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Paths of Civilization

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Talking about cement i think bumping art would be a good guess, because as we know glazing is made by mixing another ingredient on the pottery to make it harder, so we only need a potter mixing crushed oysters on the formula and we would get somenthin similar to slaked-lime cement, and leting it rest (winch is part of producing artesanal pottery) and when coming back he would se it hardened like a stone.
 
@Academia Nut If we start conquering the lowlands as soon as we get iron weapons and tools online, how long would it take for civs to copy our iron tech (unless they don't have a chance in the first place?)?
 
Malevolo said:
Talking about cement i think bumping art would be a good guess, because as we know glazing is made by mixing another ingredient on the pottery to make it harder, so we only need a potter mixing crushed oysters on the formula and we would get somenthin similar to slaked-lime cement, and leting it rest (winch is part of producing artesanal pottery) and when coming back he would se it hardened like a stone.
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You know what yeah. Cement seems part of the Pottery tree.

So actions that produce innovations in that direction are:

Expand Snails. Small. It is only a tangential connection.
Art Patronage Main. Moderate, random innovation in all art techs are possible but it could possibly be focused.

Building Walls and Towers at the same time in my mind inclines the Art Patronage to push that way.
Aqueduct does it similar and might actually be better because it is more intensive building.


hylas240 said:
@Academia Nut If we start conquering the lowlands as soon as we get iron weapons and tools online, how long would it take for civs to copy our iron tech (unless they don't have a chance in the first place?)?
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I doubt he's gonna give us a straight answer on that one sadly. However, the civs around us are missing a crucial piece of knowledge. That the red rock is star metal. Without this they cannot even start, not even the Metal Workers who have the other pieces of the puzzle.

I made an estimate once where I said it would take twenty plus turns for them to figure it out and maybe fifteen for the Metal Workers. They could however loot them off of our warriors bodies and reforge them. Basically they'd be mining Ymaryn-ite. But that is going to ridiculously limit their supply and it also seems weird for them to try and reforge it since it is suppose to be this super metal from the gods.
 
hylas240 said:
@Academia Nut If we start conquering the lowlands as soon as we get iron weapons and tools online, how long would it take for civs to copy our iron tech (unless they don't have a chance in the first place?)?
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Ideally I'd like to make it a nasty surprise.

First drive off the nomads with all non-iron weapons, then steadily build up a stockpile of weapons and armor for all warriors.

And then when the Thunder Speaker comes knocking we crush them. :rage::rage::rage:

EDIT:

Us: "Hey, you know your sacred star axe that we made you? Now we've got the same type of weapon for pretty much all of our warriors."

Thunder Speaker: :cry::cry::cry:

Us: "That's okay, we've got our own supply of salt."
 
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Duesal said:
Ideally I'd like to make it a nasty surprise.

First drive off the nomads with all non-iron weapons, then steadily build up a stockpile of weapons and armor for all warriors.

And then when the Thunder Speaker comes knocking we crush them. :rage::rage::rage:
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Please! Respect the traditions, we don't crush them... we spike them on the head and bury them on a communal grave without markings.
 
Karugus said:
I'm curious is how the jump to iron without bronze will affect how we make tools and martial implements. Iron tipped spear and arrow tips are obvious- but the concept of a sword probably doesn't exist for us. We might come up with metal daggers as implements of war, but chances are the axe is going to be our go to military sidearm until another polity develops at least bronze working. Maybe maces, but those benefit less from iron than edged weapons from my understanding. We'll probably see some sort of poleaxe too considering our woodworking and metalworking and our twin needs of defeating relatively heavily armored warriors and chariots. I think I mentioned specifically dagger-axes/jis before but a two handed weapon makes sense when you've got a massive advantage in terms of armor and are dealing with relatively massive foes (a chariot has a lot of mass behind it after all)

As for armor, we'd probably talking about something like lamellar/splint/coat of sown iron plates rather than anything really complex. We definitely aren't capable of something complex like chainmail, and scales would probably be too complex for us- but simple cuirasses should be feasible.

It's really exciting to think about what happens when you give a relatively complex and sophisticated culture iron to play with when they don't have all that institutional experience working bronze. It's fascinating from an anthropological standpoint and I trust AN to explore it.

Not necessarily, we've got both the know how to cultivate and maintain huge expansive forests as well as the cultural values that will prevent over harvesting them. If we simply expand forests regularly, especially into the lowlands- then we'll probably be one of the few civilizations that can maintain a high level of charcoal output.
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More importantly than weapons, we get self polishing plows! And harrows! This will increase per capita productivity significantly.
 
BungieONI said:
I doubt he's gonna give us a straight answer on that one sadly. However, the civs around us are missing a crucial piece of knowledge. That the red rock is star metal. Without this they cannot even start, not even the Metal Workers who have the other pieces of the puzzle.
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Keeping it a secret will be really irritating. We might have to start exporting hematite as a dye or something in order to supply a reason for mining it.
 
