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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability,-4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)x2
[X] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [React] Restore confidence after the plague (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

Time to rebuild a confederation.
 
Rakuhn said:
Trade is more profitable if we are actually trading. He only has two western potential trade partners: us (initiated by doing the salt gift) or the Harmurri (who are still in chaos from the plague). If he was a normal leader he could avoid to wait. But he is a heroic martial leader, and every phase he waits is a wasted phase.
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What evidence is there that he's heroic martial rather than heroic diplomacy?
 
DakkaMania said:
Ah, I thought the Grand Palace counted separately.

Annex Effect: +1 National Library count, -1 Temp Econ damage for all palaces, +1 EE before Valleyhome loses TC status, +1 Safe Martial, +1 Tech Refund/2 palaces, +1 Tech/turn, palaces grant +1 RA tolerance each
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You are right; saying "and that's it" was poorly phrased.

We don't yet have 2 points of tech refunds (still only at 1), but we do have 1 point of tech income, like you said.
 
Wiadi said:
Source?
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We have disease rolls still and our Colonies are on the verge of seceding. A bad disease roll costs us stability, and losing Colonies costs us stability. We don't know precisely how much, but depending on how much stability we have and exactly how much it costs, bad rolls on those at the same time could cost us a large amount of stability all in one go. Though, it's helped by our stability generation with React and our Heroic King preventing us from crit failing at least some rolls.

PrimalShadow said:
We need to be very careful about how we spend out stats, because people regularly spend freely only to notice on turns like this one that we are stuck because we don't have enough Wealth (or in other cases, Tech, Martial, etc.).


If so, that makes our next GP really, REALLY high priority. Like, I'd consider building it with actual king actions.

Net, it give +0.5 low cent tolerance, -0 upper cent tolerance (-1 by default, but +1 since it is the third GP and thus enables an extra True City), +1 RA tolerance, and +1 TED resistance, with more to come as we expand our Palace.
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NB: if our Palace is counted together with the GPs, we might already have the extra True City.
 
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Candesce said:
It requires lots of Wealth and Martial, both of which we're short on.

Worse, raising Martial takes Wealth.

So, cash crops instead of forestry for PSN is a good start, preferably Poppies because those give a bit of Martial too.
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NB: poppies no longer give martial, that was only for the first time we used the action.
Marlin said:
Why are we planting poppies, I thought we wanted cotton?
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It's cheaper and we're already leading in cotton was the best reason I saw.
 
Marlin said:
Why are we planting poppies, I thought we wanted cotton?
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Cotton cost one more Econ, and since we only have 2 points of Econ refund, an extra point of LTE as well.
George said:
if our Palace is counted together with the GPs, we might already have the extra True City.
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Our gov't description says we get an admin-free True City for every 3 Governor's Palaces, not (just) Palaces, so it should definitely not apply.
 
bluefur87 said:
I mean, what makes you think a heroic martial leader managed to gather the entire nomad horde without executing a waagh on anyone and then chose to settle on a trade route?
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You don't have to conduct diplomacy or trade yourself to make money off of a trade route. You just spot any caravans passing through, demand they hand over tribute to let them pass, or you kill them and loot their wagons. It isn't as profitable as being a middleman, but it is certainly fast, easy, and cheap. Recognizing the value of a trade route is well within the capabilities of your average nomad leader. The hard part is fending off challengers.

Alratan said:
What evidence is there that he's heroic martial rather than heroic diplomacy?
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He is a nomad hero. Nations tend to get heroes in things that they are working on. If a nation is doing a lot of administrative work, it is more likely to get an admin hero. If a nation is doing a lot of war missions, it is more likely to get a martial hero. etc. Considering that we are in the middle of a massive plague, I think it is more likely that the nomads have been raiding each other for food than trading with settled civilization. While its possible that he is a heroic diplomat instead of a heroic general, we shouldn't be betting the survival of our lowland vassals on it.

Of course, it is also possible that he is a multi-hero, but I really hope that we aren't that unfortunate.
 
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George said:
We have disease rolls still and our Colonies are on the verge of seceding. A bad disease roll costs us stability, and losing Colonies costs us stability. We don't know precisely how much, but depending on how much stability we have and exactly how much it costs, bad rolls on those at the same time could cost us a large amount of stability all in one go. Though, it's helped by our stability generation with React and our Heroic King preventing us from crit failing at least some rolls.
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Fair, but the leading vote right now leaves us at 0 Stab before income, so even if we lose the RO+PG React we'd still have to lose 4 Stab all at once to fracture. That seems...beyond improbable, frankly. Especially since that React vote seems pretty locked in.
 
Andres110 said:
Probably to get it to Leading.
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And that would gives us... what exactly? Cotton was supposed to be the safe choice. With poppies being the drug problem. Going for cheap is what gave us the religion phiosophy of "purity", or whatever it's called. That philosophy where the ymaryn want to destroy all things not "pure" in their worldview.
 
Marlin said:
And that would gives us... what exactly? Cotton was supposed to be the safe choice. With poppies being the drug problem. Going for cheap is what gave us the religion phiosophy of "purity", or whatever it's called. That philosophy where the ymaryn want to destroy all things not "pure" in their worldview.
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It gives us +1 Wealth income per turn. I do not agree with the others that it is worth the potential future problems, regardless of whether they're far off or not. They're more focused on pursuing local optima than planning for the future.
 
