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Paths of Civilization

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Academia Nut said:
Basically, while it is accelerating social stratification, Life of Arete is also keeping a high churn. Patricians that don't excel get torn apart, and either replenish themselves with ambitious up and comers or disintegrate. This does keep the patricians as a class on top since they naturally absorb the cream of other classes.

Also, while there is some downward pressure, having five or more surviving adult sons almost certainly means you have multiple wives which means you are at the top of the social structure. On the one hand this means that there are more opportunities to place lower order sons, but on the other hand if they are all trained equally well they will compete over the influence networks and fragment them, so not giving them full education in being a patrician is a survival mechanism.
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So offering a few more possibilities of social mobility would turn the Patrician politics into something so full of attrition, that if the family head hasn't excellent stats, his family won't stay on the top?
 
You know I'm kinda curious how many of our Clerks are female since according to Ymarin Metaphysics men are "passionate and active but also fickle and explosive" which aren't exactly qualities you want in a clerk...
 
One way we might be able to push literacy up is via religion. If your religion needs you to be able to read the sacred texts even when not a priest, it becomes a non blockage path to literacy.
 
Lilithium said:
So sheepman actually won even though he didn't win a single battle...
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This is an abomination, not feudalism. Admittedly there's a very great deal of hope, it is possible for privitisation and decentralisation to occur, which would dilute state powers and dramatically increase the liberty, opportunities and representation for the various strata of society. But what we have now is statist system that has potential to evolve away from this red mess and into Somthing more pleasing to the Flock.
 
maximillian said:
We are by no definition of the word even close to fuedalism. Feudalism isn't having nobles or powerful elites, that is the norm for any pre modern system. Feudalism is about the decentralisation and delegation of power, that is its core. Everything else spins around that concept, and you cannot possibly think that the Ymaryn are in anyway decentralised or have a miniscule buecracy.
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bureaucracy is the delegation of power
 
maximillian said:
it is possible for privitisation and decentralisation to occur, which would dilute state powers and dramatically
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Feels revulsion pulsing through every molecule of his body.

Yeah no Lasize Faire BS. No power to the sociopaths.

Sorry if that's not what your getting at, euuurgh.

We're never going to agree on this, lets be honest here, but shivers.
 
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BungieONI said:
I think it'd depend. If it can somehow let us develop a means to educate people entering our system then it'd help. But that's a really long shot for a really long time.
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Elites...
Mmm
You know, establishing mandatory education in gymnasiums (not by enforcement even, just by it becoming prestigious) can homogenize elites to a degree.
But Influence + Theatres are probably better fit for cultural inflluence, with Roads for infrastructural unity.
 
Alex pears said:
I think that we're doing quite well and if it becomes a thing we can force on the women front then I say let em in the games.
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Might be better to set up a seperate games for women. Getting constantly beaten by men who due to biology out muscle them (barring the outliner) until the top percentile consists solely out of men isn't going to healthy for gender roles either.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Elites...
Mmm
You know, establishing mandatory education in gymnasiums (not by enforcement even, just by it becoming prestigious) can homogenize elites to a degree.
But Influence + Theatres are probably better fit for cultural inflluence, with Roads for infrastructural unity.
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Yep.

I really actually want to see the action list now. It's been to loooong.
 
Dutch said:
Might be better to set up a seperate games for women. Getting constantly beaten by men who due to biology out muscle them (barring the outliner) until the top percentile consists solely out of men isn't going to healthy for gender roles either.
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Hopefully we have that option to pick. *crosses fingers*
 
ctulhuslp said:
Still, we need Gymnasiums.
*sigh*
After we consolidate our gains, that is. I do not think Gymnasiums can help with integration.
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Well, common education actually does help with holding empire together, since if all your elite is taught to the same standard in the same culture, it has much less reason too pull it apart. Both British and Chinese did that.
 
Alex pears said:
Such as?

I mean I'm sure there are ones out there, but can you really give one that doesn't eventually devolve into the nobles oppressing the peasants like Russia, France, Germany ect. ect.?

Not all those countries had revolutions, but life was hardly nice.


Well we're doing it this time.
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Iberian feudalism, English feudalism, French feudalism (contrary to popular myth, the peasants where firmly anti revolution, it was the urban population that wanted the revolution not the rural population, which was massacred by the revolutionaries), all of those had a well off(by standards of the time) peasant population.

Non of these systems were perfect, they had horrendous flaws and contradictions, but they had enormous potential as well.
And Av already talked about the subject in detail in my earlier posts.
 
Yeah I'd really like to get a Gymnasium in every potential True City in the next 3 turns if we can manage that.
 
Alex pears said:
Eh?

I mean I know he's been ranting on about Manouralism or something like that for a while for some reason?


Please if he dislikes this then he must hate the Federation.


1 side stepping the question ANSWER IT



Second the definition of feudalism (not fuedalism)
  1. the dominant social system in medieval Europe, in which the nobility held lands from the Crown in exchange for military service, and vassals were in turn tenants of the nobles, while the peasants (villeins or serfs) were obliged to live on their lord's land and give him homage, labour, and a share of the produce, notionally in exchange for military protection.

Nobles own land in exchange from the king and enact the kings laws and do his Bureaucracy. Do you have any idea how much stuff we have from the dark and middle ages is nothing but endless lists of accounts, laws and authorisations.

About 98%!

It's huge.

I personally think neither would work at the moment and both just end up with the world on fire and everyone being asses.

And yeah compared to us now a days they are decentralised.

Really decentralised.

Not so much compared to some ancient civilisations or some parts of America, but still.
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Eh? which question?
 
Despite the fact that our system is about as good as we can hope for for the day and age, there are things we can do to make the system function a little better and give more access to neutral authority for the poor. More or less, that amounts to roads, roads, roads, and the occasional governors palace.

The simple ability to "go see someone else" is a powerful equalizer, and connecting the kingdom together will tend to even out the issues as people spread themselves a little more evenly through the rural areas.

On the other hand, we should certainly feel good that our system is as good as it is. Remember, our people are exceedingly healthy and likely only exceeded in literacy rates by the not!Israelites (if they even exist anymore).
 
@Academia Nut how does the People's views/laws on slavery interact with traders/envoys/Games participants with a full entourage that would presumably include slaves? Are they allowed to bring said slaves with them into the People's lands?

Also, if you have the time and energy, my question list from my analysis post:
Abby Normal said:
-Do we have any new possible slots for Aqueducts? We only had 2 (Blackmouth and stonepen iirc) the last time we saw the action list, but we have more provinces and such now...

-Will the governor's palace in western wall lower our min centralization tolerance and provide a third of a free city tolerance while its still in a subordinate, or does it have to be integrated first? Will having it in Western Wall let us integrate all of Western Wall instead of just 2 provinces, with it as a local administrative hub?

-How poorly did we do in the Games to only get 1 prestige from it?

-How will adding the new province and player actions from our government type work now that we're past 8 provinces? Will we get both at once, at 10 provinces, since it rounds up? Or maybe a player action at 9, and a province action at 11? Or will the rounding work differently, or something else?

-Does the loyalty boost from multiple vassal support policies require us to have multiple slots open, or just 1? (i.e. if we have 3 policies to Vassal Support, and 13/14 subordinates, will we get 1 policy worth of loyalty boosts, or 3?

-To add to that, is the passive influence boost from vassal support dependent on there being an open slot just like the loyalty boost, or does it still apply with all slots filled?

-Does the base threshold value for true cities change ever, or will it be 20 forever? If it does change, is the math (# of City Candidates - 1) * 4, like i speculated?

-Would it be possible for you to give us a list of what mines and quarries we have and where, please? we had several that didn't say what provinces they're in, and things like Hatvalley "reclaiming mines" that didn't say what they were, and i dont know if we actually got the location for the gold mine we found right before Phygriff. If nothing else, what mines are in the Heaven's Hawk territory? Is it just the Salt Mine?

-Would it be possible for you to list "specials", like we usually see in the action list, like "innovation chances for boats boosted due ot new design" or "having a mystic hero boosts study actions", listed on the civ sheet, especially for times like this where we dont see the action list? Among other things it would make it easier to know if Tormulyna's bonus would still apply this turn, without having to ask you like i did earlier

-How many of the 3 provinces in Txolla are integrateable right now?

-When we take an integrate action on, say, Txolla or Western wall, would we get a single province per action, or all integrateable provinces at once?

-What exactly got us the walls for the trading post? Was that from a critical? Or did we get an extra Traders Quest and fulfill it before we actually saw it?

-If failing a quest for a faction makes their next (or all future?) quests more likely to be bad, does succeeding a quest make their next (future) quest(s) better?

-Now that we've completed 5 Megaprojects, a wonder, and are almost done with a 6th megaproject, how do we compare on megaprojects with the Khemetri? Have we finally surpassed them on that too?

-For the grand docks, how far are we from "classical" boat innovations? Like...what "age" are our current boats in, and how many ages away is classical from that?

-Shouldn't it have taken a full turn after completing the priest quest to get a new one?

-How likely is it that the current priest quest's innovation will boost RA tolerance, if we can know that?

-The palace annex limit is out of date, it should be 15 now (2 (Base) + 4 (8 Provinces) + 9 (Landed Subordinates)), or 17 after the 2 free cities come into play.

-is there any difference in "Build Roads" vs "New Trails"?

And a couple minor holdover questions from last time:
-Are we trading case hardened iron tools/weapons, or just "regular" iron?

-Is the Trade dominance bonus for Iron in addition to, or instead of the usual wealth bonus from dominating trade? THat is, if we had 10 trade goods at leading or higher, including iron, would we have +5 wealth total (Iron +1, then 9 "normal" trade goods round down to +4), or +6 (+1 iron, then 10 trade goods for 5, with iron counting for that as well)?
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And my question from last night:
Abby Normal said:
@Academia Nut since they've come up again, can you tell us more about the gymnasiums? Both narratively (what's the actual plan and focus for them for us) and mechanically (are they infrastructure or regular project, what stats do they cost and give?)
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agumentic said:
Well, common education actually does help with holding empire together, since if all your elite is taught to the same standard in the same culture, it has much less reason too pull it apart. Both British and Chinese did that.
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On the other hand indoctrination can back fire in isolated areas so who knows.

Eh, lets build the blasted gymnasiums first.

maximillian said:
Iberian feudalism, English feudalism, French feudalism (contrary to popular myth, the peasants where firmly anti revolution, it was the urban population that wanted the revolution not the rural population, which was massacred by the revolutionaries), all of those had a well off(by standards of the time) peasant population.

Non of these systems were perfect, they had horrendous flaws and contradictions, but they had enormous potential as well.
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Thank you now convince me we can not blunder into those same flaws and contradictions if not make our own? (In all fairness though thanks. I will however respectfully disagree save for the English Feudalism which was ok, but that was mostly due to the countries small size)

maximillian said:
Eh? which question?
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The one you just answered, I think one of us is either a head of the other or behind the other cause you responded to a post I made, but I thought you were responding to a different one I had made.

maximillian said:
And Av already talked about the subject in detail in my earlier posts.
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I haven't read the entire thread nor have I memorised it nor do I know where everything is.
 
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Honestly having an extremely competitive and cut throat noble class is actually a fairly good thing as it does ensure that only the competent are able to maintain their power which is honestly the closest we're going to get to a true meritocracy for a very long time.
 
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