[X] Heap tribute upon their chief and promise more (-5 Diplomacy, -1 Diplomacy/turn until next war or collapse of nomad tribe, -1 Prestige)
[X] Resettle large numbers (3 Econ and Martial transferred)


In completely unsurprising news, as soon as next leader unifies the tribes, Stallions are utterly boned and keeping them from dying is nothing more than sunk costs.
And we can regain Diplomacy pretty fast, and the chief will die in several generations.
It was a unanimous keep fighting and full support.


Update: So Much Salt.

That's the Nomad wargoal probably.
The Stallion Tribes are important and worth protecting.

But if their Hero survives the first turn of Offense, what do we plan to do on turn 2? We'd have no Economy to rebuild the Martial. Our Martial would be damaged as well from the war commitment. The Stallion Tribes would be still facing the Nomads bottomless reserves. If they fall, the North would if we go Offense, we wouldn't have the Martial to contest it after that.

Also, for claims that a Main + Secondary cannot stall the horde? The thing is, the Nomads have limited ability to concentrate force compared to us. Pack enough tribes close enough and they'd graze the land bare within the year. This is a situation where they cannot leverage their full numbers like we can.

Now, normally what they'd do is raid you so hard that you are forced to retreat to your settlements, and then they'd go past you. But our fortified March settlements on rivers means they cannot break the settlements directly, not while they have supply from the coast by boat. Our own chariots will be able to raid from the settlements on their rear lines, endangering their supply and creating a flanking strike if they take the risk to push through to Stonepen and Northshore.

It'd be ruinous, but we don't need to commit nearly as much to hold the line as to see them off. They have deep reserves, but not much time. Big catastrophic clashes that kills entire raids can be absorbed by them. If you send out 4 Main War Missions into them, against their 2 Main War Missions and win, they'd come back next turn with 2 more, and more after that, but you won't have the Martial to win by the second and third hits.
I point you to this post I made. It gives support to the idea that we can support two or more turns in Offense. Please read and give me your thoughts.
 
Update: So Much Salt.

That's the Nomad wargoal probably.
The Stallion Tribes are important and worth protecting.

But if their Hero survives the first turn of Offense, what do we plan to do on turn 2? We'd have no Economy to rebuild the Martial. Our Martial would be damaged as well from the war commitment. The Stallion Tribes would be still facing the Nomads bottomless reserves. If they fall, the North would if we go Offense, we wouldn't have the Martial to contest it after that.

Also, for claims that a Main + Secondary cannot stall the horde? The thing is, the Nomads have limited ability to concentrate force compared to us. Pack enough tribes close enough and they'd graze the land bare within the year. This is a situation where they cannot leverage their full numbers like we can.

Now, normally what they'd do is raid you so hard that you are forced to retreat to your settlements, and then they'd go past you. But our fortified March settlements on rivers means they cannot break the settlements directly, not while they have supply from the coast by boat. Our own chariots will be able to raid from the settlements on their rear lines, endangering their supply and creating a flanking strike if they take the risk to push through to Stonepen and Northshore.

It'd be ruinous, but we don't need to commit nearly as much to hold the line as to see them off. They have deep reserves, but not much time. Big catastrophic clashes that kills entire raids can be absorbed by them. If you send out 4 Main War Missions into them, against their 2 Main War Missions and win, they'd come back next turn with 2 more, and more after that, but you won't have the Martial to win by the second and third hits.
Never mind it seems you already read it.

What are your thoughts?
 
