Shifting winds
[X][Mine] Admit that mistakes were made on the record so that future rulers might not repeat them (-1 Stability)
[X][Main] Improve Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Expand Economy
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support

Provinces – [Main] Megaproject, [Main] Expand Econ
Stallions – [Main] Art Patronage, [Sec] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls
Western - [Main] Build Watchtowers, [Main] New Trails, [Main] Expand Econ, [Sec] Survey
Greenshore – [Main] Build Mills x2
Hatvalley – [Main] New Settlement, [Main] Build Mills, [Sec] New Trails
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] Survey, [Main] Trade Mission – Nomads
Lowland Minors – [Main] Build Walls, [Main] Expand Econ

The king considered the issue for a long time, discussing it with his advisors and those who might be affected, before he finally came to a conclusion.

"We encouraged this. Perhaps we did not cause it, perhaps we are free from blame, but are we free from guilt? Could not more have been done? Perhaps, perhaps not, but future generations can never learn and do better if we do not admit fault here, if we do not say, 'We moved too fast because we got greedy'. So, take this tragedy and make it known, let people know that mistakes were made, but that we shall try better in the future. Take the wealth we took from this and turn it back to the community, such that all will know that this was meant to enrich all, and not a greedy few."

And thus it was the lessons were learned and taught, and the People did have the shock of knowing that their leadership could really screw things up with short sighted greed.

Only then, something unexpected happened. The gods smiled upon the People. The People had found peace with the environment, their neighbours, and even the demons within themselves, and for this peace the rains and winds shifted. Unstable mud became wonderfully stable, moist soil that seemed eager to be planted, and the places where water liked to pool and stagnate dried to become green glens. With just a bit of work the water works were adjusted and generations of labour turned into a bursting of life. The demons of disease haunting the forests disappeared entirely, and all the efforts the People had put into fighting them turned into a tremendous release from the misery of loss of children and elders. Only in myths and the oldest records was such a thing as this ever heard of, but the king's apology to the People soon became a celebration.

The gods had been testing them, and they passed! Life begat life, generosity begat generosity, and peace begat peace! Somewhere along the line the music of the festivals took this up, something changing in the way they did things to better express the transcendent joy to be alive and know that the purpose the gods had made for them was to be alive and love each other!



Symphony -> Joyous Symphony
All have their part to play in this world, be it their interaction with each other, their neighbours, or with the spirits. When all the parts of a group are moving in peaceful accord, the result is greater than the sum of the parts, and transcendental to behold.
Pros: Bonus to collective action, spiritually and ecologically harmonious actions, and to concerted efforts. Gain +1 Stability every time a defensive war non-destructively ends.
Cons: Disharmony is to be corrected, require casus belli to declare war

And with the winds and rains calmed, the seas became easier to cross, and with no wars with their neighbours the People once more could trade openly and move their goods in relative safety, wealth flowed like never before. Even if tax collection was still being weird and there were inefficiencies and odd forms of corruption, suddenly so much was moving that it was hard to see the little losses, even if the king was assured that it was actually quite a lot once you tallied it all.

Climate Change Ended!
Disrupted Trade Ended!
Baby Boom Activated!
All started at the beginning of the turn!


Limited to a relatively small area, Greenshore also leveraged the considerable wealth they produced in serving as a way point between the People and the Metal Workers and the Trelli to build extensive mill projects. Interestingly, somewhere along the line someone had figured out a way to get the wheel to run in reverse, with input power being used to raise water up - probably some clever fellow trying to drain a swampy area - and the principle had become implemented in a most interesting way. By attaching a water lifting wheel to a stronger water wheel you could have water lifted by the motion of the river, which radically simplified the aqueduct project Greenshore was working on, as well as providing new insights for other locations where the problem was not so much access to water but getting the water to the right elevation to be simultaneously useful but safe to have running through your city. It might also be of great use in mines where the lower levels had an unfortunate tendency to fill up with water.

However, even as the metaphorical skies cleared, there were soon new clouds on the horizon, mostly from the direction of the Trelli, although of course there were already fresh tensions brewing in the north with nomad tribe numbers increasing. The Trelli though... the Trelli had obviously learned from their trade with the People, and had begun to start striking their own coins to facilitate trade. This caused a minor hiccup as the Trelli became a net sink of silver and gold, but fortunately the People had both enough luxury items and enough production of their own that their own need of precious metals for coinage was not significantly affected. However...

