Paths of Civilization

Susano · Jul 13, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
This I don't, there is no such thing as 'successful enough' this sort of thinking is why people shouldn't try because they 'clearly' done enough.

And why not? I condemn moral nihilism, but I'm all for nihilism of purpose.

pbluekan said:
Ok, by that logic every nation ever is evil. Let's not kid ourselves. We take things using relative comparisons and also accounting for differences in time.

Is America now the same place that killed hundreds of thousands of Native Americans? Is America more evil than Nazi Germany?

"Bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorem"
(To be good, it is not enough to better than the worst)
-Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Karugus said:
HARD MEN MAKING HARD DECISIONS is all about reveling in it. That man making said decision is to the right, or noble, or just for making that call.

Actually, the way it is usually written, it goes exactly as you said. Some hand-wringing about how it is not good, not noble... and with that quickly out of the way, let's do it because it is necessary, and only we have the mental strength to actually make those decisions! That is what HMMHD is. It isn't declaring things noble. It is, as someone here called it, fetishization of callousness. Reveling in the own (or the character's) ability to make the "necessary" hard decisions. And while you're saying that it isn't noble, you sure as hell come across as callous about the prospect of conquest indeed.

When Phygrif sacked Xohyr, innocents were slaughtered, men tortured, women raped, children hauled off to be not!slaves- there's nothing 'good' about that, there's nothing noble or wholesome in it. But the fall of Xohyr was definitely to the benefit of the Ymaryn- and that's my primary concern, I dare say it's the primary concern of a lot of people in power today.

So by your own admission, we should burn cities and enslave people if it conveniences us? Jesus fuck. I don't care if you admit that this is not the noble path. Those are clearly only words to you.

Sivantic · Jul 13, 2017

Karugus said:
My point was that there's a reason every civilization has had their share of monstrous acts, and it's not because every civilization is monstrous- and that assuming we can remain entirely above such acts is arrogant.

If that's dismissed as 'Hard men making hard decisions while hard' than that's on them. At this point, I don't really care enough to try and further explain my position here, especially when I tried to go out of my way to state this wasn't just a 'hard men have to make hard decisions' argument.

That definitely does not sound what your initial statement said.

You're initial statement sounded as an advocation to take the Trelli as it was necessary to the Ymaryn for various reasons. That it would not be a good act, but still necessary. That definitely sounds like Hard Man making Hard Decisions.

Karugus · Jul 13, 2017

Susano said:
But I do. All this moral-nihilist crap about "History is written by the winners" and "good guys lose in the end" is really beginning to grate on me.

The thing is, you have presented absolutely no alternative to the 'HARD MEN' lobby as you call it. You can rail against imperialism, rail against amoral governance- but you have yet to propose any other course to steer other than 'cling to our principles'.

The fact is, we do need the Ymaryn to become at least a regional hegemon because eventually we'll deal with external invaders, be it Not!Atilla, Not!Genghis or the possible monotheistic religion that spurs a series of invasions (the Islamic Conquests). I'm scared, because in the long run, it's likely that we get broken and scattered to the winds by something. So I'd rather cut corners morally speaking now to try and get a stronger position, then wind up with the guys with even fewer moral compunctions slaughtering our people and destroying/desertifying our land. I mean, that's what happened to the people in the Fertile Crescent IRL after all.

I don't think there's a manifest destiny, or that we're fated to be a great power, or even that we necessarily have a mission to civilize- but I do know that there are a lot of people who will happily subjugate us and that even if we're safe for however long, they'll be there eventually. And at that point, I'm convinced all the good will and noble intentions will amount to nil unless we're strong enough to defend them.

Kiba · Jul 13, 2017

SpeckofStardust said:
The first is true the second is not, the good guys always win it is why they are considered good, and when they lose they become bad, that is the way of things. After all good and bad are human concepts not laws of nature.

If history is written by the winners, then by definition, historical accounts cannot be trusted. Because it's all bullshit and propaganda.

