I don't agree that nations will collapse from the slave trade in our area ceasing. Slaves are a renewable resource and while a disruption in inflow will be troublesome it's not like slaves will disappear within two turns, which is more than enough time to find new sources or make adjustments.
It was meant to be an example, one others brought up. The idea is still the same, pursuing what is 'good' or 'right' can cause much greater suffering than what is necessary.
 
As a civ, pursuing good will likely lead to more death in the future.
For example, let's say in the next few turns, the Trelli decide to join with us due to economic/military troubles on their part. In a few turns after that, they even become willing to give up the slave trade because they converted to our Crow religion.
Problem is, it turns out that if we do cut off the slave trade, multiple major nations will outright crumble as they lose their workforce, and even more will crumble as those nations collapse.
The 'good' option, at first, seems to be to just outlaw the slave trade. Others will be harmed, but it is the right thing to do, and those nations were built on the backs of their slaves anyways. But even ignoring the hundreds of thousands who will suffer because of that decision, it can also harm us as well. As those nations collapse, we might see an upsurge in raiders. Greenshore is sacked by a marauding band from the collapsed tin tribes, Trelli is beset by pirates, and so forth.
All that death and destruction, caused by pursuing 'good'.
Nations cannot base their agenda's on morality, they have to base it on a combination of their own self-interest and the desire for stability of the world. Morality can affect these decisions, but they can never be the basis on which the decisions are made.

If we really want to figure out the most efficient government model than we just need to look back at World War 1. Since a big enough war will stress the government structure past the usual workload, and we only need to measure the number of active fighters and gross production. Getting soldiers tests the control government over its population and production tests the government's ability to source material and setup new production centers.

WW 2 would have been a good sample but nukes ruined the test environment.

My belief is that efficient contributes to "good" but as always "good" is not an objective concept.
 
Okay, so let's do a hypothetical here.

Let's say the conquerors in the thread have their way we go beat up and vassalize the Trelli.

They still participate in the slave trade, and they still follow their own religion, whatever that may be.

In a midturn decision, we are given the option to ban the slave trade in Trelli, but we end up losing passive wealth income because other nations are unhappy with this decision and refuse to trade with the Trelli, and ultimately us, or have no other trade goods to offer than slaves.

Do you think we should allow the Trelli to continue their slave trading for a passive increase in wealth, or do you think we should stop said slave trade and lose some passive wealth while angering other nations?
I'd stop the slave trade. No questions. I prefer the good choice when I'm not sacrificing critical resources for it.
 
"You guys do you, i'm just a honest insurance broker." /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
...

I thought you were a kitty, but you're barking up the wrong tree. You see,


I'm already insured.

God damn cut throat competition!:anger:

We should outlaw insurance companies.

All sells person shall be staffed by cute mascots.
>Equalizing both our trades

>Trying to claim different now


Nice try...

I always remember~<3

What do you think happens when a major trade center loses access to a third of their trade goods by value?
How will the Khemtri react when deprived of the glass and mercury?
How will the region handle salt prices increasing fivefold?

That, is Trade Terrify. It'd be like China threatening to embargo the USA. Both sides will burn at present because we rely on their trade to keep the Hathatyn colonies happy, but with a Trade Post near them they don't really get a lot of choice between sign up or MAD.
Yeah! Or like China did with Great Britain!

...wait.
Whoops! Unintentional joke! Hah!

Nice job quitting. (I don't smoke either as it happens but the joke seemed funny)

Sadly I must still blam you if you attempt to make deals you furry little critter. Can't have random soul damage now can we?
Yeah, I'm the only allowed to on this thread :V

Close enough(;⌣̀_⌣́)
 
Okay, so let's do a hypothetical here.

Let's say the conquerors in the thread have their way we go beat up and vassalize the Trelli.

They still participate in the slave trade, and they still follow their own religion, whatever that may be.

In a midturn decision, we are given the option to ban the slave trade in Trelli, but we end up losing passive wealth income because other nations are unhappy with this decision and refuse to trade with the Trelli, and ultimately us, or have no other trade goods to offer than slaves.

Do you think we should allow the Trelli to continue their slave trading for a passive increase in wealth, or do you think we should stop said slave trade and lose some passive wealth while angering other nations?
It all depends on the situation. What are our stats like, how will the Trelli feel about it, how militarized are the slave holding states, what is our stability like, what advantages do we have in this situation, etc...

