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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
-Remember, ONLY Expand Economy will pay out Economy before the mid-turn.
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Not quite. Everything which does not specify "end of turn" or "next turn" will pay out before the mid-turn. This full list of this is:
{M} Black Soil
Expand Economy
{M} Mine (going by the Copper mine at least- possibly Iron is different)

veekie said:
Actually, no. Redhill, Black River and Southshore have no roads at all.

Think about that.
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Academia Nut said:
New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful
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I see no textual evidence to support that claim. Automatic trails are likely being built, though not to a degree that we would be happy with.

NotteBoy97 said:
Also when people say we can't do something since it is such an advanced thing that we can't possibly do in this era
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It's a shorthand way of saying "we lack the tools to understand that we lack the tools necessary". We really should look into The Library...
 
notgreat said:
Why would we expand econ manually? We'll be getting ~3-4 econ via Expansion policy, we don't really need more.

I'm planning on doing:
[] [Main] Iron Mine
[] [Secondary] Study Stars
[] [Secondary] Enforce Law
Province actions:
[Main] New Settlement
3 actions remain. Possible New Settlement (if a new location opens up), otherwise Expand Economy. Small chance of Expand Forests.

Alternatively if we're allowed to, do a [Main] Restore Order with the Iron Mine, same expected province actions.

Either way, we can grab iron immediately. As we've seen, Stability 0 or even temporarily dipping to -1 is not a big problem. It is a problem that needs to be solved, but Iron is more important.
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AN specifically said that econ expansion comes into play before a mid turn (which nothing else does), so having 6+ before the next mid turn will play into the narrative theme of "don't believe crazy people, but the comet may actually come anyways so it's best to prepare".

Why study stars and enforce law? The law I can kinda understand, but it'll actively prevent us from building trails when we expand new provinces...which will limit our logistics.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Just because they believe retarded things, and believe in magic that doesn't actually exist does not mean we should encourage it either
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Yes we should, because this 'magic' encourages studying the world for patterns. It institutionalizes the pursuit of knowledge and insight- if in unconventional ways. Very rarely, if ever- has a civilization as a whole been seriously impaired by having a tradition of prophecy.

Unless we get a crit, it's hard to 'skip over' looking at mystical motivations behind events and compositing a prediction out of signs, and refine problem-solving/pattern recognition/deductive and inductive reasoning without that fantastical lenses providing context for it all, even if said context is utterly baseless.

It's easy for me and you to decry these superstitions- to take the future for granted because we understand much more of it. The sun doesn't come up because loyal servants of a god sacrifice people to power him, it 'comes up' because the Earth orbits the Sun and rotates in such a way that any one habitable point on the Earth isn't always exposed to the sun. We know droughts occur due to ecological conditions, but these people don't, and a drought for us is an irritant, for these people it's a calamity.

Understanding our people's perspective on all of this is key- and you and quite a few others have demonstrated a lack of that here.
 
Karugus said:
Yes we should, because this 'magic' encourages studying the world for patterns. It institutionalizes the pursuit of knowledge and insight- if in unconventional ways. Very rarely, if ever- has a civilization as a whole been seriously impaired by having a tradition of prophecy.

Unless we get a crit, it's hard to 'skip over' looking at mystical motivations behind events and compositing a prediction out of signs, and refine problem-solving/pattern recognition/deductive and inductive reasoning without that fantastical lenses providing context for it all, even if said context is utterly baseless.

It's easy for me and you to decry these superstitions- to take the future for granted because we understand much more of it. The sun doesn't come up because loyal servants of a god sacrifice people to power him, it 'comes up' because the Earth orbits the Sun and rotates in such a way that any one habitable point on the Earth isn't always exposed to the sun. We know droughts occur due to ecological conditions, but these people don't, and a drought for us is an irritant, for these people it's a calamity.

Understanding our people's perspective on all of this is key- and you and quite a few others have demonstrated a lack of that here.
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Or...
We can just ignore the prophecies and lose nothing important since WE do know prophesy don't exist therefore WE can make the correct choice and ignore him?
 