"Any idea why there's so much less saffron this season?"

"The ships from the place where its made are more full of slaves these days - more profitable with all the fighting."

To slowly dawning realization and then horror, it was discovered that the Trelli had also figured out that you could pay warriors very well to fight very hard for you, and had turned this into a way to massively recruit from the tribes around them. Those that they were paying were being used to attack outlying tribes that didn't produce anything of "value", raiding them for slaves to be sold to richer trade partners, or those who might get "better" use out of them like the various groups that did mining with slaves and traded the results to the Trelli. The more loyal warriors were farmed out to the rich kingdoms of the Saffron Isles to better assist in their feuds... also producing more slaves, especially as Trelli coin fueled massive incentive to raid your neighbours for the money to buy their mercenaries before your neighbours did the same to you first.

Worse yet, there were rumours that the knife hulled ships that hugged the Trelli coasts and aggressively patrolled their strait were being built with the intent to fill with mercenaries to hunt the trade ships of the sea. Why trade with others when you could just take their things for yourself? So far these were just rumours coming from the unknown southern seas, but the People had to admit that their ships were mostly used for trade and exploration and weren't really meant for fighting in the way the sea cutting ships of the Trelli were.

One definite response was to put down a new trading post to the north-west of Trelli, upon the river that was the main access route into the interior of the mountains where the Tin Tribes dwelt. While definitely something of a provocation, it would allow the People to influence the tin trade before it got to Trelli. That would negatively influence both their finances and ability to arm their mercenaries, as well as reducing the flow of wealth necessary to keep the number of mercenaries they had hired happily paid off through simple competition. That might trigger a fight that the People would have a hard time supporting, but the Red Banner Company could be deployed to help the location stay safe while it was getting established and built. Hopefully they could also just use trade and shifting wealth around to get the Trelli to be less aggressive towards their neighbours, rather than encouraging strife for profit.

The gods had just lifted their curse from the People over not doing that!

There were other options too. There was another site to the east of Trelli, at the mouth of the river that had once fed out of north-west Hathatyn territory - now a scattered collection of villages and bandit clans. While less provocative towards the Trelli, it would greatly facilitate trade from Hatriver to the Trelli, enabling the People to more efficiently haul wealth away from that city via the mines from Hatvalley. It was also more defensible by the People, if still needing early protection by the Red Banner. Or perhaps they could set up a post in the far north to collect exotics... possibly also see if they could make bigger ships out of some of the semi-mythical trees that were said to be there.

Or maybe do nothing at all on that front.

Expansion
[] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
[] [Exp] Do nothing here

External Diplomacy
[] [Diplo] Open fresh trade (Two Sec Trade Missions to neighbours)
[] [Diplo] Demonstrate wealth (Main Salt Gift)
[] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[] [Diplo] Stay home, garden (Main Expand Econ)

Internal Focus
[] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[] [Int] Garden (Main Expand Econ)
[] [Int] Plant forests (Main Expand Forests)
[] [Int] Water wheels are awesome (Main Build Mills)
[] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)​
 
Actually I think we have word of AN that our vassal has a claim on all that land but has not expanded to cover it, they are still approximately the size they were on the main map. I can go looking if you want
No, you're right. The claim does mean that as of this moment we essentially own it. Yeah, it's unsettled and that ownership is currently meaningless, but I wasn't trying to go super into specifics and technicalities.

Edit: Yay! Update!
 
Black soil and forest rotation. Good shit right there.

I do wonder, if we turned them into a colony and they started expanding forest in the lowlands, what that would do to the local environment. Undoubtedly, our own forest management has prevented more widespread desiccation, locally and likely in the lowlands as well, but if a large portion of the lowlands had the same? That's a huge land area.


That wouldn't be a survival issue. Hell, it wouldn't be a huge issue at all. We have other trade partners and we mostly trade luxuries. It would definitely destabilize us a bit. Probably two points worth. But not much more.
Sorry if I didn't word it correctly, but that's rather the point I was trying to make.