Their honor value about oaths
Do they have Word as Bond? I think that's just speculation. If not, citation please.
the loss of ongoing tribute
Dramatically less profitable than actually achieving their stated aims: monopolizing a critical trade route and taking the march to ensure their safety.
the reputational effects on future conquests
They're nomads. Conquesting is a rare behavior.
the threat of motivated and spiritually sanctioned retribution
So... he burns one of our provinces and we respond by giving him money. And he's supposed to be scared that if he burns more we'll... give him even more money? Paying people to not have to fight doesn't make people scared to fight you. Quite the opposite.
the opportunity to get most of the gains of conquest without the costs while freeing how military up for additional conquests
Again, Nomads don't usually conquer. This general and our civilization are a special case. Sure, it would free up military for further raiding, but this guys longer sighted than that. The Stallion March would set up those nomads for stability and prosperity for centuries, assuming they don't get WAAAGHed off it by someone else.
the various other reasons tribute relationships have existed throughout history.
Given that none of the listed ones stand up to scrutiny, I doubt the ones in the etc. will.
Most people don't actually hold and act on counterproductive multigenerational genocidal grudges. As long as his people are united, fighting him is an economically insane decision compared to just buying him off, and like every other emperor he assumes that his empire is going to last forever. Thinking that the people are going to spend 70 years single-mindedly working so their great-grandchildren can take obsessive revenge on his great-grandchildren despite it being worse for everybody is not nearly as obvious as you make it out to be.

He's being exceptionally rational; you're strawmanning by pretending the argument is that he's doing this for a grudge. Noone has been saying that.

He wants a monopoly position on trade, and he wants the positional advantage of the march. Both of those will strongly outweigh tribute in the long run.
 
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[X] Heap tribute upon their chief and promise more (-5 Diplomacy, -1 Diplomacy/turn until next war or collapse of nomad tribe, -1 Prestige)
[X] Resettle large numbers (3 Econ and Martial transferred)


In completely unsurprising news, as soon as next leader unifies the tribes, Stallions are utterly boned and keeping them from dying is nothing more than sunk costs.
And we can regain Diplomacy pretty fast, and the chief will die in several generations.
Well yeah, they settled on open steppes. It was just a matter of time.

They're very useful in such scenarios by taking damage for us. Much easier to deal with sending them food and dudes than to actually be forced to engage directly.

But I doubt they'd fall next turn. Just that its a possibility that they'd fold over the turn after that without further support...and again, our backline is completely exposed at present.
 
Fey mood
[X] Keep Fighting
[X] Resettle large numbers (3 Econ and Martial transferred)

"I do not recall distinctly when it began, but it was months ago. The general tension was horrible. To a season of political and social upheaval was added a strange and brooding apprehension of hideous physical danger; a danger widespread and all-embracing, such a danger as may be imagined only in the most terrible phantasms of the night. I recall that the people went about with pale and worried faces, and whispered warnings and prophecies which no one dared consciously repeat or acknowledge to himself that he had heard. A sense of monstrous guilt was upon the land, and out of the abysses between the stars swept chill currents that made men shiver in dark and lonely places. There was a daemoniac alteration in the sequence of the seasons—the autumn heat lingered fearsomely, and everyone felt that the world and perhaps the universe had passed from the control of known gods or forces to that of gods or forces which were unknown." - "Nyarlathotep", by H.P. Lovecraft

As news of the terrible losses swept path and forth across the Lands of the People and the king and the chiefs, a terrible and fey mood seized upon the People. Their compatriots suffered in the north, and what was to be done? The rest of chiefs and shamans was perturbed, a terrible guilt weighing upon them, especially those who called for capitulation. Why should they cease fighting for their homes? Why should they be the ones shamed and embarrassed for having the temerity to stand up for themselves, for defending themselves from aggression they in no way invited?

Something snapped within them. As one the People called out that the king must keep fighting, must offer up as much support as was in his power to do so. Young men begged to be allowed to go north to fight or even just repair the pillaged farms, and while many were turned away, a sense of something greater buoyed the People, driving them onward. A great rope that stretched from lowliest half-exile to the king drew taut and vibrated like a bowstring ready to fire.

New Honour Code Slot Opened Up!
New Honour Code Developed!

Lord's Loyalty
The ties between the People bind tight, and while this increases the obligations of the superior, it also makes the subordinate more likely to listen.
Pros: +1 Subordinate States, subordinate states less likely to break away
Cons: Minimum force commitment in defence of subordinates and allies increased one step, worse consequences for failure to assist

Policy Switched to Offence

Once more chariot archers swept out from the hills, and this time when they joined up with the depleted but reinforced warriors of the Stallions they had murder on their minds. To them this was no longer simply repulsing raids or even war, but the excising of a canker from a blighted tree. And for the nomads, clearly thinking that the People were on the back foot and nearing depletion of will and warriors, they were caught completely off guard by this sudden surge of resistance, and an entire tribe camped out by Stallionpen to keep the People within trapped had the majority of their male population put to the mace. Still though the Stallions suffered, their warriors milled down once more to almost nothing.

And then the tribes simply fell back one day. Whether their new king had decided that something else was more important or he wanted to fade away to spring back up later or he died and those under him fragmented none could say, just that the tribes faded back into the endless seas of grass.

Legacy Gained!
Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads

And then... and then the People just held their breath. Should they chase into the steppe to finish this, or wait to see if the monster came back, or...?

Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Art
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

Black Soil - Production is now regular and huge amounts of trash are turned to black soil every year, but there's always room for more production [Shapers] [King]
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Econ next turn, additional effects
* M: +1 Econ, additional effects
* used 2 times

Build Chariots - Once the domain of rich nomad chieftains, there is now enough copper to make construction of this new design practical for the People and deployable on a large scale. Used: 4 times
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Martial
*M: -2 Econ, +4 Martial, other effects

Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Redhills and Blackmouth heavily walled; Redshore, Northshore, and Stonepen capitals walled; Northshore and Stonepen partially walled elsewhere)
* S: -1 Econ, minor walls
* M: -1 Econ, major walls

Build Watchtowers - Stone and brick towers for warriors to sit in and scan the horizon for trouble, these towers can help stave off raids and improve response against attacks. (Northern provinces have many towers, Redhills has some)
*S: -1 Econ, some watchtowers
*M: -1 Econ, many watchtowers

Change Policy - Adjust the current Policy to one better fitting the situation
*S: Change Policy to one of the available ones listed below
Balanced - Takes whatever actions seem reasonable. Expand Economy is considered a Policy action for interaction with other effects
Defence - Builds walls and watchtowers
Expansion - Builds new settlements, expands economy, expands forests, and can even create new provinces
Infrastructure - Extended projects
Megaproject Support - Provinces can spend actions in support of a megaproject
Offence - Can recruit warriors and specialists, can send war actions against declared enemies
Progress - Takes studying actions and art patronage
Restoration - Takes stability improving actions
Spirits - Expands Holy Sites
Trade - Sends out trade missions, produce art and luxuries

Enforce Law - The king is a servant of the law, and he can use the army to remind people of that fact
* S: 0 to 1 Stability, +1-3 Centralization
* M: 0 to 1 Stability, greater odds of stability gain, +2-3 Centralization
* the more settlements with walls outside of the capital, particularly large walls, the less effective this action is

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
* +1 Econ, potential additional effects
* 12 uses remain before requiring new territory

Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort
* S: -1 Econ, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled
* M: -1 Econ, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory

Expand Holy Sites - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom have accumulated interesting objects and tellers of stories, but they could be made a bit better
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Mysticism, +1 Art, potential additional effects

Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, potential additional effects

Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Martial, potential additional effects

Found Colony - When a province gets too distant, sometimes it is best to grant it additional autonomy so that they can get down to the business of working the land and gathering resources without needing to talk to the king about every little thing. Current Target: West of Black River
*M: -4 Econ, -2 Martial, founds colony to produce raw resources

Found March - Sometimes you need an extra buffer between you and hostile powers, or a place to stash excess warriors. Current Target: North-East
*M: -5 Martial, -2 Econ, founds march to take independent martial actions

Found Trading Post - When doing long distance trading, sometimes having your own infrastructure in place at the other end can be quite useful. Current Target: Greenshore River Mouth (Metal Workers)
*M: -5 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Martial, founds trading post to generate Diplomacy

Grand Sacrifice - Communal sacrifice is a great way to bring the People together, and to also even out class distinctions. NOTE: Because the People do not use human sacrifice, the Econ costs are especially harsh. Max Stability: Legitimacy
*S: -2 Econ, +1 Stability
*M: -3 Econ, +2 Stability


Integrate March - Better communications and administration means that the Stallion Tribes can be integrated into the People more fully, transitioning from a March to a province
*M: -6 Diplomacy, gain Econ and Martial from integrating March

Improve Annual Festival - A festival for every season, but their expansion can help put the People at ease and teach good practices.
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects
* 2M: -3 Econ, +1 Stability, +3 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1


More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial more Blackbirds
* M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +2 Martial, many more Blackbirds, additional effects

More Carrion Eaters - Keepers of sacred and profane knowledge, the Carrion Eaters thread a dangerous path but bring valuable knowledge for treating wounds and inspiring courage, greatly bolstering the morale of warriors by ensuring them that their companions are not doomed if they fall. More could prove useful.
*S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, more Carrion Eaters
*M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +2 Martial, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects

More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
* S: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation;
* used 4 times

New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: western Blackriver, northern Blackriver, eastern Redhills, Bleeding Cliff in Redshore
* S: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken
* M: +1 Econ and +1 Mysticism end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken

New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

Proclaim Glory - A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions; modified by Diplomacy skill
* S: -2 Art, +1 Legitimacy
* M: -3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
* Max Stability: Legitimacy

Restoration of Order - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. Max Stability: 0 or Legitimacy, whichever is lower
* S: Gain -1 to 2 Stability
* M: Roll twice, take best result
* modified by Administrative skill


Sailing Mission - The new boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Salt Gift - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated
*M: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation

Study Forests - The holy site within the sacred forest is the repository of lore on the forests and the things within them, but could the shamans learn more? 1 Use
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Health - What secrets of nature can be used to improve the health of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Metal - Iron and copper, gold and silver, what other secrets are hidden in metal and stone?
* S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights

Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully? 7 Uses, 0/4 Uses in a Row
*S: +1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
Cannot be used as a Main action

Study Tailings - A few generations of copper mining has built up a number of tailings pits, might there be any new insights within?
*S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights

Support Subordinate - Send resources over to a subordinate state to help prop them up.
*S: Transfer 1 Econ and Martial
*M: Transfer 2 Econ and Martial

Survey Lands - Foreigners have discovered strange materials within their lands, are these materials perhaps also found within the lands of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success; used 1 time

Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -1 Diplo, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of of turn;
* M: -1 Diplo, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of turn, +1-2 Diplo next turn

War Mission - You can send raiding parties against groups that have declared themselves hostile. Can only declare war if you have a valid casus belli (currently only if someone declares war first)
* S: Potential loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial and Diplo
* M: Probable loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial, Diplo, and Econ, always has a mid-turn decision point

Extended Projects- Extended Projects are major infrastructure projects that take more than a single Main action to complete but aren't as all consuming as megaprojects
Saltern - Need to find a new location through Survey actions or have more advanced technology to expand the existing saltern
Aqueduct - Redshore (0/12), Lower Valleyhome (0/6), Stonepen (0/8), Blackmouth (0/12), Sacred Forest (0/6), Redhills (0/8). Each {S} committed consumes 2 Econ for 2 Progress. Completion adds +4 Econ Expansion and can allow for the formation of another True City

Reminder: 2 {S} applied to the same project = 1 {M}
Additionally: 2 Mains may have non-linear effects

Mega-Projects - Mega-Projects can require many generations to complete, take an unknown amount of time to do so, and drain Econ while active, but can produce massive benefits once complete. Once chosen, the occupy the Main Focus slot until either completed or stopped early. Early stopping once started does not refund any of the investments and increases social strife. To reduce confusion, mega-projects are not listed as part of the voting project list and must be "written-in".
Great Dam - The river can run wild and dangerous when the rains come strong, but could it not be controlled by the same principles by which the water on the hills is channelled and contained, merely on a larger scale? [Stewards][King] (4-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
The Library - The People need to store ideas, not records [Observance] [King] (4-6? Action commitment, -1 Mysticism and -1 Art per action, 2 Econ total commitment)
Place to the Stars - The shamans have noticed deeper patterns among the stars than they ever imagined, and setting up long term memories of where things should be could be intensely useful, if also labour intensive to get sufficiently durable markers in place [King] (6-8? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, some Mysticism commitment)

[Stewards] special kicker: Pay 1 Stability to double the effort on a megaproject action, consuming twice the required per turn resources but advancing the job faster. If taking a second main action on a megaproject, requires additional Stability payment to double that as well.
One [Main] action and two [Seconday] actions available. Status of hostile Northern Nomad tribes currently unknown

