- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Yes but as GM has stated that the more advance you get sociality wise the more special 'ages' may be unlocked.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I doubt that a Dark Age will result in a lot of movement across national borders, though.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I doubt the dark age is the only other age though.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well that's the only other type an's mentioned. I guess we as a thread have some ruminating to do.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
True. It will be interesting. We'll have to struggle to maintain our position as forerunners while still figuring out what other people fall prey to so we can avoid it ourselves.
What will our special age be? The snowflake era? The Mary Sue Kneecapper^tm ?
E: Note that the condition for regular outflow is that the era be a) troubled enough that people want to leave and yet b) slow enough that it doesn't resolve quickly.
- Location
- Huezil
@Academia Nut
Construction Chief: do we have any of these devices? *Shows Drawings*
Waterladder pump - Wikipedia Water wheel - Wikipedia Noria - Wikipedia Sakia - Wikipedia Archimedes' screw - Wikipedia Rope pump - Wikipedia
Construction Chief: do we have any of these devices? *Shows Drawings*
Waterladder pump - Wikipedia Water wheel - Wikipedia Noria - Wikipedia Sakia - Wikipedia Archimedes' screw - Wikipedia Rope pump - Wikipedia
It proves that different values produce different evolutions and that not all of those are desirable for us. We're the only ones likely to get values we don't want, because we're the only ones to draw values from other civs.
Edit: Unless that's a potential downside of being a conqueror...
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I can't say AN's note regarding Moloch Calls supports the idea that even the Dead Priests would want that trait, mechanically powerful or no.
They reaped what they sow.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
the dead priests clearly do. Whether their weak-stomached players do, though...
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Do remember that the players are an alternate version of us not copies of us
- Location
- The underworld
[X] [Main] Found March – Hatriver
[x] [Mission] Explore the East (Main Trade Mission - Into the Wild (East))
[x] [Mission] Support new friends (Main Salt Gift - modified returns)
[x] [March] Alter status (Transfer 2 Econ, changes status from March to Colony)
[x] [Temple] Improve idols to placate the gods (-2 progress)
[x] [Mission] Explore the East (Main Trade Mission - Into the Wild (East))
[x] [Mission] Support new friends (Main Salt Gift - modified returns)
[x] [March] Alter status (Transfer 2 Econ, changes status from March to Colony)
[x] [Temple] Improve idols to placate the gods (-2 progress)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
About Ymaryn Econ Vampirism Part 2
So I got even more curious about the Hathatyn and how they may have survived and did some more looking around on the Pioneering Spirit trait/traitline, which is I think the running theory on how they survived as a hot mess of gygo instead of atomizing.
Here is AN's words on the subject:
So, Pioneering Spirit never gives Stability. Just Econ for Centralization at 1:1 exchange, most of the time. It is possible but unlikely that advanced forms can mitigate the Stability drop which initially triggers the trait. However, we have no evidence of such a trait so I will ignore this possibility.
Moving to our CA trait now.
1. When we take refugees we are taking Econ from the target polities.
-When we take refugees and land it is especially damaging to the target polities. This exchange is not necessarily 1 to 1.
2. If we take from multiple civs, we spread the damage between them. This can make low Econ drops basically become rounding errors, expressed only narratively.
3. This can trigger off of the initial Stability hit to use Restore Order and similar actions, making them very dangerous to use.
-It can also in some cases, as ruled by AN, trigger on a Stability drop caused by us draining them to negative Econ. A special case basically.
4. Speculation -> CA may give the drained civ Stability. We don't have a lot of evidence this way, except possibly in the continuation of the Hathatyns.
The Hathatyns:
Current evidence shows that they are probably suffering from a Pioneering Spirit traitline crash spiral.
This sounds like okay stability, but absolutely crap Centralization. The question is, they were obviously at massively negative stability in <High times> due to environmental collapse, so where did the Stability come from?
Before our initial drain, they were all basically borked. Then AN said this about them after it was pretty certain we would be draining them.
Which I take to indicate that we saved them with our drain. I see this as strong evidence that we do give Stability back, or somehow prop up a civ we drain from. I mean how else would they survive? On the other hand it is quite possible that them entering the Heroic Age was caused by them hitting lethal negative stability and now they are in a suspended state of do or die. Either they figure it out or they straight up collapse.
If we are giving them Stability then, it is probably +1 Stability for -X Econ for them. If it is 1 to 1, then it's +1 Stability for -2 Econ, the same as for us but signs reversed when you don't count the chance roll of CA turning the stability to 0.5.