The Trelli barring us from trading with people further than their city is currently an inconvenience at best, so I don't understand why everyone is so gung ho on conquering them like our survival depends on it.

There are so many other thing we can and should do, like consolidate our holdings, integrate our subordinates, build up our holdings, build more megaprojects, build more roads....I could go on.

There are so many thing we can do that don't involve conquest that everyone seems to be ignoring.
 
I think this is what we call a technicality, Veekie. We know they are on the river between Metal Workers and Trelli. We might as well know exactly where they are.
Uh, we know where they are in about the same sense as knowing where the Metalworkers are during the era of the Star Axe.

We have a direction and a landmark. Distance matters
What is the saying, 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'?

Central governments work so long as the power is never fully concentrated. Separation of powers is one of those things that you really have to admire the American founding fathers for.

Even if it was in large part due to paranoia about the role of central government getting too powerful. :V
Well, America was basically blobbed rebelling trade posts...

Okay, so if lets say the Trelli tell us that we cannot pass their city, you will be against going out and conquering them because they have no way of conquering us and our population is still steadily growing in our many, many holdings?

So you would agree that aggressively conquering and subjugating a city for what is by all accounts currently an inconvenience is something that is not Good and something that we shouldn't pursue?
Kind of inefficient. Just buy them out. Build a trade post near them and stuff it to the gills with resources to take over their trade and push pilgrimage routes their ways to convert them.

Then they would wind up in a situation where their options are to attack us and lose or join us and win.
Khemetri is too far to attack us, as they have no need to develop better boats. Trying will result in overhauling their sociopolitical model and diverting actions toward naval power. Needless to say, wooden boats are hard for a desert to field in any great numbers, so such an effort is essentially futile.

FYI, Egypt is one of the greenest and most fertile parts of the world.
They don't lack wood for a long while.
 
And yet, invading Trelli and ending slave trade at it will neither destroy us nor significantly damage us in a way that isn't, essentially, a benefit.

Khemetri is too far to attack us, as they have no need to develop better boats. Trying will result in overhauling their sociopolitical model and diverting actions toward naval power. Needless to say, wooden boats are hard for a desert to field in any great numbers, so such an effort is essentially futile.
The Tin Tribes are likely too small to impact Greenriver (the height of our heartland or more away) and being attacked by them essentially provides us with an opportunity to subjugate them.
The Metal Workers likely still acquire their slaves through raiding nearby polities and internal production.
The Saffron Isles are likely the only people who could possibly damage us and they have other goods than slaves to offer and other goods than slaves to buy.

Invading Trelli for the purpose of ending slavery is both right and feasible; both moral and pragmatic.
I should never have brought up the slavery issue...

Ignore the slavery part. My point was meant to be against the idea that we have an obligation to act 'good' as a civ. My previous example was the razing of Xohyr, which people have again and again decried as an 'evil' action, even though it was militarily and politically the best possible decision our nomad king could make. The 'good' option would have been to set terms of surrender, however that would have taken at least several days, more if we actually wanted a good deal, during which the risk to the Ymaryn homeland would become greater and greater each day.

Phy chose to raze the city instead. This removed the Xoh as a legitimate threat, turning a 1v2 fight into a 1v1, which is a massive military advantage to us. Politically, he also terrified the TS enough that they backed out and left the HK out to hang.

His choice, while not the 'good' one, was the correct one as a civ.

However, imagine if that had actually been put to a vote. Committing what could be considered genocide in order to save our people? There are many that would refuse just on that basis alone. Which means we would likely have been fighting a three front war in the lowlands, or at best a one front war with two other possible fronts that could open up at any time.

A civ cannot fully base its decisions on the good, which was the point I was getting at, not whether we should end slavery if we take over the Trelli. I'll be more careful in the future to pick a topic people won't latch onto I guess...
 
Problem is, it turns out that if we do cut off the slave trade, multiple major nations will outright crumble as they lose their workforce, and even more will crumble as those nations collapse.
Well, in that case - if that is the result, and you know for sure that will be the result, cutting off the slave trade is NOT actually the right or good thing to do, because the ills of that decision outweigh the benefits of that decision. Your argument that states hence cannot look at moral is wrong - they just can't use deontological ethics, is all. But those are a wrong-headed attempt at ethics anyway.

