of the level? I'd have to look at the actual numbers more to do so, and i'm making an early dinner right now
Either way, palaces are real shiny now.
Fucking finally.
Also, @veekie , guess who was proven right by history?
We were garbage at seas compared to them and they did collapse but our lack of colonies to their east did mean we could not capitalize on it as well as we'd want.
Welcome from July 15.
Also called that we will be getting fucked by our reluctance to influence, but that was obvious for pretty much everyone
Nothing new dude. Other than the turns we were frantically trying to keep the Golden Age going, we've been either in one crisis or another.
Also FYI the solution is still Better Roads, since that'd give us half the solution of "integrate rest of Western Wall"
Trader faction quest: Make someone buy a lot of it in exchange for gold or silver.
I imagine the Highland Kingdom would have a market for the stuff.
Not quite distillation. Alembics were good for distilling METAL, but we don't have a lot of fine temperature control to crystallize opium yet.
And remember again our legal and cultural setup. You can't horde large amounts of personal wealth, and if you want to stay rich you'd be competing all the time with the other rich people, so blissing out would drop them into a lower caste pretty quickly.
Self rectifying problem.
Yep. This is important, no civilization that natively produces sugar, liquor or opium has been afflicted by the stuff, because they've already developed stigmas and social practices to control it.
Cultures which were suddenly introduced to large quantities of refined sugar, hard liquor and opium tended to go overboard. Cultures which grew up around them usually has them prevalent and included in a lot of minor rituals and practices, and usually some level of genetic resistance to addiction.
I'd be more worried about say including a big sack of opium in a First Contact salt gift rendering the foreign leadership into a heap of blissed out idiocy.
While the argument is already over due to lock, the whole point is that the nomad chief doesn't. Iron age communications is really poor.
They don't know about the god fist.
They have low chances of knowing about The Pure dying to plague accurately, but high chances of hearing some distorted 9th hand rumors(we can estimate that they don't have the remnants of the Pure joining them, because they don't have their own Purity trait and disease).
Their first contact with us would be basically the Salt Gift. Probably with our nomad refugees as part of the emissaries.
We instituted animal quarantine. That's the big trick. Once we knew to look for coughing cows and horses we could shut down cyclic reinfection simply by keeping the herds clean of disease.
Thats how disease control largely works. You quarantine the afflicted people and animals, let it burn out to a less deadly form, then end quarantine.
It's actually easier for animals since you could just slaughter the afflicted and burn them directly.
We actually know for a fact that City State confederacies are a low cent form of government. The Western Confederacy followed that model of government until we sucked them to death.
They are allowed to wage war internally and each settlement is largely independent, which gives them a large number of secondary province actions, in exchange for not getting many controlled or coordinated actions.
Just that we basically destroyed all of those in our area, because they are amazingly fragile to environmental disasters, which means that normally they'd lose half their cities and then respawn them within the next 3 centuries...but the Ymaryn deathblows them.
The funny thing is, In Service to Order says they like the idea and bought into it more than we ever did.
That is the thing here. In Ancient China, under the Confucian belief system(not actually a religion, but it works close enough to act like one), the Law has an authority of it's own.
It is written and updated by mortal hands yes, but the implication is that the Law comes from divine inspiration, and that should your King be in violation or the Law be unjust, the gods will punish them for it.
This may be mildly complicated by language, since Divine Magic(as opposed to sorcery or trickery) is literally "Law Technique", and court mystics will literally write and burn talismans which are calligraphic request forms for requisitioning rain.
Problem here is that we're oversimplifying in some ways and overcomplicating it in others. Which leads to everyone arguing definitions.
So I'll hit up what I think is our definition of land ownership:
-Legal
--All land within Ymaryn cultivation belongs to the Ymaryn as a people, stewarded by the King for the People, the Patricians for the King, the Yeomen for the Patricians and the Farmers for the Yeomen.
--Actual borders are not surveyed or defined, we count 'our' land where we have built, grown or otherwise managed the land.
--Those misusing or mismanaging the land are breaking the Law.
-Spiritual
--All land belongs to the Gods, with the land we work being held in trust from the Gods by the King as a divine responsibility. And this trust is passed down the hierarchy of the People.
--Thus, land lost is trust forsaken. We have a divine responsibility to see that the trust is carried out. You cannot have some foreign man plow your gardens and cut down your forests. Such is anathema.
-Practical/Cultural
--The farmer is bound to to land that he gardens. Regardless of what everyone else says, when you invest as much work into the land as we do, you get attached to, if nothing else the work you had invested. The tree your grandfather planted, the terraces you dug, the Black Soil laid down and improved from hard bare soil each generation. You OWN it.