Assuming that it is not 1 to 1, due to size differences and farming tech differences, and that they have Pioneering Spirit only, it probably went like this.
From -1 to -3 Stability or worse for them. PS triggers, maybe giving them +2 Econ for -2 Cent?
We drain -X Econ from them and give them at least +3 Stability, if we assume that in <Come the rains> they are at 0 Stability but some large amount of negative Centralization.
In all likelyhood looking at this I figure they are at something like -3 or more Centralization, and close to 0 Economy.
If we don't give Stability then they are stuck at somewhere like -3 Stability and 0 Econ, with -3 or more Centralization.
So I got even more curious about the Hathatyn and how they may have survived and did some more looking around on the Pioneering Spirit trait/traitline, which is I think the running theory on how they survived as a hot mess of gygo instead of atomizing.
Here is AN's words on the subject:
So, Pioneering Spirit never gives Stability. Just Econ for Centralization at 1:1 exchange, most of the time. It is possible but unlikely that advanced forms can mitigate the Stability drop which initially triggers the trait. However, we have no evidence of such a trait so I will ignore this possibility.
About Ymaryn Econ Vampirism:
1. When we take refugees we are taking Econ from the target polities.
-When we take refugees and land it is especially damaging to the target polities.
2. Generally, most of our CA and LoO triggers have been from the HK, Thunder Speakers, and the Xohyssiri. This spreads the damage out among them, so our +2 Econ is not enough to impact them any more than in narrative. Rounding error, as it has been brought up. Higher Econ costs where we get +4-5 or more are more damaging.
-We don't know if it is one to one transfer. AN has said previously that between civs different stats have a different "value" so 1 of our Econ does not equal 1 of the HK's Econ(I'll go looking for the quote if anyone asks). Based on this I would say it is not one to one, but it is close when drawing from all three of the Lowlander civs.
3. In our most recent trigger we are taking specifically and only from the Hathatyn. Our +8-10 Econ is going to be a massive hit to them, some high number of their Econ.
-Speculation here: They seem more focused on mining and are very much not as good at farming as we are so I figure their Econ "value" is lower than ours, 1 point of our Econ is greater than 1 point of theirs.
4. This is in answer to the question "If we suck off enough econ to cause someone to lose stability, does that mean we then get another opportunity to suck off more econ?". i.e if a civ loses Stability for X reason, we Econ drain them -> we cause them to hit negative Econ and thus they lose more Stability -> we can get the opportunity to have another round of draining. However, that "depends on the circumstances" from AN tells me it's up to his ruling. The traits of the civ being drained and the context surrounding the drain probably have a lot to do with if this "Double Draining" can occur.
5. This means RoO is bad for them, as has been brought up. The initial -1 Stab hit means they hemorrhage Econ, and if we take the big enough hit it can actually cause a cascade into even more damage as they go negative. Thus the other civs around us have needed to evolve alternate means of raising Stability.
-This is mostly unconnected to if we give them stability back when we drain them. Why I think so is that: The potential Econ damage from RoO's initial drop is still too risky to keep using it. I mean logically what does it matter that they get 1 to 2 Stability back from us, when they were at -1 Stability in the first place and our Econ drain puts them at -3 or -4 Econ or worse?
6. In response to the Mega Drought the Xoh developed human sacrifice policies, during their formation. This is in the update <Wrath> when the Original Lowlander CIv broke. So, it seems that if you equate TGG with Human Sacrifice, then they got it on their own without our influence. We had not really descended from our foggy hills by this point. And they haven't really needed to change since because the Grand Sacrifice does not have an initial stab hit for us to trigger CA on. So we really have few means to drive them to negative Econ, unless they are already at low Econ and suffer a hit to stability and then we take the biggest hit we can. And nowadays they are really damn far so they are kinda out of reach. Speculation -> I think we are mainly drawing from the HK and TH now with maybe a little TS.
The HK on the other hand, seemed to have developed a direct counter due to proximity. By WoG the WC collapsed because of our draining on top of other factors and then the Hero King succeeded in uniting them into the HK. This collapse is probably in part because the WC had RoO only, maybe one or two other actions. So what does the HK do? They evolve Order Above All, which probably upgraded RoO or one of the Enforce line of actions (probably one of the Enforce) so that it did not have an initial Stability cost. Then the HK complete the Law and suddenly they have a Stability option that allows for Stab gain at no cost except Centralization. I do believe we also got Proclaim Glory from them too, which is another option which does not have an initial Stability cost.
