- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
ROADS ROAAAAAAADDADASSSSSSS.
cough more roads
cough more roads
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Illinois
An alliance based on something like that requires a much more complex level of diplomatic understanding than we have right now. Even the Games stretch the bounds of what is diplomatically possible.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
I now have the oddest feeling that whenever we annex a vassel our priests have religious ceremonies claiming the land for the gods.
Believed we tried that with a previous Nomad chieftain, ended up giving us peace for a few generations and the HH so not a terrible idea.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
The Greeks is a show case for what happens when factions have all the power and there isn't a central anything.
The games is basically the stupidly advanced equivalent of our copper age laws. I still scratch my head as to why we weren't investing heavily into diplo upon getting it and trying to solve all our foreign issues that way, as we could probably brute force some major diplo advances with it.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Hence why I used our ban on slavery as an example that we do sometimes follow modern attitudes. Of course, that won't always be possible, and I recognize that. But I think the whole... approach here is wrong. IMO, we should see what would be the ethically best course (with, yes, our modern mindset) and then see how much of that is realistically translatable into the game and its iron age society. Like... see the first tax crisis. We failed there with too modern methods, but that was indeed a question of not yet having the sufficient means for what we tried (i.e., advanced maths for one). So IMO the discussion should be on that level: Can we realistically implement the ethically good course in the game, and if not, why not? And yes, I do think not forcing regions to be part of our state, instead relying on their loyalty, is the ethical course; so the question becomes how feasible is that in-game?
Yes, but that just further supports my point, doesn't it? They did maintain a sort of Greek identity despite all that, despite their wars, political rivalries, and tribal identities within the Greek identity.
Well, since stability is an effect of our society, it would hinge on whether our people still accept those people as sufficiently Ymaryn. It would hinge on subjective opinion of our people. And for now, well, they still have accepted the Western Ymarin as being of the People.
But I'm not suggesting that! I'm not suggesting we de-centralize or federalize or anything. The Kingdom of Ymaryn would go on as before, with the same high cent, and then there would be other Ymaryn states besides that. That's all.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Pride in Acceptance says we can do that
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Susano the first split off nation we have/had immediately backtracked into using slaves. The Greeks were able to do it does not mean SV can.
Which is what we don't want. It leads to either Highlander syndrome (as in 'there can only be one', not HK) caused by RA and greedy colonies trying to get our Wonders because they need them to keep our values working and can't build their own due to lack of knowledge.
Or to colonies that drift away, as they have to abandon our high maintenance values and pick up what their neighbors have, thus becoming slavers and such. The half-exile system has already deteriorated into virtual slavery in our rural regions after all, and there's no telling how bad it is in the nomad influenced country of Western Wall, or out in Tin River near the former Trelli.
Last edited:
- Location
- Illinois
The problem is that a high cent government requires control. Letting the colonies go their own way as they wish would damage the very foundation of a high cent government, because it is based on the King's control of, well, everything. If the king can't control his vassals, then he is weak and ineffective. You'd be setting our kingdom up for collapse, as both vassal and even provinces lose faith in the government.
And then you also have to keep in mind that without our central control, it is very unlikely that the colonies would stay even close to what we consider Ymaryn for long. Just their possession of PiA all but guarantees that their culture would rapidly diverge from ours, and based on what the WY immediately decided to do the moment they established their own nation, I suspect you would not find the resultant culture to your liking.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
No, there actually doesn't. The decision of whether we take a Stab hit isn't up to us, the voters, it's up to AN. So it's perfectly fine if he just decides each case on an ad-hoc basis, or comes up with such a line himself, but either way we don't need to (or indeed get to) decide on a delineation.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Locking in as:
[X][Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X][React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X][React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X][React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X][PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X][Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X][React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X][React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X][React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X][PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
You're failing to grasp that this requires a level of education that is quite frankly ludicrously beyond our current capabilities, in addition to several social advances.