[] Art Patronage
[] Black Soil
[] Build Chariots
[] Build Wall
[] Build Watchtowers
[] Change Policy
[] Enforce Law
[] Expand Economy
[] Expand Forests
[] Expand Holy Sites
[] Expand Snail Cultivation
[] Expand Warriors
[] Found Colony
[] Found March
[] Found Trading Post
[] Grand Sacrifice
[]Integrate March
[] Improve Annual Festival
[] More Blackbirds
[] More Carrion Eaters
[] More Boats
[] New Settlement
[] New Trails
[] Proclaim Glory
[] Restore Order
[] Sailing Mission
[] Salt Gift
[] Study Forests
[] Study Health
[] Study Metal
[] Study Stars
[] Study Tailings
[] Survey Lands
[] Support Subordinate
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Hathatyn, Xohyssiri, Thunder Horse, Into the Wild
[] War Mission
-Target Options: Northern Nomads

Provinces for Projects: Valleyhome, Redshore, Stonepen, Sacred Forest, Northshore, Blackriver, Redhills, Southshore
Major Holy Sites: Rainbow Trail, Sacred Forest, Holy Sea, Horse Valley, White Circle, Warrior's Rest, Star Mirror, Sunrise Grove, Skyforest
 
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But I doubt they'd fall next turn. Just that its a possibility that they'd fold over the turn after that without further support...and again, our backline is completely exposed at present.
You doubt it, but your reasons are purely speculative. No offense, but I don't want to bet the march on that speculation. We need war missions this turn.
 
They pulled back?

A possible reason is that it could be a chance for them to ambush us if we pursue them.
 
Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads

hahahahahahaaaaa!! I dub thee... Crow NOMADBANE!!!
 
Relevant info:

Civilization Stats

General
Diplomacy 14 (max, overflowing) [+1 Art]
Economy 4
Martial 6

Stability
Stability 0 (neutral)
Legitimacy 2 (dented)

Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 6

Cultural
Art 2
Mysticism 2
Prestige 9
Found Colony - When a province gets too distant, sometimes it is best to grant it additional autonomy so that they can get down to the business of working the land and gathering resources without needing to talk to the king about every little thing. Current Target: West of Black River
*M: -4 Econ, -2 Martial, founds colony to produce raw resources

Found March - Sometimes you need an extra buffer between you and hostile powers, or a place to stash excess warriors. Current Target: North-East
*M: -5 Martial, -2 Econ, founds march to take independent martial actions

Found Trading Post - When doing long distance trading, sometimes having your own infrastructure in place at the other end can be quite useful. Current Target: Greenshore River Mouth (Metal Workers)
*M: -5 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Martial, founds trading post to generate Diplomacy

Integrate March - Better communications and administration means that the Stallion Tribes can be integrated into the People more fully, transitioning from a March to a province
*M: -6 Diplomacy, gain Econ and Martial from integrating March

Study Tailings - A few generations of copper mining has built up a number of tailings pits, might there be any new insights within?
*S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights
 
Wohoo they pulled back fuck yes now we can integrate the march

[x] [Main] Integrate March
[x] [Secondary] Proclaim glory
[x] [Secondary] New Settlement-Bleeding Cliff

We need to recover and unite for now to better raise our martial for round 2
 
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OK. This turn we need to:

  1. Complete an iron dev step.
  2. Rebuild either Econ or Martial, preferably both, so that we can respond to any tricks.
  3. Maybe reassign policy? We only have 6 martial; I'd rather not go adventuring.
 
hahahhahahahahhahaahahhahahahahahhahahahha!!! *continued maniacal Laughter*
Get fucked nomads!
 
Wohoo they pulled back fuck yes now we can integrate the march

[x] [Main] Integrate March
[x] [Secondary] Proclaim glory
[x] [Secondary] New Settlement-Red Cliff

We need to recover and unite for now to better rase our martial for round 2
Dude, the entire point of the march is to take defensive war actions on our behalf against what amounts to an infinite supply of eternal enemies. Integrating just forces us to bear the burden again.
 
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