Wiadi said:
They do still have the cultural opposition to the notion that we've instilled, though, not to mention memory of what happened to Trelli over that issue. The Western Ymaryn were specifically disaffected warriors going out and raiding for land, whereas these breakaways would still have their whole infrastructure intact, complete with aggressively-anti-slavery priests.
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So the priests will be against it for cultural reasons, as the holders of culture, everyone else from the traders to the guilds to the yeomen to the patricians, hell even the urban poor would see the advantages of slavery. The priests will get buried under the power of the other factions.
 
Rakuhn said:
You don't have to conduct diplomacy or trade yourself to make money off of a trade route. You just spot any caravans passing through, demand they hand over tribute to let them pass, or you kill them and loot their wagons. It isn't as profitable as being a middleman, but it is certainly fast, easy, and cheap.


He is a nomad hero. Nations tend to get heroes in things that they are working on. If a nation is doing a lot of administrative work, it is more likely to get an admin hero. If a nation is doing a lot of war missions, it is more likely to get a martial hero. ectc.Considering that we are in the middle of a massive plague, i think it is more likely that the nomads have been raiding each other for food than trading with settled civilization. While its possible that he is a heroic diplomat instead of a heroic general, we shouldn't be betting the survival of our lowland vassals on it.

Of course, it is also possible that he is a multi-hero, but I really hope that we aren't that unfortunate.
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So the person shows every sign of being a diplo hero and not wanting to invade us and your reasoning is 'he's a nomad hero, he must want to kill us'.

Like, do not look at needing to trade with him as an 'or else he'll kill us' sort of thing. Look at the Salt Gift as starting a new, long term positive relationship.

It definitely has advantages, especially if we do it early. And one can even argue that those advantages are important enough that we should do it early. We have no reason to believe, however, that him setting up shop on a trade route next to us is the precursor to a giant waaaagh on us in a couple turns.
 
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Civilizations have lived cultivated opium for thousands of years in the real world. It took until the 19th century for opiate abuse to reach pandemic levels (see the British deliberately cultivating it as an addictive narcotic). The key to dealing with drug abuse as a civilization is the same as dealing with alcohol abuse. Start it at low quantities and low potencies, build a social framework around its responsible use over centuries while gradually increasing its prevalence, and its relative harm (compared to its potential harm) will be minimal. By the time it can be refined into a truly dangerous substance, we should have enough cultural familiarity with it to prevent pandemic levels of abuse, and we should also have the tools to treat its addiction as a mental health problem rather than a criminal one.
 
Wiadi said:
Fair, but the leading vote right now leaves us at 0 Stab before income, so even if we lose the RO+PG React we'd still have to lose 4 Stab all at once to fracture. That seems...beyond improbable, frankly. Especially since that React vote seems pretty locked in.
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Not really? People have repeatedly thrown around the idea that we might lose one stability for each colony we lose. I don't know what your standards for beyond improbable are, though.

It doesn't need to be very likely at all for my argument to be true, only more likely than the nomads sacking more than half of our core before our coming Main Turn.
 
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bluefur87 said:
So the person shows every sign of being a diplo hero and not wanting to invade us and your reasoning is 'he's a nomad hero, he must want to kill us'.

Like, do not look at needing to trade with him as an 'or else he'll kill us' sort of thing. Look at the Salt Gift as starting a new, long term positive relationship.

It definitely has advantages, especially if we do it early. And one can even argue that those advantages are important enough that we should do it early. We have no reason to believe, however, that him setting up shop on a trade route next to us is the precursor to a giant waaaagh on us in a couple turns.
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Every sign of not wanting to invade us? We haven't even known of him for even a single phase. That isn't enough time to judge his intentions. The only thing we know is that he is open to trade, instead of immediately declaring war. That doesn't imply that he is peaceful or isolationist. It just implies that (like almost every other nomad from around the Salt Sea) he can recognize the value of trade and the wealth it can bring.

The salt gift is great. I am heavily pushing for it. It worked on the Storm Wolves martial hero (who then decided to attack the tributeless metal workers instead of us). What I am against is not doing the salt gift, and just trusting in the nomad hero's inherent patience and goodness to not attack us while we aren't providing any benefit to him at all. In a couple of turns he will be dead. He can get something from us for free, or he can take it from our corpse. Most other nomads have not been particularly perturbed about being forced to do the latter.
 
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[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)

[X] [React] Expand Palace (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Expand fleet (Main More Warships)

[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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Carrnage said:
[X] [Enclave] Attempt to reconcile issues (-1 Stability, -4 Mysticism, -6 Culture, ???)

[X] [React] Greet new nomad chief (Main Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Attempt to get the western colonies in line (Main Influence Subordinate - Starts with Western Wall, x2 also goes to Greenshore, x3 goes to Tinshore)
[X] [React] Expand fleet (Main More Warships)

[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
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I note that you are taking us to 8 (base) -8 (salt gift) -3 (influence) -5 (warships) = -8 wealth.
Are you okay with this?
If so, why?
 
George said:
And most likely, he noted your question and decided not to respond. He does get busy, and need to control what information we do and don't get, you know.
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It's not a good thing to assume he decides not to respond. More often than not it's actually just that he misses questions the first go. He's always been willing to answer questions once they've been brought back up to him.
 
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