- Location
- Illinois
It was meant to be an example, one others brought up. The idea is still the same, pursuing what is 'good' or 'right' can cause much greater suffering than what is necessary.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
If we really want to figure out the most efficient government model than we just need to look back at World War 1. Since a big enough war will stress the government structure past the usual workload, and we only need to measure the number of active fighters and gross production. Getting soldiers tests the control government over its population and production tests the government's ability to source material and setup new production centers.
WW 2 would have been a good sample but nukes ruined the test environment.
My belief is that efficient contributes to "good" but as always "good" is not an objective concept.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I'd stop the slave trade. No questions. I prefer the good choice when I'm not sacrificing critical resources for it.
- Location
- Hell
...
I thought you were a kitty, but you're barking up the wrong tree. You see,
I'm already insured.
>Equalizing both our tradesGod damn cut throat competition!
We should outlaw insurance companies.
All sells person shall be staffed by cute mascots.
>Trying to claim different now
Nice try...
I always remember~<3
Yeah! Or like China did with Great Britain!
...wait.
Yeah, I'm the only allowed to on this thread
Close enough(；⌣̀_⌣́)
- Location
- Illinois
It all depends on the situation. What are our stats like, how will the Trelli feel about it, how militarized are the slave holding states, what is our stability like, what advantages do we have in this situation, etc...
If it won't kill us, I'd stop the slave trade without hesitation, but the situation is what matters, which is what I was trying to say with my example. After all, if we chose to stop the slave trade when doing so would bring the Khemtri or some other major power to our door, following the 'good' option becomes a bad idea, even if it is one we prefer. States literally cannot act just on the basis of what they think is good or bad, they have to act under the influence of the world around them.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
As far as examples go, it is a poor one. Even the temporary dissolution of countries into bandit states is a lesser evil in comparison to the continued kidnapping, dehumanization, sale, and abuse of innocents.
However, obviously:
It is unlikely that slavery will end as a result of making Trelli no longer a center for trade.
It is unlikely that nations will end as a result of making Trelli no longer a center for trade.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
- Location
- United States
Is Wealth not critical?
We use wealth to provide for a variety of resources that help make our people prosperous.
Are the trade goods not critical?
If there was a polity that traded a ton of gold and silver, both which are needed for our currency, and only wanted slaves in return, would them no longer giving us gold and silver not hurt our currency and overall threaten Ymaryn dominance and prosperity?
I suppose the better question to ask is, at what point do you believe it is critical enough that you are willing to abandon your morals and principles?
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I don't know what you are talking about. I know no other kitty in the business.
- Location
- Illinois
Ok, poor example, but the idea is still there. Taking an action that not only damages others but also damages or destroys ourselves for the sake of 'good' is not something a civ can do.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Humans are greedy and power mongering. They should never have power over humans.
Except that collection of humans called the state, we should give them absolute power and remove any means of resistance or counterbalance to them.
After all they're saints according to themselves, and they couldn't possibly have anything but our best interest at heart.............
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Can we talk about trade posts again? That was a fun little debate.
Or have you guys noticed how much goddamn land we "own" now? It's ridiculous. Like that whole stripe all the way to Xoh wetween those two rivers. It's pretty much like half the lowlands.
Or have you guys noticed how much goddamn land we "own" now? It's ridiculous. Like that whole stripe all the way to Xoh wetween those two rivers. It's pretty much like half the lowlands.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
If it seriously threatens our survival or our power curve (which is a combination of long term survival, and long term population which are both top priorities.)
Technically I might put off ending the slave trade if we were in a bad enough crisis. Negative Weatlth in a famine or something.
Ancient Ymaryn Practices: Can't reach us!
The perk is we're really too far away to be afflicted by the fallout beyond the drop in silver/gold supply.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think this is what we call a technicality, Veekie. We know they are on the river between Metal Workers and Trelli. We might as well know exactly where they are.
- Location
- Hell
So good it made you laugh twice
Feelsgood.jpg
I tried to draw attention to it but everyone ignored me ._.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
The poor half.
...until a few hundred years of black soil turns it into a breadbasket
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
It's because we are fallible that we wanted to put our trust in things greater then us; Gods, Emperors, Kings, States, Idols.
But contracts are eternal.
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- Location
- Illinois
What is the saying, 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'?
Central governments work so long as the power is never fully concentrated. Separation of powers is one of those things that you really have to admire the American founding fathers for.
Even if it was in large part due to paranoia about the role of central government getting too powerful.
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- Location
- United States
Okay, so if lets say the Trelli tell us that we cannot pass their city, you will be against going out and conquering them because they have no way of conquering us and our population is still steadily growing in our many, many holdings?
So you would agree that aggressively conquering and subjugating a city for what is by all accounts currently an inconvenience is something that is not Good and something that we shouldn't pursue?
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
PLEEEASE BLAM HIM!!!!
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
And yet, invading Trelli and ending slave trade at it will neither destroy us nor significantly damage us in a way that isn't, essentially, a benefit.
Khemetri is too far to attack us, as they have no need to develop better boats. Trying will result in overhauling their sociopolitical model and diverting actions toward naval power. Needless to say, wooden boats are hard for a desert to field in any great numbers, so such an effort is essentially futile.
The Tin Tribes are likely too small to impact Greenriver (the height of our heartland or more away) and being attacked by them essentially provides us with an opportunity to subjugate them.
The Metal Workers likely still acquire their slaves through raiding nearby polities and internal production.
The Saffron Isles are likely the only people who could possibly damage us and they have other goods than slaves to offer and other goods than slaves to buy.
Invading Trelli for the purpose of ending slavery is both right and feasible; both moral and pragmatic.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Black soil and forest rotation. Good shit right there.The poor half.
...until a few hundred years of black soil turns it into a breadbasket
I do wonder, if we turned them into a colony and they started expanding forest in the lowlands, what that would do to the local environment. Undoubtedly, our own forest management has prevented more widespread desiccation, locally and likely in the lowlands as well, but if a large portion of the lowlands had the same? That's a huge land area.
That wouldn't be a survival issue. Hell, it wouldn't be a huge issue at all. We have other trade partners and we mostly trade luxuries. It would definitely destabilize us a bit. Probably two points worth. But not much more.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ahem.It's because we are fallible that we wanted to put our trust in things greater then us; Gods, Emperors, Kings, States, Idols.
But contracts are eternal.
There. All better.
Actually I think we have word of AN that our vassal has a claim on all that land but has not expanded to cover it, they are still approximately the size they were on the main map. I can go looking if you want?
E: Unless that "claim" is what you meant by "own" and you meant that we still technically move in.
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pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Just to be clear, good is not my primary concern. It's secondary.
And Trelli, by nature of position and their policy, are going to impact our power curve severely by limiting trade and exploration. Even AN said that ideally we'd conquer them and put our capital there.
Now, conquering them is not the only favorable solution here. I'm perfectly content if we just bully a reasonable transit deal out of them. If we manage that we can probably wait and diploannex them. (Though that would mean leaving the center of the slave trade running for a long time, which is very unpleasant.)
One thing you've got to admit: we at least pick bad guys to want to beat up. Child burners, slave traders, madly aggressive orcs...