Paths of Civilization

Kiba · Jul 14, 2017

Abby Normal said:
But...the khemtri don't even usually trade at Trelli? I think AN confirmed during the trade side update discussion that the representative that went to our traders was a rare thing, who came because the people who usually gave tribute or trade with the khemtri had less tin, because that second group got a lot of theirs from the Trelli. But, if the Trelli aren't the source of the slaves, then if they stop trading, the slavers would just start trading with the khemtri directly...and that's assuming they don't already, or that somehow the Trelli are the only source of slaves for the whole Mediterranean, which seems...unlikely?

Trelli isn't certainly the source of slave. Once we moved into Trelli, we can start dictating terms, especially if we are dominant in several categories.

This hurt us of course, but if we are rich enough, we might be able to weather the storm.

Umi-san · Jul 14, 2017

agumentic said:
Montreux treaty

The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is a 1936 agreement that gives Turkey control over the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanellesand regulates the transit of naval warships. The Convention gives Turkey full control over the Straits and guarantees the free passage of civilian vessels in peacetime. It restricts the passage of naval ships not belonging to Black Sea states. The terms of the convention have been the source of controversy over the years, most notably concerning the Soviet Union's military access to the Mediterranean Sea.

veekie · Jul 14, 2017

Oh and an analysis post:
Diplomacy 10 [+2] -> 11 [+2]
-Main Trails +1

Normal

Economy 7 [-2] -> 5 [-2]
-Main Alchemy -1
-Main Trails -1

Normal.

Econ Expansion 10 [+2] -> 12 [+2]
-Main Alchemy +1
-Main Trails +1

Normal

Martial 8 (+1) {9} -> 10 {12}
-Delayed War Mission payout +1
-Critical War Mission payout +1

Some ass whupping delivered

Wealth 8 [+2-1] -> 13 [+2-1]
-Main Alchemy -1
-Sapphires +2
-Swamp Folk Tribute +2
-Thunder Horse Tribute +2

War is kind of profitable.
Looks like we lost the next turn income from the collapse though.

Centralization 4 -> 3
-Sapphires -2
-Main Trails +1

Yellow values are now 2, 4 and 5(?)
Red values are now 1 and 6(?)
Roads are frigging awesome. More.

Religious Authority 3 -> 4
-Stallion Temple +1

So it turns out sending a lot of our priests over made the Dragon Temple Ymaryn enough that they give us half their Religious Authority. Cool.

Art 9 -> 6
-Sapphires -3

Normal

Mysticism 14 (+2) [+1] -> 14 (+1) [+1]
-Main Alchemy -2
-Library cashouts +2

Normal

Prestige 42 -> 46
-Spanked TH +2
-Spanked SF +2

Trade Status

Resource	Status	Rivals
Luxuries
Amber	Known only
Fine Pottery	Minor
Fine Dye	Dominating	Trelli
Fine Textiles	None	Swamp Folk, Trelli
Furs	Known only
Gems	Significant	Trelli, Tin Tribes, Khem (in)
Glass	Dominant
Gold	Significant + Lesser trading (in)	Metal Workers, Khem->Trelli
Incense	None	Khem->Trelli
Mercury	Dominating	None
Silver	Leading (in, needing)	MW, Trelli
Salt	Dominating	Trelli
Spices	None	(SI+Khem)->Trelli
Wine	Dominating	Trelli
Strategic
Copper	Leading	Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW, Trelli
Bronze	Minor	Trelli
Slaves	Forbidden	MW (in), Trelli, TT
Tin	Minor + Trading	MW (in), TH (in), HK (in), Tin Tribes, Trelli->Khem
Iron	Non-traded dominant	None
Cultural
Pilgrimage	Leading	Thunder Speakers

Trade changes:
-Gems - None -> Significant. Two more steps to Dominance. Or a Trelli Trade Post. Tin Tribes appear on the map.
-Slaves - Tin tribes appear on the slave market. Both buy and sell.
-Tin - Tin tribes appear, apparently they're one of the regional suppliers, though the Trelli have their trade by the balls and sending it to Khemtri.
-Pilgrimage - @Academia Nut wouldn't this rise from the increased Religious Authority from the Dragon temple?
Techs:

Materials
Well Dressed Stone
Ash glazed pottery
Bronze
Early iron bloomeries
Blown glass
Mortar

]
Mortar, one of the most enormous leaps ahead in construction we can make. The ability to join stone and brick by other than weight allows vastly higher constructions and opens the way to Concrete.