I would wait building new trails until our Iron Mine is up and running so the new roads could be of better quality. I'm serious we need to establish that Iron Mine next turn stability be damned because it's only when people see its sheer utility and effectiveness will they start looking the other way.
 
Umi-san said:
Is it better to find more mine sites or establish a mine immediately?
The former means we can just do whatever stab action ppl pick, survey lands, and switch our policy to Progress or something. The latter means we should do a double main Stab + Mine, which has us keep expanding but that's tbh not the worst of things.

@hylas240 We'll be at Econ 2 + 2 + 1 = 5 at the start of next turn. If we stay on expansion we won't need more manual econ gain, so we should probably do Main PG + Study Stars + Survey Lands.
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An specifically said that econ expansion comes before a mid turn (which nothing else does), so it fits with the narrative synergy my action spread was going for.

BungieONI said:
Actually I have been thinking about this some and I think this could work out mechanically and the best narratively:

[] [Main] Build Iron Mine Bleeding Cliffs
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
Resource flow. +0 Econ and +1 Stability before Province actions. We also get Iron, when no one has anything better than brass. In general, it also radically increases the effectiveness of all our tools and we gain a major spike to productivity.
Provinces on Expansion will generate around 3 to 4 Econ. Possibly some Mysticism if they Main a Settlement. Any of the Econ generated here through Expand Econ will arrive before the mid turn see this post.

Narratively I think we all agree that the Ymaryn equate "The Spirits are angry = disaster. And they need to be appeased."? So, looking at this vote we open the mine and we do a grand sacrifice, either before or after is fine. By doing the grand sacrifice we directly appease the spirits for our trespass into the earth, in the Ymaryn's minds to the best of their ability. I say this is the best of their ability because it is the option with the highest amount of generated Stability in one go besides Restore Order and RoO is more about corruption and crime than appeasing the spirits.

We also come out ahead in stability by doing this. I figure even if a disaster strikes next mid turn we will have in most of our people's eyes appeased them in regards to the mine so they will think the disaster cannot be related to it and thus Observance implies that something else caused it. Indirect weakening of the Weapons of the Gods, which may not be officially counted but it does set up a narrative for it to be questioned. Observance will probably not proc good or bad in the disaster, at least not in connection to the Mine.

Doing this with a Main Proclaim Glory could also work, as it maxes our Legitimacy, which will be useful if a disaster comes. It's a tradeoff of do we want 3(max) Legitimacy and 0 Stability or 2 Legitimacy and 1 Stability. Narratively it also appeases people by reassuring them that the king and chiefs know what they are doing. This does not have the spiritual appeasement element of the Grand Sacrifice vote, so I see it as being overall less effective in setting up a good narrative to prepare for a disaster, if one is coming.


We could do this to:

[] [Main] Expand Economy
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2

This means we are at 2 Stability and 2 Legitimacy for the mid turn. I see Grand Sacrifice being our "Directly appease the spirits" option, which is why it is so effective and comforting. By appeasing them if the comet comes we cause some question to be made, but luckily it is one that can be directed since it is more honest confusion and fear that would be behind the uproar. Observance could be good or bad here, it varies if ignore means his prophecy gets forgotten or it gets out. Might even be a roll there.
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Considering last turn Grand Sacrifice (and all the stability boosters besides proclaim glory) were unavailable, I doubt we'll be able to do a sacrifice.
 
Ghostdevil said:
We can just ignore the prophecies and lose nothing important since WE do know prophesy don't exist therefore we can make the correct choice and ignore him?
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No.

Our shamans do not have our background knowledge.

As such, if they ignore the prophecies, it will not be for our reasons - it will be for theirs.

And their knowledge doesn't give them a scientific basis to dismiss prophecies, so we're left with the non-scientific ones.
 
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hylas240 said:
An specifically said that econ expansion comes before a mid turn (which nothing else does), so it fits with the narrative synergy my action spread was going for.


Considering last turn Grand Sacrifice (and all the stability boosters besides proclaim glory) were unavailable, I doubt we'll be able to do a sacrifice.
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...except stated it won't have narrative synergy?
 
hylas240 said:
An specifically said that econ expansion comes before a mid turn (which nothing else does), so it fits with the narrative synergy my action spread was going for.


Considering last turn Grand Sacrifice (and all the stability boosters besides proclaim glory) were unavailable, I doubt we'll be able to do a sacrifice.
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I do believe that that was a copy error on AN's part because there is no reason for them to be blocked off.

IF it is corrected next turn, how about it?
 
Ok, since AN clarified that my action spread didn't have much synergy, I guess i'll have to come up with something else...
 
Candesce said:
As such, if they ignore the prophecies, it will not be for our reasons - it will be for theirs.
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Academia Nut said:
[] This man is sick, care for him but ignore his ramblings (???)
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probably the fact that he's sick due to the extra spirit in his head

SpeckofStardust said:
Which of course would have the same sort of problem as so many people stated killing the guy would thought of Iron would do, teaches people to not accept new ideas.
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to not accept new ideas from someone whose head was smashed open and had surgery performed on him poorly....
 
NotteBoy97 said:
I really don't care if other cultures had prophecy and would really like for the Ymaryn to not think that mad people babbling is them predicting the future rather than the sad medical issue it is. Like when people use real world examples of how civilizations worked I always take it with a pinch of salt since other cultures of this time took slaves yet I don't think anyone here really likes how close our half-exhiles are slowly becoming a slave cast. Also when people say we can't do something since it is such an advanced thing that we can't possibly do in this era I think how we just skipped the copper age by getting iron and laugh.
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Note that ironworking was gained through incredible luck, abiet with the help of CA.

It's more that the Ymaryn don't have the toolkits or awareness to address those kind of social issues.
 
hylas240 said:
Why study stars and enforce law? The law I can kinda understand, but it'll actively prevent us from building trails when we expand new provinces...which will limit our logistics.
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Law/trails: every time we expand to a new province we reduce centralization such that we can build new trails if we want. We're in a reasonable position now in terms of trails, our next province should probably come with a New Trails attached though.

Study Stars:
Mechanical- We're a bit low on Mysticism, and despite the claimed "tiny chance" of insights it's given us a nice boost on almost half the turns we took it. While insights might be rare, getting knowledge about another comet or something like that would be really nice.
Narrative - our people believe that Iron is the Weapons of the Gods of the Sky. Checking in on them to see how they respond to our possible hubris is probably a good idea. Either they do nothing (they didn't notice - more iron is fine) or they do (and we at least are forewarned instead of whatever disaster happening unexpectedly)
 
Ghostdevil said:
We can just ignore the prophecies and lose nothing important since WE do know prophesy don't exist therefore WE can make the correct choice and ignore him?
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But our people don't, and if they feel something validates that prophecy (and anything could) than obviously it's the fault of the government. I do not give a flying fuck what WE believe. I don't care if you think the Earth is flat and that vaccines make kids retarded- I care about what the Ymaryn believe, and how they'll contextualize this. To them, this is potentially ignoring blatant cause and effect, and to deny the validity of said prophecy in the face of such evidence might garner the same disregard as creationists might hold from me or you. Your comments only illustrate my point by only considering the thread's stance and consensus on the matter when it is in fact the least important factor in all of this.
Kiba said:
The Ymaryn got where they are because they are guided by a very wise and knowledgable group of spirits. Granted, we sometime fucked up, but the Ymaryn have yet to experienced famine nor civil strife.
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*facepalm*

My point is that yes, the Ymaryn are incredibly advanced for their time period and have an impressive understanding of the world. But they don't have any real grounding in why that happens. They know soil erosion happens due to deforestation due to trees dying of Blight- but they don't understand why tree blight is a thing. they know the demons of disease are small and aim to reproduce, but they don't understand that the disease is not some malicious force that can be directed and cast at one another.
 
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