Pure Speculation -> Considering their constant civil wars I figure their Centralization must be relatively low constantly and triggers problems every time they have a Stability drop. I figure the reason it is low is because it must drop every time we drain them significantly, possibly through an evolved form of Pioneering Spirit that behaves semi-symbiotically with our CA. So they can just pop an Enforce Law and boom their Cent is back in the semi green area. More speculation -> Perhaps this civil warring comes from the advanced Pioneering Spirit trait's con. Much like our Quality of it's Own trait, they have a civil war malus that triggers if they hit negative stability when at low Centralization, or possibly high Cent as the province chiefs buck the yoke of the King.
1. When we take refugees we are taking Econ from the target polities.
-When we take refugees and land it is especially damaging to the target polities.
2. Generally, most of our CA and LoO triggers have been from the HK, Thunder Speakers, and the Xohyssiri. This spreads the damage out among them, so our +2 Econ is not enough to impact them any more than in narrative. Rounding error, as it has been brought up. Higher Econ costs where we get +4-5 or more are more damaging.
-We don't know if it is one to one transfer. AN has said previously that between civs different stats have a different "value" so 1 of our Econ does not equal 1 of the HK's Econ(I'll go looking for the quote if anyone asks). Based on this I would say it is not one to one, but it is close when drawing from all three of the Lowlander civs.
3. In our most recent trigger we are taking specifically and only from the Hathatyn. Our +8-10 Econ is going to be a massive hit to them, some high number of their Econ.
-Speculation here: They seem more focused on mining and are very much not as good at farming as we are so I figure their Econ "value" is lower than ours, 1 point of our Econ is greater than 1 point of theirs.
4. This is in answer to the question "If we suck off enough econ to cause someone to lose stability, does that mean we then get another opportunity to suck off more econ?". i.e if a civ loses Stability for X reason, we Econ drain them -> we cause them to hit negative Econ and thus they lose more Stability -> we can get the opportunity to have another round of draining. However, that "depends on the circumstances" from AN tells me it's up to his ruling. The traits of the civ being drained and the context surrounding the drain probably have a lot to do with if this "Double Draining" can occur.
5. This means RoO is bad for them, as has been brought up. The initial -1 Stab hit means they hemorrhage Econ, and if we take the big enough hit it can actually cause a cascade into even more damage as they go negative. Thus the other civs around us have needed to evolve alternate means of raising Stability.
-This is mostly unconnected to if we give them stability back when we drain them. Why I think so is that: The potential Econ damage from RoO's initial drop is still too risky to keep using it. I mean logically what does it matter that they get 1 to 2 Stability back from us, when they were at -1 Stability in the first place and our Econ drain puts them at -3 or -4 Econ or worse?
6. In response to the Mega Drought the Xoh developed human sacrifice policies, during their formation. This is in the update <Wrath> when the Original Lowlander CIv broke. So, it seems that if you equate TGG with Human Sacrifice, then they got it on their own without our influence. We had not really descended from our foggy hills by this point. And they haven't really needed to change since because the Grand Sacrifice does not have an initial stab hit for us to trigger CA on. So we really have few means to drive them to negative Econ, unless they are already at low Econ and suffer a hit to stability and then we take the biggest hit we can. And nowadays they are really damn far so they are kinda out of reach. Speculation -> I think we are mainly drawing from the HK and TH now with maybe a little TS.
The HK on the other hand, seemed to have developed a direct counter due to proximity. By WoG the WC collapsed because of our draining on top of other factors and then the Hero King succeeded in uniting them into the HK. This collapse is probably in part because the WC had RoO only, maybe one or two other actions. So what does the HK do? They evolve Order Above All, which probably upgraded RoO or one of the Enforce line of actions (probably one of the Enforce) so that it did not have an initial Stability cost. Then the HK complete the Law and suddenly they have a Stability option that allows for Stab gain at no cost except Centralization. I do believe we also got Proclaim Glory from them too, which is another option which does not have an initial Stability cost.
Pure Speculation -> Considering their constant civil wars I figure their Centralization must be relatively low constantly and triggers problems every time they have a Stability drop. I figure the reason it is low is because it must drop every time we drain them significantly, possibly through an evolved form of Pioneering Spirit that behaves semi-symbiotically with our CA. So they can just pop an Enforce Law and boom their Cent is back in the semi green area. More speculation -> Perhaps this civil warring comes from the advanced Pioneering Spirit trait's con. Much like our Quality of it's Own trait, they have a civil war malus that triggers if they hit negative stability when at low Centralization, or possibly high Cent as the province chiefs buck the yoke of the King.
Moving to our CA trait now.
1. When we take refugees we are taking Econ from the target polities.
-When we take refugees and land it is especially damaging to the target polities. This exchange is not necessarily 1 to 1.
2. If we take from multiple civs, we spread the damage between them. This can make low Econ drops basically become rounding errors, expressed only narratively.
3. This can trigger off of the initial Stability hit to use Restore Order and similar actions, making them very dangerous to use.
-It can also in some cases, as ruled by AN, trigger on a Stability drop caused by us draining them to negative Econ. A special case basically.
4. Speculation -> CA may give the drained civ Stability. We don't have a lot of evidence this way, except possibly in the continuation of the Hathatyns.
The Hathatyns:
Current evidence shows that they are probably suffering from a Pioneering Spirit traitline crash spiral.
This sounds like okay stability, but absolutely crap Centralization. The question is, they were obviously at massively negative stability in <High times> due to environmental collapse, so where did the Stability come from?
Before our initial drain, they were all basically borked. Then AN said this about them after it was pretty certain we would be draining them.
Which I take to indicate that we saved them with our drain. I see this as strong evidence that we do give Stability back, or somehow prop up a civ we drain from. I mean how else would they survive? On the other hand it is quite possible that them entering the Heroic Age was caused by them hitting lethal negative stability and now they are in a suspended state of do or die. Either they figure it out or they straight up collapse.
If we are giving them Stability then, it is probably +1 Stability for -X Econ for them. If it is 1 to 1, then it's +1 Stability for -2 Econ, the same as for us but signs reversed when you don't count the chance roll of CA turning the stability to 0.5.
Assuming that it is not 1 to 1, due to size differences and farming tech differences, and that they have Pioneering Spirit only, it probably went like this.
From -1 to -3 Stability or worse for them. PS triggers, maybe giving them +2 Econ for -2 Cent?
We drain -X Econ from them and give them at least +3 Stability, if we assume that in <Come the rains> they are at 0 Stability but some large amount of negative Centralization.
In all likelyhood looking at this I figure they are at something like -3 or more Centralization, and close to 0 Economy.
If we don't give Stability then they are stuck at somewhere like -3 Stability and 0 Econ, with -3 or more Centralization.
Vote closed good sir.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Note that CA allows us to pick compatible traits. Conquest might result in specifically gaining traits regardless of compatibility, because you're not assimilating refugees into your civilization, you're conquering them.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
We used to be limited to compatible traits, but no longer!
Do remember that the players are an alternate version of us not copies of us
They have a really bad habit of that. The negaverse thread when they realized what they had evolved Greater Good into required two mod interventions and Arthur Dent to show up and yell at everyone before it was unlocked.
I hate being ninja'ed.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Alternate site may have alternate rules mind you
Did anyone do a Negaverse about this?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Not that I am aware of.
Since when?
Our most recent trait pick was purely random because there were multiple compatible traits from each source - probably caused by us losing Nobility in Humility and thus gaining access to everything it blocked previously.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The only two dead priest omakes as far as i can tell are my "really really silly" recursive negaverse omake that's about my DP-verse self making an omake about how he thinks a stereotyped "Hill people"-SV finding out about the wall of bones would have gone, and @zamin 's "what if" negaverse omake about if they'd used our sanitation knowledge for biological warfare.(Incidentally @Academia Nut the link to Zamin's omake on your omake link post is broken)
Edit: Actually, given that someone just randomly liked it, have a better and sillier description of my already too silly omake:
""Look at how stupid and in awe of us Nega-Nega-SV must be" says Nega-SV me, cleverly gloating about how superior he and his fellow players are" says actual me, cleverly lampshading how I did the same thing a couple days ago and am doing the same to my Nega-SV self kind of
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Saying nice things = a warning.Alternate site may have alternate rules mind you
ah, informative quote.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*cries for TGG*
TGG would have been perfect for this coming couple of turns.
Nobility in Humility was good while it lasted. Didn't it mitigate crit-fails?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Nobility in Humility
True greatness is expressed in quiet dignity and humility. That one's nose is not stuck up and their head not in the ground can greatly prevent tripping, although perhaps their dreams will also be less grand.
Pros: Reduces the odds of critical failures, leaders feel less need to be ostentatious
Cons: Reduces the odds of producing hero units, people find new ways to express pride