It also revolutionizes the Dam and Aqueducts, as you can now build elevated aqueducts(easier to keep clean, reduces labor needed to raise water in elevation by never dropping it).

Word of AN says it'd make the Palace better, and over 3 generations or so it'd refactor our project costs.

Theory
Shield wall

We've moved from 'People fight better when they are close together' to 'you can lock your shields together to provide more defense than any individual could.

This innovation is likely quite quickly adopted given how effective it is against archers...well not Ymaryn archers due to iron arrows from compound bows, but it shifts the balance towards infantry again. A shield wall is also the basic feature to stall cavalry charges, as a horse will refuse to charge into what it's eyes say is a solid wall, though you need spears added to make it really good.

Academia Nut said:
Chakur had a curious relationship between himself and the southerners. While some among the tribes under his command felt more affinity for them, he counted himself among those who still found a separation between himself and them. His grandfather had been Phygrif the Conqueror, his father the adult son of that titan of the past.

And we see that Phygrief's grandson is not exactly assimilated yet. Time will help. Roads too. Roads.
...Roads...

Chakur had lived a long and mostly peaceful life, a curious position that he was still not sure about.

Martial Glory erosion in Heaven's Hawks commencing.

On the one hand the southerners had little interest in war as a people, but on the other hand when they did fight it was with a ferocity and intensity that Chakur and the Hawks had long ago agreed they were glad was on their side. Some of the more philosophical warriors had come to the conclusion that the southerners had no capacity for being in-between.

Love of Wisdom is being picked up by the Hawks.

Either you were their friend, who they would share their food and drink with, or you were an enemy to be killed, burned, the ashes ground to flour, and the flour scattered to the winds. There was no in-between and they could switch between the two states with alarming speed, but the latter state was frankly rather exhausting. It simultaneously made going over to your annoying neighbours and shanking the bastard and introducing his cute daughter to your tribe the sort of thing that would rapidly spiral out of control and thus couldn't be done, but also ensured that you wanted to stay on their good side.

Ymaryn the yan-yan.

I wonder if we might actually do that eventually. Mass cremation is one of the more effective ways to clean up battlefields, if you could afford the cost in fuel, and well...afterwards the ash made for decent fertilizer if you ground it up and spread it over a large area.

In any case, Chakur had spent the past few generations raising up the new warriors of the tribe, introducing the best of them to contacts in the south so that they could go and get into a real fight.

And here the hotheads are being sent over to the Red Banner so they can go get a good fight before going home. It's one way to work off aggression.

But ONLY the best of the best.

Somewhere along the way he had realized that he could make extensive use of masses of young warriors in a way that could blood them while also still engaging in the terrifyingly intense way of war of the southerners. By dividing his forces up, he could use the young and inexperienced warriors as a screen that could move fast and harass an enemy while the heavy spearmen and archers moved into position, and from there he had realized that he didn't need to send all of his heavier assets in at once either.

So basically screening light infantry to probe(guided by Blackbirds and Carrion Eaters to maintain direction and morale) and exhaust the enemy before they run away while the enemy is still pinned down to fight, then the archers are in position to rain death and charging the archers runs into the scalemailed shieldwall.

With chariots and horse riders for scouting and flanking, he could keep a reserve who would not be tired to reinforce any section of the battle line that looked weak, or exploit weakness in the enemy. While initially it had only been part of training, but the idea had caught on quickly and many had come to him for advise and teaching.