Umi-san said:
Keeping it a secret will be really irritating. We might have to start exporting hematite as a dye or something in order to supply a reason for mining it.
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I'm not counting on keeping it secret for long--just for long enough for us to build up a good infrastructure and large stockpile of iron.

All I want is a horrible surprise for anyone who fucks with us.
 
Umi-san said:
Keeping it a secret will be really irritating. We might have to start exporting hematite as a dye or something in order to supply a reason for mining it.
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To be honest, at this point in history I think any attempts to suppress information will fail - we just don't have that level of control. It'll be hard for them to figure it out from us, but any attempts to misdirect like that are liable to make things worse.
 
BungieONI said:
  • Poleaxes are an axe on a spear. They do counter chariots since you can kill the horses or brace yourself and spit the driver. Disadvantage in close quarters but an axe like a tomahawk or the Vikings half axe as a sidearm like you said is life saving. Also a polearm like a pike or halberd is amazing at countering cavalry charges.
  • Dagger axes or ji are some really cool thoughts. If you tilt your head and squint you could almost see them as a rotated sickle.
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A lot of the downsides of polearms can be overcome by formation fighting. As for iron shields, we might use iron to reinforce shields- particularly the edging and the boss, but there's no real need for solid iron or even iron coated shield by this time. As for why I doubt we'll be big on shield use for a while, is because even crude iron splint maille is going to be incredibly hard to breach. It's basically only going to be things like demon clubs that have a reliable chance of killing such a warrior- and trying to block something like that with a shield is asking for a broken arm.

You see it in the early Renaissance, as armour technology was comparably more advanced, shields were abandoned for the most part in favor of more powerful and long ranged two-handed weapons. We're obviously not at the level of plate armour, but even a crude cuirass with a padded gambeson would be incredibly powerful by comparison.
BungieONI said:
Armor is going to be simple primitive leather backed Iron plates or Studded leather.
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leather backed by iron plates is essentially a coat of plates/splint maille.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
To be honest, at this point in history I think any attempts to suppress information will fail - we just don't have that level of control. It'll be hard for them to figure it out from us, but any attempts to misdirect like that are liable to make things worse.
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If anyone asks, just say that they're weapons of the gods. :V
 
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Umi-san said:
Keeping it a secret will be really irritating. We might have to start exporting hematite as a dye or something in order to supply a reason for mining it.
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Yeeeeaaaaaaahhh... New Headache!

At least our people are not going to just tell someone, what with the combo of Debilitating Belief + Protective Justice. These things are cursed and passing curses is not something we do.

So our folks are not gonna say "This red rock is what makes star metal." Nevermind the actual process.

So to figure it out without trading items of iron, and why would we sell them, a polity will need a few things to get it from us.

One, a spy unit to watch us doing the process. This will not give them everything, see us and the MW and copper.

Two, an actual motivation to figure it out. This might actually be dis-inclined because of the sheer mystic nature of what this stuff represents. Tread carefully around the spirits and all that.

Three, and one of the Key Pieces: they need to make the connection that this red rock is star metal ore. We had this through pure mad luck. ANyone else would need to be told by us, or if they are the MW do vigorous exploring and surveying and general poking.

Four, the Second Key Piece: they need Refractory Materials. The MW have this, the ETH might have this and the Xohyssiri are probably close to developing it on their own, but no one else has an inkling to it.


Karugus said:
A lot of the downsides of polearms can be overcome by formation fighting. As for iron shields, we might use iron to reinforce shields- particularly the edging and the boss, but there's no real need for solid iron or even iron coated shield by this time. As for why I doubt we'll be big on shield use for a while, is because even crude iron splint maille is going to be incredibly hard to breach. It's basically only going to be things like demon clubs that have a reliable chance of killing such a warrior- and trying to block something like that with a shield is asking for a broken arm.

You see it in the early Renaissance, as armour technology was comparably more advanced, shields were abandoned for the most part in favor of more powerful and long ranged two-handed weapons. We're obviously not at the level of plate armour, but even a crude cuirass with a padded gambeson would be incredibly powerful by comparison.

leather backed by iron plates is essentially a coat of plates/splint maille.
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Ahh. Thanks Karu.
 
BungieONI said:
Yeeeeaaaaaaahhh... New Headache!

At least our people are not going to just tell someone, what with the combo of Debilitating Belief + Protective Justice. These things are cursed and passing curses is not something we do.

So our folks are not gonna say "This red rock is what makes star metal." Nevermind the actual process.

So to figure it out without trading items of iron, and why would we sell them, a polity will need a few things to get it from us.

One, a spy unit to watch us doing the process. This will not give them everything, see us and the MW and copper.

Two, an actual motivation to figure it out. This might actually be dis-inclined because of the sheer mystic nature of what this stuff represents. Tread carefully around the spirits and all that.

Three, and one of the Key Pieces: they need to make the connection that this red rock is star metal ore. We had this through pure mad luck. ANyone else would need to be told by us, or if they are the MW do vigorous exploring and surveying and general poking.

Four, the Second Key Piece: they need Refractory Materials. The MW have this, the ETH might have this and the Xohyssiri are probably close to developing it on their own, but no one else has an inkling to it.



Ahh. Thanks Karu.
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From us they need 1 thing and one thing only: to see that we're mining red rocks and producing star metal.

They can get refractory materials and refinement methods from other people or invent them on their own. It will take investment but is somewhat more inevitable/brute-force-able than discovering that x random material is the source of the ore, especially if they know of the MW or practice mining and smelting locally.

Though I guess that the rusting that will occur on weapons they loot from our bodies might give that away, too.

Edit: How's the alien story coming?
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
To be honest, at this point in history I think any attempts to suppress information will fail - we just don't have that level of control. It'll be hard for them to figure it out from us, but any attempts to misdirect like that are liable to make things worse.
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Right. It's better to focus on building the Ymaryn as an innovation engine and the ability to concentrate vast amount of manpower to any endeavors we choose.

Think of SpaceX, for example. The company is so ahead that all old aerospace firms' R&D plans are laughable. It doesn't matter if the lowlander crib steel and iron production idea, they will take ages to catch up. And by the time they do, we'll already be working on something else.
 
Suppressing the spread of this tech is impossible.

So the next best thing is to straight-up be better at it than everyone else. We're going to have to invest quite a bit of research and expansion into this.
 
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Steppe fires
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    • [x][Main] Study Iron Smelting (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
    [x][Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
    [x][Secondary] Proclaim Glory (-2 Art, +1 Legitimacy)

    Provinces Expand Econ x4

    Thunder Horse [Main] War Mission - Northern Nomads x2

    The north burns, the surviving People huddled into the settlements with walls, barely scraping by with fish and grain imported via boat, their warriors dead and chariots smashed or captured. Everything not safely protected by stone walls has been burned or carried off, depending on how valuable and transportable they are. The warriors sent north from the south have fared somewhat better, but even with their backup they have been unable to push back the tide of chariot warriors.

    The War Chief had expected that even if the ravages of the nomad raids continued the tribes would have grown sated and used their wealth and prestige to go conquer other tribes further out. Unfortunately, it seemed that a single chieftain had managed to unify a vast number of tribes and had decided that the existence of the Stallion Tribes was a threat to him... which they honestly probably were, although that was probably because they stood between him and the even greater wealth of the northern coast and the People there. There was also some consideration that he might consider the sea trade between the People and the Metal Workers to be an obstacle to controlling the metal trade between them and thus by destroying the coastal settlements it would make such trade all the harder for the People, putting wealth into the hands of his people.

    Asshole.

    Meanwhile, in the south, the artisans devoted considerable effort to getting the process of extracting star metal from ore into a form that they could actually use. The first kilns they made worked but only produced very small quantities of the metal and were prone to cracking from the heat. It took effort to refine the process enough to get kilns that were large, durable and could get hot enough, but they fortunately still had the artisans who had worked on the original problem with Dormthun around and major backing from the king to get the process up and running. Unfortunately, the very open sponsorship of the study at a time of crisis did not sit well with many, who took the devastation of the north to be further proof that the gods disapproved of the People attempting to wield their weapons, although the new king ran a major campaign to spread the official story on the project and star metal and thus was able to at least restore the confidence of the People that the nobility wasn't possessed by demons, even if there was perhaps a sense that they were just fundamentally stupid in more than a few places.

    Fortunately the Thunder Speakers chose not to attack while the People were weak, probably because they were called by their overlords to assist in subduing the Swamp Folk to the south alongside the Xohyssiri. From what traders said the Thunder Speakers were the ones to gain the most from it, carrying off slaves, wives, and loot in large numbers while the Xohyssiri mostly muddled about trying to reclaim some of their lost territory and the Thunder Horse king caught some sort of nasty disease in the swamps, died and left a succession crisis among his sons. So while the Thunder Horse were probably going to ready to go for another round soon, and they might also get dragged into a nasty civil war.

    As for the Highlanders, whatever spat they had internally seemed to have been sorted out quickly enough and they were back to attempting to draw more of the lowlands into their circle, with rumours of skirmishes with the Hathatyn cities to their west. Despite the lineage of Magwyna no longer holding the kingship, they might still come to the aid of the People against the Thunder Speakers or Thunder Horse out of political convenience, but were definitely of no potential help against the tribes rampaging through the People's northern territories.

    For the king and major chiefs and shamans, some degree of capitulation to the nomads was probably going to be required, even though there were still voices calling for further attacks against the nomads. All in all, not a great situation.

    What to do about the nomads?
    [] Accept utter humiliation (-3 Prestige, chance of loss of the March)
    [] Heap tribute upon their chief and promise more (-5 Diplomacy, -1 Diplomacy/turn until next war or collapse of nomad tribe, -1 Prestige)
    [] Keep Fighting

    The Stallions have been catastrophically mauled, send support?
    [] No (Large chance of stability loss)
    [] Send a contingent of young men (1 Econ and Martial transferred)
    [] Transfer a large group of People (2 Econ and Martial transferred)
    [] Resettle large numbers (3 Econ and Martial transferred)
     
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