But this is not how historical scholarship works. The accounts are heavily scrutinized for bias and evidences are cited, given to a wide range of interpretation.

You can bet that the conquest and the destruction of the Xoh will be scrutinized and re-interpreted among countless generation of historians, Ymaryn and non-Ymaryn alike, assuming that it's any importance at all.

veekie · Jul 13, 2017

Killer_Whale said:
Buying slaves to free them gets messy very fast. As it increases the demand for them, so the supply will try to increase to match.
Freeing them once we control Trelli is the simple option. (controlling Trelli is the had part with this.)

Point of interest, the Ymaryn are likely driving an increase in the slave trade, due to our multiple trade dominances. We're buying up massive amounts of goods, and we refuse to take slaves in payment, which means that basically you get this:

Ymaryn:
-Buy: Gold, Silver, Saffron, Fine Textiles
-Sell: Tyrian Purple, Gems, Glass, Mercury, Copper, Pilgrimage passage

The Trelli buy vast amounts of Gold from the Khemtri, and Silver from the Tin Hills. They pay the Khemtri in Tin and Gems, which they buy from the Tin Hills and the Ymaryn.

So the Tin Hills have to step up production, and that means buying lots of slaves. The Khemtri also need to step up production on top of their wonder rush so they're ALSO buying slaves from the Trelli.

So the Trelli must buy slaves from the Med region to pay for their goods, which they trade Tyrian Purple, Salt, Glass and Mercury for.
Which means all along the not-Med Slavery is more profitable than ever in history, so the proto-greeks are probably raiding each other like mad to produce slaves for export. Ending the Trelli slave trade is going to have...interesting results.

ThrawnCA said:
I think you misunderstand, or else I do. The proposal is, we simply build better ships than theirs and sail right through.

They haven't physically blocked the strait, just built fast boats to intercept anyone trying to pass through. If our boats are bigger, faster, and better, we can just do as we please - thus, ignoring them.

Park a trade post near them, and buy them out.
At our current situation once trade resumes, with a trade post near them they're basically a Ymaryn port in all but name, because their most valued goods are all controlled by us.

I'd note we could probably Terrify them using trade dominances if we had enough

Reader of all · Jul 13, 2017

Susano said:
But I do. All this moral-nihilist crap about "History is written by the winners" and "good guys lose in the end" is really beginning to grate on me.

Well technically it is not history is written by the victors but by the literate why do you think vikings are so misrepresented despite winning and since we are the only power in the area with libraries history is literally ours to write no doubt after a few hundred years the xoh will just be boogeymen lowland parents tell their children about.

Kiba said:
I am pretty sure that history would have also judged him as a monster, if they care to acknowledge him at all. And it wasn't strictly necessary to conquer the Xoh. They were a strategic counterweight to the HK and other polities. Now, we *are* that counterweight.

And we are doing quite good at that plus we can now expand into the lowlands with little to no resistance so there is that.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 13, 2017

Kiba said:
If history is written by the winners, then by definition, historical accounts cannot be trusted. Because it's all bullshit and propaganda.

But this is not how historical scholarship works. The accounts are heavily scrutinized for bias and evidences are cited, given to a wide range of interpretation.

You can bet that the conquest and the destruction of the Xoh will be scrutinized and re-interpreted among countless generation of historians, Ymaryn and non-Ymaryn alike, assuming that it's any importance at all.

And the Xoh were children killers.
The fact of the matter is the almost no one considers themselves evil when they do any action.

pbluekan · Jul 13, 2017

Susano said:
Bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorem

Thanks for bringing this back, but again my point was not whether or not a country is evil, but on a relative scale how they compare. People can always be better and they should strive for it. When an argument is throwing out shit like '"blah blah blah" is unconscionably evil,' it tends to get me riled up because it's a pointless, baseless thing to say. If you are going to classify a group as evil, then you need to classify everyone in a similar manner. In a world like ours that means everyone is evil, and thus you have a new baseline for what the standard is.

What is evil when everyone is evil?

Edit: We set a pretty high bar, but if you looked at some of the Ymaryn laws and practices it would look positively barbaric by modern moral standards. I mean, the half exiles? It isn't slavery, and I don't think it is terribly close, but the shit they have to do as penance is just awful.

tryrar · Jul 13, 2017

@Academia Nut How likley an update soon? Gonna go to sleep otherwise

Kiba · Jul 13, 2017

pbluekan said:
Yes. This is also why we are pretty much insulated from that sort of problem. Even when iron is developed elsewhere we shouldn't have a problem. It's pretty common stuff and we have a huge native supply.

Gotta love those elements that are fused in g-type stars during their main and late stages, they're common as dirt.

In a long enough timespan, all the stars left in the galaxy will be iron stars. All atomic matter either fused into iron or decay into it. It may be the last energy source in the universe before we fade away, assuming if we ever figure out to eke out the last once of energy.

Crazy7s1 · Jul 13, 2017

Susano said:
If it is a war that would fuck over what we stand for, then yes. So best don't start such wars. Why do you treat this as if it is somehow worse than starting imperialist wars of conquest in the first place?

So what your saying is if we were to enter in to a war that went against what you personally believed we stand for you would in fact sabotage it? That's nice to know. As for why I'm treating this as I am, the vibe you are currently giving off is: "We're doing this my way or no way at all." And that frankly isn't how someone should act in a quest, sometimes what you want doesn't win, when that happens you need to either roll with it or walk away. What you shouldn't do is decide to:

Susano said:
I will vote to actively sabotage them if necessary!

BungieONI · Jul 13, 2017

veekie said:
I'd note we could probably Terrify them using trade dominances if we had enough

Okay what do you mean by this? Cause it sounds really weird but also vaguely funny and or just interesting.

veekie said:
So the Trelli must buy slaves from the Med region to pay for their goods, which they trade Tyrian Purple, Salt, Glass and Mercury for.
Which means all along the not-Med Slavery is more profitable than ever in history, so the proto-greeks are probably raiding each other like mad to produce slaves for export. Ending the Trelli slave trade is going to have...interesting results.

Soooo how big of an explosion do you figure would happen. Or more accurately how interesting do you think things will get?

Kiba · Jul 13, 2017

A military action isn't necessary against the Trelli. Either we absorb them through cultural assimilation or they give us a reason to conquer them.

Raichu1972 · Jul 13, 2017

Crazy7s1 said:
So what your saying is if we were to enter in to a war that went against what you personally believed we stand for you would in fact sabotage it? That's nice to know. As for why I'm treating this as I am, the vibe you are currently giving off is: "We're doing this my way or no way at all." And that frankly isn't how someone should act in a quest, sometimes what you want doesn't win, when that happens you need to either roll with it or walk away. What you shouldn't do is decide to:

When I read that, I interpreted it as "If people vote for options that lead to wars of conquest, I'm going to vote against said option and try to convince others to vote against said option."

There's no real way to "sabotage" a vote in a quest as large as this.

ThrawnCA · Jul 13, 2017

BungieONI said:
Soooo how big of an explosion do you figure would happen. Or more accurately how interesting do you think things will get?

If you want interesting, let's build up alternative contacts in the east, then say, We won't trade with slavers, and watch what happens in Trelli. Invent popcorn first.

pbluekan · Jul 13, 2017

BungieONI said:
Soooo how big of an explosion do you figure would happen. Or more accurately how interesting do you think things will get?

Holy crap. I didn't think of that.

It would probably preempt a fairly large collapse of trade all across the Mediterranean basin, which in turn would collapse a whole lot of those civs which thrive on the slave trade.

The raiders who no longer need to raid would turn to banditry and old grudges would cause wars as the raided rose back up.

*BOOM*

Edit: Khemet can no longer build wonders effectively.

Reader of all · Jul 13, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
There's no real way to "sabotage" a vote in a quest as large as this.

Well you could always hijack a vote to make it a tie that way no one wins.

Kiba · Jul 13, 2017

pbluekan said:
Holy crap. I didn't think of that.

It would probably preempt a fairly large collapse of trade all across the Mediterranean basin, which in turn would collapse a whole lot of those civs which thrive on the slave trade.

The raiders who no longer need to raid would turn to banditry and old grudges would cause wars as the raided rose back up.

*BOOM*

Well, I did previously said that slavery makes a society more unstable...

BungieONI · Jul 13, 2017

pbluekan said:
Holy crap. I didn't think of that.

It would probably preempt a fairly large collapse of trade all across the Mediterranean basin, which in turn would collapse a whole lot of those civs which thrive on the slave trade.

The raiders who no longer need to raid would turn to banditry and old grudges would cause wars as the raided rose back up.

*BOOM*

Boom indeed. That right there sounds like the kick off to the Bronze Age Collapse to me.

I mean what happens to those monolithic top heavy structures like the Khem when their slave based economies have their one major source that we know of removed?

I imagine eternal war mk 2 in the Med from that as everyone raids everyone else for the slaves they need. It'd basically be the Lowlands Clusterfuck version two and worse.

If everything went to shit like I'm thinking it might, and to be frank it might not. They may be robust enough systems that the region can survive the cut off without collapsing into anarchy, but I kinda doubt it.

SpeckofStardust · Jul 13, 2017

pbluekan said:
Holy crap. I didn't think of that.

It would probably preempt a fairly large collapse of trade all across the Mediterranean basin, which in turn would collapse a whole lot of those civs which thrive on the slave trade.

The raiders who no longer need to raid would turn to banditry and old grudges would cause wars as the raided rose back up.

*BOOM*

And so utterly damming so many nations would be morally wrong when we could go about slowly convincing them to let go of their practices.
But yes obliterating all the peoples is perfectly fine however we need to be stable enough to take full advantage for it otherwise it will be a waste.

keenscythe · Jul 13, 2017

pbluekan said:
Edit: Khemet can no longer build wonders effectively.

My need to to conquer Trelli just jumped up a few ticks on the good ol' priority list.

The Prize of the race goes to he who crosses the line first, not the fastest runner.
Or in this case builders.

VoidZero · Jul 14, 2017

^^^

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Sivantic · Jul 14, 2017

Karugus said:
The thing is, you have presented absolutely no alternative to the 'HARD MEN' lobby as you call it. You can rail against imperialism, rail against amoral governance- but you have yet to propose any other course to steer other than 'cling to our principles'.

The fact is, we do need the Ymaryn to become at least a regional hegemon because eventually we'll deal with external invaders, be it Not!Atilla, Not!Genghis or the possible monotheistic religion that spurs a series of invasions (the Islamic Conquests). I'm scared, because in the long run, it's likely that we get broken and scattered to the winds by something. So I'd rather cut corners morally speaking now to try and get a stronger position, then wind up with the guys with even fewer moral compunctions slaughtering our people and destroying/desertifying our land. I mean, that's what happened to the people in the Fertile Crescent IRL after all.

I don't think there's a manifest destiny, or that we're fated to be a great power, or even that we necessarily have a mission to civilize- but I do know that there are a lot of people who will happily subjugate us and that even if we're safe for however long, they'll be there eventually. And at that point, I'm convinced all the good will and noble intentions will amount to nil unless we're strong enough to defend them.

Well I am not scared. We have built ourselves capable to build up instead of outward so we have less need to expand. Instead of waiting for the breaking of Ymaryn, I'd rather put my efforts into avoiding that fate.

"But History"

I care not. We are already an atypical civilization. What is one more difference!

VoidZero said:
^^^

via Imgflip Meme Generator

And I am the Hopeful Demon then

SpeckofStardust · Jul 14, 2017

VoidZero said:
^^^

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Please I did claim the title of devil, did I not?

BungieONI · Jul 14, 2017

VoidZero said:
^^^

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Nice one.

Want a smoke you fluffy devil?

*proffers the fluffy monster a smoke from his Commissariat jacket*

Paths of Civilization

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