If it won't kill us, I'd stop the slave trade without hesitation, but the situation is what matters, which is what I was trying to say with my example. After all, if we chose to stop the slave trade when doing so would bring the Khemtri or some other major power to our door, following the 'good' option becomes a bad idea, even if it is one we prefer. States literally cannot act just on the basis of what they think is good or bad, they have to act under the influence of the world around them.
 
It was meant to be an example, one others brought up. The idea is still the same, pursuing what is 'good' or 'right' can cause much greater suffering than what is necessary.
As far as examples go, it is a poor one. Even the temporary dissolution of countries into bandit states is a lesser evil in comparison to the continued kidnapping, dehumanization, sale, and abuse of innocents.

However, obviously:
It is unlikely that slavery will end as a result of making Trelli no longer a center for trade.
It is unlikely that nations will end as a result of making Trelli no longer a center for trade.
 
I'd stop the slave trade. No questions. I prefer the good choice when I'm not sacrificing critical resources for it.
Is Wealth not critical?

We use wealth to provide for a variety of resources that help make our people prosperous.

Are the trade goods not critical?

If there was a polity that traded a ton of gold and silver, both which are needed for our currency, and only wanted slaves in return, would them no longer giving us gold and silver not hurt our currency and overall threaten Ymaryn dominance and prosperity?

I suppose the better question to ask is, at what point do you believe it is critical enough that you are willing to abandon your morals and principles?
 
As far as examples go, it is a poor one. Even the temporary dissolution of countries into bandit states is a lesser evil in comparison to the continued kidnapping, dehumanization, sale, and abuse of innocents.

However, obviously:
It is unlikely that slavery will end as a result of making Trelli no longer a center for trade.
It is unlikely that nations will end as a result of making Trelli no longer a center for trade.
Ok, poor example, but the idea is still there. Taking an action that not only damages others but also damages or destroys ourselves for the sake of 'good' is not something a civ can do.
 
That is still a terrible idea, narratively, IMO. Every time the subject of distribute land has come up in the narrative, it has been under the auspices of greedy chiefs and other nobility. You have to remember, it isn't really the land they're administering. It's the people, and I'm hesitant to hand greedy powermongers private jurisdiction over people.



Humans are greedy and power mongering. They should never have power over humans.

Except that collection of humans called the state, we should give them absolute power and remove any means of resistance or counterbalance to them.
After all they're saints according to themselves, and they couldn't possibly have anything but our best interest at heart.............
 
Can we talk about trade posts again? That was a fun little debate.

Or have you guys noticed how much goddamn land we "own" now? It's ridiculous. Like that whole stripe all the way to Xoh wetween those two rivers. It's pretty much like half the lowlands.
 
I suppose the better question to ask is, at what point do you believe it is critical enough that you are willing to abandon your morals and principles?
If it seriously threatens our survival or our power curve (which is a combination of long term survival, and long term population which are both top priorities.)

Technically I might put off ending the slave trade if we were in a bad enough crisis. Negative Weatlth in a famine or something.
 
Okay, so let's do a hypothetical here.

Let's say the conquerors in the thread have their way we go beat up and vassalize the Trelli.

They still participate in the slave trade, and they still follow their own religion, whatever that may be.

In a midturn decision, we are given the option to ban the slave trade in Trelli, but we end up losing passive wealth income because other nations are unhappy with this decision and refuse to trade with the Trelli, and ultimately us, or have no other trade goods to offer than slaves.

Do you think we should allow the Trelli to continue their slave trading for a passive increase in wealth, or do you think we should stop said slave trade and lose some passive wealth while angering other nations?
Ancient Ymaryn Practices: Can't reach us!

The perk is we're really too far away to be afflicted by the fallout beyond the drop in silver/gold supply.
 
Humans are greedy and power mongering. They should never have power over humans.

Except that collection of humans called the state, we should give them absolute power and remove any means of resistance or counterbalance to them.
After all they're saints according to themselves, and they couldn't possibly have anything but our best interest at heart.............

It's because we are fallible that we wanted to put our trust in things greater then us; Gods, Emperors, Kings, States, Idols.

But contracts are eternal.
 
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Humans are greedy and power mongering. They should never have power over humans.

Except that collection of humans called the state, we should give them absolute power and remove any means of resistance or counterbalance to them.
After all they're saints according to themselves, and they couldn't possibly have anything but our best interest at heart.............
What is the saying, 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'?

Central governments work so long as the power is never fully concentrated. Separation of powers is one of those things that you really have to admire the American founding fathers for.