The government currently is not run by the Law, like a modern society. The position of the King is there as a representation of being the guy in charge of all that are Ymaryn. The King literally is the law now and for there to be another Ymaryn King is a direct challenge to the entire government and nothing less than a full blown rebellion. To change this to what we consider government in the modern day would require an immense amount of scholars studying the Law and talking about its purpose. It would then require enough of the common people to be educated to have people understand this concept.
Otherwise having someone secede from the nation is completely reprehensible from a legal stand point. Honestly, it still is even in modern nations, though not to nearly as much of a degree.
Chance of update tonight?
Mechanically, I just assume that losing subordinates to defection is different then losing land to invaders. The way that the value is written suggests that it covers both, but I think the narrative favors the latter. Either interpretation can be "clean" mechanically.
It should be noted that many of our people view the WY as "basically still People", without an existential crisis about them having a different government.
Just saying.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
- Location
- Hell
Regarding our Western Territories, I remain by the line of doing what is possible. If we can bring them in line, awesome. If not, then oh well, another step to Switzerland.
We do what we can for those that seek us for help. We have seen what happens when we reach out and Halp and it halps us as much as it does them.
We do what we can for those that seek us for help. We have seen what happens when we reach out and Halp and it halps us as much as it does them.
I think it would be less claiming for the gods, since theoretically it is already theirs, and more thanking them for increased mortal administration due to Life of Arete and Personal Stewards of the land to imply that the increased workload is a blessing from above.
- Location
- Illinois
Well, they did before the plague. I suspect a few decades with little to no contact has changed that quite a bit.
I am given to understand that the Law, as was pointed out by our friendly neighborhood Danish Lawyer is probably already very sophisticated, given the amount of stress we put on it with literal millennia of immigration and a reform in the Iron Age.
So, IMO, the Ymaryn is already ran by the Rule of Law.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Uh... wasn't a big part of why the HK freaked out back in the original law days because the King himself considered himself beholden to the law?
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, I think that's the more likely evolution, and of course that IS a risk: Cultural drift over generations. Of course, that risk is already there: As was speculated, the colonies may have already lost Joyous Symphony and picked up Pioneering Spirit instead. That is, their culture as is may already be perfectly adapted of continuing as is, without further drift, without needing access to Sacred Forest or Valleyhome.
Let's say so then: if they were to pick up slavery, yeah, I'd find that a sufficient reason to smack them down.
Yes, but as per Lord's Loyalty and Joyous Symphony that control is based on, well, loyalty and voluntary (as in, not militarily enforced) contribution. And we still have that loyalty in the Core and the eastern vassals.
Well, as I've said, that would be a ground for intervention then.
- Location
- Illinois
Very much no. The Rule of Law is a fairly modern concept, and not something you would see this early in history.
If anything, the Law is the embodiment of the King's will, as well as a form of almost 'advice' from previous kings. It very much would not be seen as a force in and of itself as we see in modern societies.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
uhhh
am i misunderstanding this?
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Ah declaring war on people because their not us. Wonderful morality there. Personally I rather declare war for land myself.
- Location
- Illinois
LL would say that a vassal forsaking his loyalty to his lord demands an intervention. Joyous Symphony would say that a vassal leaving their King goes against the will of the gods, as the King is their avatar in the world, and thus a vassal leaving is harmful to the natural symphony.
By the point in which we would want to intervene, we would have no legitimate reason to do so, and even if we did so, 'correcting' the changes would be a long, laborious process, far more difficult than what we are facing here.
We're talking a half-dozen or so influence subordinate actions to 'fix' it, with a dash of ethnic cleansing if we want to be sure it sticks.
The Law can be taken as a manifestation of the King's will, but it is the King who enforces the law. The King is above the law, from what I understand. Or maybe the King is the Law. Not sure, honestly. I just strongly doubt that the law is supreme at this point in time.
@Academia Nut how does our Law work? Does it run along the lines of Rule of Law?
Last edited: