Nobility in Humility
True greatness is expressed in quiet dignity and humility. That one's nose is not stuck up and their head not in the ground can greatly prevent tripping, although perhaps their dreams will also be less grand.
Pros: Reduces the odds of critical failures, leaders feel less need to be ostentatious
Cons: Reduces the odds of producing hero units, people find new ways to express pride
*sigh*

Well at least Honour of Elites can turn into Arete if we try for it. Maybe Arete will be less obstructive to Nobility in Humility.

Hmm!

You know these lines:

He actually felt a degree of irritation at it, because he could see that while it would hold for several generations, situations changed and someone would have to adjust it again and there was no guaranteed that they would be as adept as him, but he couldn't exactly make it a law that the king had to be at least as competent as him in administration to qualify for the job.

How would you even test that? It wasn't like you could test how to handle a law reform like an archery contest!
I think came from Honour of Elites. So that may be one benefit.
 
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Weeeeelllll... of the groups you know, there is one who can absolutely ruin the day of other groups within a generation or two if they got in their heads to do so. But yes, generally speaking you have yet to develop the capacity to destroy other groups. What you can do is apply sufficient pressure to drop their stability to the point where they fracture and the remnants are either more to your liking or can be dealt with as minor powers instead of major civilization structures.

It's not quite Econ Vampirism, but AN has mentioned purposefully destabilizing other polities so we can deal with the remnants.

This was way back in March around the time we were first working with Blackbirds.

Makes you wish we had an Intrigue stat, doesn't it?
 
Humility was an ok trait, but heroes are so useful that until we evolved it I don't think it was worthwhile. Note how it reduces crit-fails, not eliminates them.

TGG was awesome though. 10% of +2 Stability for every stability drop. That's a lot, 20% reduction in average stability reduction. And it gave us a very efficient stability-raising action in GS. Doubled Festivals will do for now, but once that bonus disappears we're gonna be in a bit of trouble...

edit: Side note- I haven't read the past ~25 pages aside from the GM posts. Anything important happen?
 
It's not quite Econ Vampirism, but AN has mentioned purposefully destabilizing other polities so we can deal with the remnants.

This was way back in March around the time we were first working with Blackbirds.

Makes you wish we had an Intrigue stat, doesn't it?

I prefer to screw them over with overbearing generosity and use intrigue to mostly steal tech and gain intel.
 
It pretty strongly implies that, to evolve Honour of Elites, we need good ways to test non-military skills.

For administration skills, building the Palace will probably work; "Better Idols" probably would have given us artistic competitions.
Scholarly skills might be incentiveized by the Library.

edit: Side note- I haven't read the past ~25 pages aside from the GM posts. Anything important happen?
Nope.


E:
It pretty strongly implies that, to evolve Honor of Elites, we need good ways to test non-military skills.

For administration skills, building the Palace will probably work; "Better Idols" probably would have given us artistic competitions.
Oh also Gon might be thinking up an Imperial Exam type megaproject.
 
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Oh yes, *mechanically* its probably more desirable
Mechanically it's a trait like Cosmopolitan Acceptance - Powerful benefits, but produces undesirable neighbor relationships.

Remember Cosmopolitan Acceptance is sending out prey signals to Martial states and threatens centralized powers.
Moloch Calls sends out Public Enemy signals to Just states and threatens neighbors since they are motivated to coerce slave provision.
It proves that different values produce different evolutions and that not all of those are desirable for us. We're the only ones likely to get values we don't want, because we're the only ones to draw values from other civs.

Edit: Unless that's a potential downside of being a conqueror...
We've seen a few other cases of trait migration. Cosmopolitan Acceptance vastly accelerates the process, but cultures naturally mix, the HKs got some traits off us, and the Hathatyn are clearly packing a Pioneering Spirit descendant.

-Speculation here: They seem more focused on mining and are very much not as good at farming as we are so I figure their Econ "value" is lower than ours, 1 point of our Econ is greater than 1 point of theirs.
I will point you to the Economy returns of copper and iron mines. Metalworking civilizations have high Econ value.

Anyway for trait possibilities of Center of Trade:
-Straight Evolution: Center of Trade -> Trade Junction

Center of Trade is the more primitive version, where your dominance of trade power derives from production of desired trade goods. The evolution of this is to leverage connectivity, as there is no difference trade wise whether you produce the goods, or whether the only producers of the goods have to go through you to get their goods there.

Mechanically it probably means we can leverage trade connections to count towards Trade Dominance in a good if the manufacturer has to go through us to get anywhere.

I don't think we are capable of evolving a CA trait unless we lose another trait however.

To clarify the below, Fusion In means Center of Trade is consumed to enhance our trait. Fusion Out means our trait is consumed by Center of Trade.

-Fusion In: Center of Trade + Divine Stewards -> Something to focus on growing/extracting natural luxury resources? Likely drops the bonus stat from trade dominance element, in exchange for a bonus to the output of Mines, Vineyards, and Snail Towers.

Unlikely fusion I think, unless we create a flurry of trade goods that we grow. Maybe if we looted poppy we could start the opium trade.

-Fusion In: Center of Trade + Cosmopolitan Acceptance -> Something to boost diplomatic annexation through directed trade and charity. Maximum vampire.

Potential fusion if we do more of the same assimilation we did to Northshore and Stonepen before.

-Fusion Out: Center of Trade + Symphony -> Something to coordinate and leverage trade power more effectively across allies, vassals and periphery states

Very unlikely since Symphony is a major core trait that's constantly invoked. It's more likely that this happens outside if someone imports Symphony.

-Fusion Out: Center of Trade + Quality of It's Own -> Something for flooding the market with raw production?