Even if it was in large part due to paranoia about the role of central government getting too powerful. :V
 
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If it seriously threatens our survival or our power curve (which is a combination of long term survival, and long term population which are both top priorities.)

Technically I might put off ending the slave trade if we were in a bad enough crisis. Negative Weatlth in a famine or something.
Okay, so if lets say the Trelli tell us that we cannot pass their city, you will be against going out and conquering them because they have no way of conquering us and our population is still steadily growing in our many, many holdings?

So you would agree that aggressively conquering and subjugating a city for what is by all accounts currently an inconvenience is something that is not Good and something that we shouldn't pursue?
 
Ok, poor example, but the idea is still there. Taking an action that not only damages others but also damages or destroys ourselves for the sake of 'good' is not something a civ can do.
And yet, invading Trelli and ending slave trade at it will neither destroy us nor significantly damage us in a way that isn't, essentially, a benefit.

Khemetri is too far to attack us, as they have no need to develop better boats. Trying will result in overhauling their sociopolitical model and diverting actions toward naval power. Needless to say, wooden boats are hard for a desert to field in any great numbers, so such an effort is essentially futile.
The Tin Tribes are likely too small to impact Greenriver (the height of our heartland or more away) and being attacked by them essentially provides us with an opportunity to subjugate them.
The Metal Workers likely still acquire their slaves through raiding nearby polities and internal production.
The Saffron Isles are likely the only people who could possibly damage us and they have other goods than slaves to offer and other goods than slaves to buy.

Invading Trelli for the purpose of ending slavery is both right and feasible; both moral and pragmatic.
 
The poor half.

...until a few hundred years of black soil turns it into a breadbasket :)
Black soil and forest rotation. Good shit right there.

I do wonder, if we turned them into a colony and they started expanding forest in the lowlands, what that would do to the local environment. Undoubtedly, our own forest management has prevented more widespread desiccation, locally and likely in the lowlands as well, but if a large portion of the lowlands had the same? That's a huge land area.

Okay, so if lets say the Trelli tell us that we cannot pass their city, you will be against going out and conquering them because they have no way of conquering us and our population is still steadily growing in our many, many holdings?

So you would agree that aggressively conquering and subjugating a city for what is by all accounts currently an inconvenience is something that is not Good and something that we shouldn't pursue?
That wouldn't be a survival issue. Hell, it wouldn't be a huge issue at all. We have other trade partners and we mostly trade luxuries. It would definitely destabilize us a bit. Probably two points worth. But not much more.
 
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PLEEEASE BLAM HIM!!!!
It's because we are fallible that we wanted to put our trust in things greater then us; Gods, Emperors, Kings, States, Idols.

But contracts are eternal.
Ahem.



There. All better.


Black soil and forest rotation. Good shit right there.

I do wonder, if we turned them into a colony and they started expanding forest in the lowlands, what that would do to the local environment. Undoubtedly, our own forest management has prevented more widespread desiccation, locally and likely in the lowlands as well, but if a large portion of the lowlands had the same? That's a huge land area.
Can we talk about trade posts again? That was a fun little debate.

Or have you guys noticed how much goddamn land we "own" now? It's ridiculous. Like that whole stripe all the way to Xoh wetween those two rivers. It's pretty much like half the lowlands.
Actually I think we have word of AN that our vassal has a claim on all that land but has not expanded to cover it, they are still approximately the size they were on the main map. I can go looking if you want?

E: Unless that "claim" is what you meant by "own" and you meant that we still technically move in.
 
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Okay, so if lets say the Trelli tell us that we cannot pass their city, you will be against going out and conquering them because they have no way of conquering us and our population is still steadily growing in our many, many holdings?

So you would agree that aggressively conquering and subjugating a city for what is by all accounts currently an inconvenience is something that is not Good and something that we shouldn't pursue?
Just to be clear, good is not my primary concern. It's secondary.

And Trelli, by nature of position and their policy, are going to impact our power curve severely by limiting trade and exploration. Even AN said that ideally we'd conquer them and put our capital there.

Now, conquering them is not the only favorable solution here. I'm perfectly content if we just bully a reasonable transit deal out of them. If we manage that we can probably wait and diploannex them. (Though that would mean leaving the center of the slave trade running for a long time, which is very unpleasant.)

One thing you've got to admit: we at least pick bad guys to want to beat up. Child burners, slave traders, madly aggressive orcs...
 
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