I mean, ironically, your entire argument here was in fact about what option is the ethically superior one. So, it was actually making decisions based on ethics. Your very example for why states shouldn't do decisions based on ethics... was an argument for a decision based on ethics.

And that is not just a product of your example. Your entire argument is that if nations follow good, this will result in bad outcomes. But if those bad outcomes are known, then this is not actually following good. The problem here is not following ethics, but following wrong-headed ethics.

Now, onto the update...
 
Symphony -> Joyous Symphony
All have their part to play in this world, be it their interaction with each other, their neighbours, or with the spirits. When all the parts of a group are moving in peaceful accord, the result is greater than the sum of the parts, and transcendental to behold.
Pros: Bonus to collective action, spiritually and ecologically harmonious actions, and to concerted efforts. Gain +1 Stability every time a defensive war non-destructively ends.
Cons: Disharmony is to be corrected, require casus belli to declare war
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHHA YAY!

YAY!



WE NEED A THEME SONG! @Malevolo ! Hurry!


EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

E (Obviously hasn't read all of the update and missed the music)
 
Expansion
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[X] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
[X] [Exp] Do nothing here

External Diplomacy
[X] [Diplo] Open fresh trade (Two Sec Trade Missions to neighbours)
[X] [Diplo] Demonstrate wealth (Main Salt Gift)
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Diplo] Stay home, garden (Main Expand Econ)

Internal Focus
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[X] [Int] Garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [Int] Plant forests (Main Expand Forests)
[X] [Int] Water wheels are awesome (Main BuildMills)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
General
Diplomacy 13 [+2]
Economy 11 [-2+5]
Econ Expansion 6 [+2-5]
Martial 10 {13}
Wealth 13 [+3-1]

Stability
Stability 1 (confident)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 4

Cultural
Art 8
Mysticism 15 [+1]
Prestige 48

Statuses
King of the Hill: You are the most prestigious polity around, gaining you +1 Diplomacy a turn, but all other groups gain the 'Take the Crown' casus belli
Tax reform needed
- Lose 1-3 Wealth per turn until complete The Law (Iron Age) megaproject. Prereqs to unlock: The Census?, Grand Palace?
Baby Boom: Converting 5 Econ Expansion to 5 Econ a turn
 
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[] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

I think this would be the best narrative actions we can take.
 
Well, now I seem like kinda an idiot arguing for the Trelli the last couple of turns, since they immediately went into turbo assholery.
 
Plan New Avenues & Better Boats To Sail Them
[] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)

v

Plan Local Cultural Remediation
[] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[] [Diplo] Open fresh trade (Two Sec Trade Missions to neighbours)
[] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

v

Plan Internal Consolidation
[] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
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[X] [Exp] Do nothing here
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
Sorry if I didn't word it correctly, but that's rather the point I was trying to make.

The Trelli barring us from trading with people further than their city is currently an inconvenience at best, so I don't understand why everyone is so gung ho on conquering them like our survival depends on it.

There are so many other thing we can and should do, like consolidate our holdings, integrate our subordinates, build up our holdings, build more megaprojects, build more roads....I could go on.

There are so many thing we can do that don't involve conquest that everyone seems to be ignoring.
We're arguing about long term not short term.
 
Expansion
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[X] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
[X] [Exp] Do nothing here

External Diplomacy
[X] [Diplo] Open fresh trade (Two Sec Trade Missions to neighbours)
[X] [Diplo] Demonstrate wealth (Main Salt Gift)
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Diplo] Stay home, garden (Main Expand Econ)

Internal Focus
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
[X] [Int] Garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] [Int] Plant forests (Main Expand Forests)
[X] [Int] Water wheels are awesome (Main BuildMills)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
It's... beautiful.

And the news with the Trelli is kinda hilariously ironic considering the arguments raging earlier.
Well, now I seem like kinda an idiot arguing for the Trelli the last couple of turns, since they immediately went into turbo assholery.
It's... fitting indeed. But of course, so is Joyous Symphony. Our "don't start wars!" attitude just got ingrained even deeper into our culture.
 
I think West Trelli trade post.

One thing to point out here: if we take expand econ the baby boom will pump straight into Wealth, and from there into Diplo.
 
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