And then the innovation of the idea of a RESERVE force, that maybe throwing your whole force at once is not so smart, but if you held some back you'd have fresh elites who can pound enemy weaknesses and break it.

Also noting that horse riders are increasing.

And now he was hearing that it had caught on like a grassland fire, and the king was being paid very well to make it stop. Chakur had received numerous accolades and a reminder of just how crazy the southerners were, and idly wondered if it had perhaps been the best for the tribes that he had worked this out.

This incidentally does work on Nomads quite well, so he's right to be worried.
Funny how he framed taking tribute though.

Meanwhile, in the south, the king was simultaneously elated at the fact that they would probably have peace for at least the next generation, and that the Swamp Folk and Thunder Horse had offered considerable tribute to get the Red Banner to stop hitting them, but horrified by the latest news out of Hatvalley. The trade through the Trelli was so good and the support from the center so enthusiastic that the new mine had gone up too quickly, the sparse veins of sapphires dug for too quickly and too deeply and a collapse had occurred, killing hundreds - both in the mine and in the subsequent partial landslide triggered.

And here the oldest lesson, if you halfass the process you'd see landslides. It's been a while since we had a land working fail, perhaps people are getting too cocky, but some sources of this is using improperly seasoned timbers for supports, and aggressive mining causing destabilization of rock without waiting for the stone to settle out the new weight.

This can lead to mining technique improvement too. Cross applying arches for instance. Or using Mortar to shore up supports.

Locally there was huge outrage and the state was stepping in of course, but there was a question of... how much needed to be known? The law and the king would deal with the responsible individuals, the mess would be sorted out, and who else needed to know? Mining was dangerous, everyone knew that...

But... but, while the situation was something that could just be moved on from, something nagged at the king. Was there a lesson here? Surely he didn't need to get people mad over the fact that the king and nobles had let greed blind them and pursued wealth too quickly, causing others to die as a result? Surely this was just one of those bad things that happened, and the report on it could drift into obscurity? What good could be learned by admitting to a mistake like this? It would just upset people...

Would a better king be beset by these doubts? What choice would a better king make?

Do Right or Do Convenient?

Our past Heroic kings also put a lot of stress on the current less superhuman king.

At least not all digging related issues were all bad. The shamans that had flocked to the Dragon Graveyard had discovered that the project was considerably more difficult than initially expected, but they had discovered how various kinds of stone could be dissolved by various reagents and then reconstituted, sometimes radically altered from their original form. While some argued that this showed how bones and stranger things might become buried in solid stone, many felt that this raised further questions as the conditions under which the stone would dissolve indicated extremely strange things about what the gods must have been up to.

We've discovered how you could dissolve stone, but it requires either great heat or pressure in the process, which is rather alarming to consider happening. First step to metamorphic rock theory.

The trick with burying something made by the People in solid stone and then breaking it out was great for shocking foreigners though!

Top keks. "We were always here!"

The OOP-Art conspiracists are born as we bury Bwylls in stone.

Build Docks - With large numbers of ships being built, a new place to store them all, the goods they bring in, and a place to build them might be a good idea
*S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo, increased trade power
*M: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo, increased potential for new innovations, increased trade power

@Academia Nut
Question, can we build Docks in Sacred Forest since it has a Canal? Would it boost the Trade power of pilgrimage?

Build Wall - The practice of building city walls has reached new heights with access to superior tools making the cutting of stone simpler (60% light walls, 30% significant walls, 10% massive walls)
*S: -1 Econ, +5% light walls
*M: -2 Econ, +5% significant walls
*2M: -4 Econ, +5% massive walls

Build Watchtowers - Stone and brick towers for warriors to sit in and scan the horizon for trouble, these towers can help stave off raids and improve response against attacks. (40% coverage)
*S: -1 Econ, +5% coverage
*M: -1 Econ, +10% coverage

These would probably become MUCH cheaper, faster or better output once we figure out the uses of Mortar, I think?

Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort. With charcoal now in higher demand, can also provide a sustainable supply (7/8 currently locked up)
* S: -1 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled, potential discoveries
* M: -2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory, improved odds of success

Small margin to spare now.
Should build up more so we can Dock later though.

New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful. 0/3 to next Centralization cap increase
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

And here we have the magic of Trails raising the cap being revealed.
I wonder if Mains count as 1 or 2, and if Double Mains count as 4, then we can get the cap raise with enough capacity to build enough to reach 3 again immediately?

Probably caps out at a formula based on province number.

Study Alchemy - Materials can be made to transform their form through special treatment. What wonders can be discovered in this process?
*S: -1 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, potential new discoveries
*M: -2 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, -1 Econ, increased chance of new discoveries

Concrete is next!

Study Metal - Iron and copper, gold and silver, what other secrets are hidden in metal and stone?
* S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights

Steel is next!

[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Northern Nomads, Into the Wild (Eastern Sea), Into the Wild (Tin Tribes), Into the Wild

We know the Tin Tribes exist, but not where. Greenshore would probably start looking soon.

[] War Mission
-Target Options: Northern Nomads, Highlanders (Treachery), Thunder Speakers (Treachery)

That Treachery does not sound good.

Provinces for Projects: Valleyhome, Redshore, Stonepen, Sacred Forest, Northshore, Blackriver, Redhills, Southshore, Hatriver, Ironshore

New province, I think that's the one donated by Hathatyn Colony?
@Academia Nut
Do they have a Holy Site?

Abby Normal · Jul 14, 2017

veekie said:
Martial 8 (+1) {9} -> 10 {12}
-Delayed War Mission payout +1
-Critical War Mission payout +1

I think we got a point from the Heaven's Hawk sending martial again, cause there's a line in the update about the nomad dude sending warriors to the south.

veekie said:
New province, I think that's the one donated by Hathatyn Colony?
@Academia Nut
Do they have a Holy Site?

I think you meant the Western Wall, not Hatvalley? And yeah, it showed up after they donated the province, though it took a bit for AN to update the relevant post with it.

pbluekan · Jul 14, 2017

veekie said:
We know the Tin Tribes exist, but not where. Greenshore would probably start looking soon.

We know. AN said they're between the metal workers and Trelli.

pblur · Jul 14, 2017

Susano said:
In theory. In reality, there just isn't enough wealth there. Why do you think everyone ignored Siberia until Russia?

Phygrif should never have been elected King. He IS a black mark on our history.

And that was still wrong. America stealing the Natives' land was a bad thing. Why would we want to replicate that?

----

There is no "necessity". Of course conquering Trelli would be better for us, but that goes for just about any conquest. You could also say "We need to conquer the HK to better our access to our Lowland vassals" or "we need to conquer the Swampfolk because they have all the good soil in the Lowland". It's the exactly same. There is no necessity here, only greed and jealousy for something the Trelli own. Justice means letting them have it.

What you want is flat out imperialist conquest. Don't try to couch it in terms of "necessity". After all, we obviously can exist with Trell occupying the strait; we currently do! So this isn't an existential threat to us. Open straits is just something we want, and your attitude is basically "I want it, so I'll take it". That is no different than going on a conquering spree in the Lowlands, so once again, don't tr to present it as a "necessity".

Also, I'd rather we not develop a Manifest Destiny complex. If we can expand, fine. But we neither have an inherent right to expand, nor a duty to expand. "Manifest Destiny" bullshit is always inherently imperialist and violent. It wasn't a good thing when the USA did it (see: Native tribes), it wouldn't be a good thing if we did it.

Freedom of navigation is a modern concept and not necessarily applicable to territorial waters anyway. Frankly, we have no inherent right to pass into the Med. It is inconvenient we can't, but c'est la vie.

No, we're not. Not if we actually want to be a good civilization, instead of just yet another power and war mongerer. This relies on us having standards. Ethical standards. That IS what being good means! Why do you think people turn to evil? Because being evil gets you stuff! You rob your neighbour, you get his stuff! Being good does mean constraining oneself now and then, yes. Being good means accepting a disadvantage for the sake of being good. Otherwise, you can't claim to be good. And if we're just yet another power mongering culture, what's even the point?

Oh right. Here comes the usual "Hard men making hard decisions" bullshit.

Your entire argument rests on "But... but... muh RL history!". But that's a descriptive statement, not a normative one. It's a statement of "This is how it has been done in reality". Okay, it has. But you can't derive a normative statement from a descriptive statement. That's the naturalist fallacy - you can't derive ought from is. Just because it maybe has always been done doesn't mean it's good or even only acceptable. Slavery has been an integral part of the vast majority of human existence on Earth, yet that doesn't mean it's a good or acceptable thing.

You speak of winning and losing, but what even is the point of winning if we have gazed so long into the abyss that the abyss is gazing into us? We do have an obligation to our people, of course, yes, and an obligation to our people first and foremost. But you seem to be forgetting that we have reached everything we have WITH Trelli in control of the Bosporus and WITH them denying us passage through it. Once again, having the Bosporus would be nice, but it isn't necessary. Conquering Trelli just because it sits on the Bosporus is no different than conquering a country for its natural resources or trying to get slaves. Both is imperialist conquest to get something that would be convenient. It makes no difference if that something is resources or sea access. It's the same!

The well-being of our people is secured. We don't need the Bosporus for that. Other things threaten that well-being far more, see all the administrative and taxation troubles we have. It is far more important to carefully keep and maintain our excellent society than to go out and conquer, something that most certainly would ruin that society - and I'm not even speaking about moral values here, I'm speaking about its social fabric (warrior caste becomes more important), additional administrative strains, resources to be spent on such conquests...

You don't have the well-being of the Ymarrin in mind. What you have in mind is empire building. What you have in mind is that we HAVE to become a global world power. Well, no we don't. As long as we can in fact secure the well-being of our people I frankly don't care if we'll end up as a world power or not. Thinking that we have to is hubris, and thinking that not being a world power is "losing" is a Trump attitude.

I can tell you one thing: I will not only vote against any military landgrabs. I will vote to actively sabotage them if necessary!

Seeking Good above all else will lead to more suffering and chaos than Law. If followed exculsively, it would destroy our civilization. Fortunately the delusional part of the neutral good faction is a noisy minority of the thread.

Susano said:
Why do you treat this as if it is somehow worse than starting imperialist wars of conquest in the first place?

Because the imperialist wars of conquest are wrong things happening in fiction. You sabotaging a quest because you don't like majority decisions is a wrong thing in REAL LIFE. Real life wrongs are worse than fictional wrongs.

Umi-san · Jul 14, 2017

pblur said:
the delusional neutral good faction

harsh. good is a beneficial morality to be pursued second only to survival

Killer_Whale · Jul 14, 2017

*sees new alert, gets excited for the update, it's just a like on an old post you made,

*

Raichu1972 · Jul 14, 2017

pblur said:
Seeking Good above all else will lead to more suffering and chaos than Law. If followed exculsively, it would destroy our civilization. Fortunately the delusional neutral good faction is a noisy minority of the thread.
Because the imperialist wars of conquest are wrong things happening in fiction. You sabotaging a quest because you don't like majority decisions is a wrong thing in REAL LIFE. Real life wrongs are worse than fictional wrongs.

I'm not sure why wanting to be good is considered to be delusional.

Our Laws, for example, are generally based on what we consider to be Good or Bad.

Our Laws forbid slavery because we consider such to be Bad, and our Laws encourage Justice, because we consider such to be Good.

pblur · Jul 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
harsh. good is a beneficial morality to be pursued second only to survival

I was trying to distinguish the delusional neutral good from the realistic. Guess it might have looked like I was smearing ALL NG with that brush.

If you support good above everything but survival, and keep reasonable expectations for illiterate bronze age society, I don't think it's delusional.

But morals above survival IS delusional IMO.

Susano · Jul 14, 2017

pblur said:
Seeking Good above all else will lead to more suffering and chaos than Law.

This is Paths of Civilization, not DnD.

You sabotaging a quest because you don't like majority decisions is a wrong thing in REAL LIFE.

How so? It is no different than, say, maximillian bleating about feudalism, err sorry, fuedalism. It's just a play style.

VoidZero · Jul 14, 2017

"Good" to an extent is a concept that entices people to ~~give up~~ sacrifice a bit for the benefit of the whole. While "bad" is to discourage pursuing what is good for the individual at the cost of the whole.

So contract maybe?

Concho117 · Jul 14, 2017

Oh! If we're going to be plotting the downfall of nations for our own benefit I vote that we do it right and form a proper Bond-esque evil organization.

Anyone got some good logos and acronyms?

What about mission statements?

I think we should take inspiration from the NRO!

veekie · Jul 14, 2017

Kiba said:
So how would Khemetri's slave supply dry up?

Also, I hope Trelli pays us to protect their asses from raiders with a side note of abandoning the slave trade OR ELSE.

Trelli are the dominant slave trade source.
Remove them and the regional supply goes weird

Abby Normal said:
I think we got a point from the Heaven's Hawk sending martial again, cause there's a line in the update about the nomad dude sending warriors to the south.

Good catch

Abby Normal said:
I think you meant the Western Wall, not Hatvalley? And yeah, it showed up after they donated the province, though it took a bit for AN to update the relevant post with it.

Oops

pbluekan said:
We know. AN said they're between the metal workers and Trelli.

But not the exact where because we hadn't been there

Umi-san · Jul 14, 2017

Killer_Whale said:
*sees new alert, gets excited for the update, it's just a like on an old post you made, *

u actually kept that alert option on?

pblur said:
illiterate bronze age society,

eh... illiterate iron age society let's be real. We have iron, currency, philosophy, mortar, and are near to having a palace, census, and updated legal system that can accommodate changing market values.

Also, it isn't a matter of keeping reasonable expectations for any random society, but rather the existing one that we currently possess. Does conquering another nation that is a) justifiably exploiting the benefits offered by their position to b) deny us the opportunity to explore the wider world and acquire goods at a fairer price, the conquering of which will c) result in an end to slavery and the growth in our power match our nation's values as represented by the relevant social values of CA, Symphony, Greater Justice, and Divine Stewards?

Concho117 said:
esk

esque

Killer_Whale · Jul 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
u actually kept that alert option on?

Until this quest, I mostly lurked.

pblur · Jul 14, 2017

Susano said:
This is Paths of Civilization, not DnD.

How so? It is no different than, say, maximillian bleating about feudalism, err sorry, fuedalism. It's just a play style.

Alignments are a model for real life. Don't actually give a fuck if you like them or not. Sorry.

I'm COMPLETELY fine with you advocating and voting against imperialism. I'm not fine with you attempting to drop Martial in the middle of a war because you don't support the war.

Susano · Jul 14, 2017

pblur said:
Alignments are a model for real life. Don't actually give a fuck if you like them or not. Sorry.

I'm COMPLETELY fine with you advocating and voting against imperialism. I'm not fine with you attempting to drop Martial in the middle of a war because you don't support the war.

Yeah well. Guess who also doesn't give fucks?

Umi-san · Jul 14, 2017

pblur said:
Alignments are a model for real life. Don't actually give a fuck if you like them or not. Sorry.

I mean, they're a completely flawed model but I agree that saying they don't fit here is a flawed conclusion considering that we're literally playing a magic realism quest with distinct social, spiritual, and honour values set in a not!Reality where iron was invented 2k early.

pblur · Jul 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
u actually kept that alert option on?

Eh, it seriously makes me feel less depressed sometimes, so I leave it on. Brain = Weird.

Citino · Jul 14, 2017

Susano said:
This is Paths of Civilization, not DnD.

As a civ, pursuing good will likely lead to more death in the future.

For example, let's say in the next few turns, the Trelli decide to join with us due to economic/military troubles on their part. In a few turns after that, they even become willing to give up the slave trade because they converted to our Crow religion.

Problem is, it turns out that if we do cut off the slave trade, multiple major nations will outright crumble as they lose their workforce, and even more will crumble as those nations collapse.

The 'good' option, at first, seems to be to just outlaw the slave trade. Others will be harmed, but it is the right thing to do, and those nations were built on the backs of their slaves anyways. But even ignoring the hundreds of thousands who will suffer because of that decision, it can also harm us as well. As those nations collapse, we might see an upsurge in raiders. Greenshore is sacked by a marauding band from the collapsed tin tribes, Trelli is beset by pirates, and so forth.

All that death and destruction, caused by pursuing 'good'.

Nations cannot base their agenda's on morality, they have to base it on a combination of their own self-interest and the desire for stability of the world. Morality can affect these decisions, but they can never be the basis on which the decisions are made.

pblur · Jul 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
I mean, they're a completely flawed model but I agree that saying they don't fit here is a flawed conclusion considering that we're literally playing a magic realism quest with distinct social, spiritual, and honour values set in a not!Reality where iron was invented 2k early.

Sure. One of my favorite sayings: "All models are wrong. Some models are useful." Very Engineering.

Umi-san · Jul 14, 2017

I don't agree that nations will collapse from the slave trade in our area ceasing. Slaves are a renewable resource and while a disruption in inflow will be troublesome it's not like slaves will disappear within two turns, which is more than enough time to find new sources or make adjustments.

BungieONI · Jul 14, 2017

*rubs forehead*

I'm reaaaaaaaly wanting that update to drop now so we can talk about other things. Kinda doubt it will though.

Raichu1972 · Jul 14, 2017

Citino said:
As a civ, pursuing good will likely lead to more death in the future.

For example, let's say in the next few turns, the Trelli decide to join with us due to economic/military troubles on their part. In a few turns after that, they even become willing to give up the slave trade because they converted to our Crow religion.

Problem is, it turns out that if we do cut off the slave trade, multiple major nations will outright crumble as they lose their workforce, and even more will crumble as those nations collapse.

The 'good' option, at first, seems to be to just outlaw the slave trade. Others will be harmed, but it is the right thing to do, and those nations were built on the backs of their slaves anyways. But even ignoring the hundreds of thousands who will suffer because of that decision, it can also harm us as well. As those nations collapse, we might see an upsurge in raiders. Greenshore is sacked by a marauding band from the collapsed tin tribes, Trelli is beset by pirates, and so forth.

All that death and destruction, caused by pursuing 'good'.

Nations cannot base their agenda's on morality, they have to base it on a combination of their own self-interest and the desire for stability of the world. Morality can affect these decisions, but they can never be the basis on which the decisions are made.

Okay, so let's do a hypothetical here.

Let's say the conquerors in the thread have their way we go beat up and vassalize the Trelli.

They still participate in the slave trade, and they still follow their own religion, whatever that may be.

In a midturn decision, we are given the option to ban the slave trade in Trelli, but we end up losing passive wealth income because other nations are unhappy with this decision and refuse to trade with the Trelli, and ultimately us, or have no other trade goods to offer than slaves.

Do you think we should allow the Trelli to continue their slave trading for a passive increase in wealth, or do you think we should stop said slave trade and lose some passive wealth while angering other nations?

Paths of Civilization

Procrastinating.

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Somethin's Fucky ...

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Going really fast!

Procrastinating.

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

Seven gremlins in a trench coat