Somewhat unlikely since our trade dominance is based on regional resources, but if we picked up dominance in a manufactured good like pottery or art, then this might be a thing.

-Fusion In: Center of Trade + Honor of Elites -> Excellence does not just lie in martial and physical endeavors. Quality too is a form of excellence. Probably consumes Center of Trade to enhance innovation rolls in Arete.

Somewhat unlikely since our trade dominance is based on regional resources, but if we picked up dominance in a manufactured good like pottery or art, then this might be a thing.

-Fusion Out: Center of Trade + Honor of Elites -> Quantity of goods is one thing, but superior quality goods is another. Allows us to functionally create premium trade goods rather than compete in volume. Fine Pottery -> Fine Ymaryn Pottery for instance.

Somewhat unlikely since our trade dominance is based on regional resources, but if we picked up dominance in a manufactured good like pottery or art, then this might be a thing.
 
I will point you to the Economy returns of copper and iron mines. Metalworking civilizations have high Econ value.
Point, though I will say that I think they have Metalworking Copper and Good Farming, while we have Metalworking Copper + Iron and Excellent Farming so I think that they are not 1 to 1 with us on the whole. My specific point was that they are less skilled than us in farming so in that specific area, their Econ is worth less than ours. Instead they possibly made up for it with Metal.

Old response anyway, I really need more info on them if I want to accurately guess what the conversion is.
 
You make me angry sometimes, you talking about the Honor of Elites and Arete made me go back to reading Nietzsche... nice job...

*enters philosophic spiral*
 
You make me angry sometimes, you talking about the Honor of Elites and Arete made me go back to reading Nietzsche... nice job...

*enters philosophic spiral*
NO! My friend, think of the Boom Boom.

Imagine wrapping Nietzchian Philosophy in Gunpowder and lighting it off!
 
Point, though I will say that I think they have Metalworking Copper and Good Farming, while we have Metalworking Copper + Iron and Excellent Farming so I think that they are not 1 to 1 with us on the whole. My specific point was that they are less skilled than us in farming so in that specific area, their Econ is worth less than ours. Instead they possibly made up for it with Metal.

Old response anyway, I really need more info on them if I want to accurately guess what the conversion is.
We don't know a whole lot about them other than they have nice valley farms, gold , silver and copper mines, and fishing/dye
 
Honestly, the likelihood of CoT and CA merging seems low to me considering we used last turn to trigger CA to gain a dominance in Dyes. So the easy 'pursue the abilities of both at the same time' doesn't seem to work here. Possibly, we're getting into traits that are too advanced to evolve so easily.
 
Honestly, the likelihood of CoT and CA merging seems low to me considering we used last turn to trigger CA to gain a dominance in Dyes. So the easy 'pursue the abilities of both at the same time' doesn't seem to work here. Possibly, we're getting into traits that are too advanced to evolve so easily.

That sounds like using CA to do the job of CoT if you phrase it like that. Which would make me think of fusing CA and CoT.
 
That's basically what we just did last turn.

We took in a notable amount of our only competitor for dyes with CA, and gained dominance in dyes for CoT as a result.
So my confusion is how does that disincline their fusion? It seems to me like it would encourage the absorption of CoT into CA instead.
 
Honestly, the likelihood of CoT and CA merging seems low to me considering we used last turn to trigger CA to gain a dominance in Dyes. So the easy 'pursue the abilities of both at the same time' doesn't seem to work here. Possibly, we're getting into traits that are too advanced to evolve so easily.
Trait merges aren't equal, they're directional.

We're very likely to just lose the Center of Trade effects to give Cosmopolitan Acceptance an improvement to a sub feature if they fused really.

Compare past trait fusions:
-Protective Justice + Greater Good -> Greater Justice.

Greater Good almost entirely lost mechanically, becoming a discount to Protective Justice's stability costs in events.

-Shapers of the Land + Greater Good -> Divine Stewards

Greater Good lost entire. Divine Stewards gains ability to spend Stability for extra actions.

-Land Of Opportunity + Greater Good -> Cosmopolitan Acceptance

Greater Good almost lost entirely, becoming a discount to Cosmopolitan Acceptance's Stability costs.

-Sharing Circle + Pioneering Spirit -> Land of Opportunity

Pioneering Spirit inverted to exploit other civilizations' Pioneering Spirit allowing for Econ vampirism.
 
So my confusion is how does that disincline their fusion? It seems to me like it would encourage the absorption of CoT into CA instead.
That there is no good combination evolution of the two we are likely to easily gain, because we just saw a relatively simple case of what would normally merge traits.
We're very likely to just lose the Center of Trade effects to give Cosmopolitan Acceptance an improvement to a sub feature if they fused really.
Indeed, this seems to have been the case since we evolved sharing circle to LoO via the trait it was sniping from the WC...

Huh, we've only ever gotten combination traits via the Sharing Circle line. It's quite possible that the floating trait it generates is the only way to easily get combination traits.
 
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That there is no good combination evolution of the two we are likely to easily gain, because we just saw a relatively simple case of what would normally merge traits.

Indeed, this seems to have been the case since we evolved sharing circle to LoO via the trait it was sniping from the WC...

Huh, we've only ever gotten combination traits via the Sharing Circle line. It's quite possible that the floating trait it generates is the only way to easily get combination traits.
Looks that way to me. Any trait that is in the "CA linked" slot is preferentially set to fuse with social traits. It's what seems to have happened most frequently.
 
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That there is no good combination evolution of the two we are likely to easily gain, because we just saw a relatively simple case of what would normally merge traits.
It's possible we need to do it frequently.


The Center of trade line is much more valuable once we've got a currency established.
The establishment of Currency, especially if we are the first to do it, is gonna shake up everything and probably cause CoT to evolve.
 
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