The basis for Stability loss then would be:
-Personal attachment to the land from the ones working it says that the actual farmers are most attached to the land.
-Spiritual definition says that by losing land under his administration, the King has betrayed the gods.
-Also insert gardening related innuendo.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Err...no offense, but are you joking here and i'm just missing the sarcasm? Because you were one of the people thinking it was arsenal
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
no foreign pube barbers, got it
We know from the last time its a factor of:
-Stability + Legitimacy
-Loyalty
-Dependency
We know high Dependency means they can't rebel because they lack essential services, while high Loyalty means they don't want to rebel.
Patching Western Wall's loyalty and raising Stability should cover for it for now.
We SHOULD still influence the rest in the coming turns however. Theres still a big pile of explosives even if we quenched the detonator
AN explained the past Stallion problem before. They were Loyal but low Dependency meant that they lost Loyalty very quickly in a crisis because they could deal with it without the Crown.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I concluded later it wasn't the Arsenal(which gave a tech drip not a refund)Err...no offense, but are you joking here and i'm just missing the sarcasm? Because you were one of the people thinking it was arsenal
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
I'd be more worried about say including a big sack of opium in a First Contact salt gift rendering the foreign leadership into a heap of blissed out idiocy.
That sounds like an awesome (albiet shockingly unethical) way to deal with prospective nomad threats. Can't invade the Ymaryn if they're your dealer.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Combined with 3 Vassal Support Policies via our AI policies, that velocity of Loyalty loss becomes yet more important relatively - i.e. they might go from -0.5 and -0.25 Loyalty per turn to -0.25 and +0 Loyalty per turn and then it would be one problematic and one stable colony rather than one highly problematic and one problematic colony.
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I know, but I haven't seen any of our actions lie this much in a long time...
It's actually probably indicative that our ability to handle our vassals is utter crap, now that I think about it.
Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I'm looking over The Great Library's cost, and it's -3 Myst and -3 Culture/action with something like 7 actions and 2 additional econ...
All things considered, does this sound like a Wonder to anyone else?
Smells like a Wonder yep.
Unethical as hell so its the sort of gift most suited to Oral Tradition types.
Those with writing might bear a grudge once the ones NOT blissed out replace the last batch.
It worked though. Strong(especially distilled) alcohol did a massive number on native americans, Opium gave China hell...
Unethical as hell so its the sort of gift most suited to Oral Tradition types.
Those with writing might bear a grudge once the ones NOT blissed out replace the last batch.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
Hopefully it is, but it is fairly low on the priority list even so.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Or the leader's heir and next in line notices the leader getting stoned or bat shit insane from withdrawal decide to spread the word that Ymaryn was passing out honeyed poison and thus had to die. We aren't always the biggest martial power so when the withdrawal kicked in, we will as well.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
Could backfire. I'm sure China regrets the British's insatiable addiction to tea.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Considering that it's an improved version of an existing megaproject? Almost certainly. And yeah, that moves it up a little on the timetable so that the Khemetri don't get there first.
- Location
- Hell
I am pretty sure they did not dislike the silver it got them. Now the Opium England forced on them on the other hand...
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Trading opium is, technically speaking, trading.
Something tells me the Khemetri aren't particularly concerned with Megaprojects at the moment.
- Location
- Staring into the void
It's fine when you're the dealer, not the buyer.
(Opium is worse because it's a much harder drug than tea.)
Yeah, it's probably a Wonder. Still, at this point I think our best route to any reasonably long megaprojects is to start up a Golden Age and use megaproject tracks to get the things done with minimal action inputs. (We will need to keep a close eye on our stats to fund it though)
No one's looking to manually build megaprojects any time soon (except a few who really want the dam). This is longer term planning.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Do remember we have confirmation that the plague was not very bad in rural areas outside of our own, so the Khemetri core might actually have come out of this a lot better than we expected, depending on how quickly they abandoned their colonies...
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
Speaking of Wonders anyone have a guess on how much more development we need to unlock a Great Palace-type Wonder?
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Roads to 100%
Then we make all roads end in VallyHome.
Then we get it.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
+1
If KH's nobility / non-nobility population are segregated to sufficient degree than their religious elites would be untouched, which reinforces their divinity and traits. So a quicker than expected recovery is likely. Do wonder if their working beasts are kept segregated as well.
- Location
- Hell
At any rate, Centralization would definitely be low enough to at least slot in one. So yay.
*cross fingers*