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Paths of Civilization

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Sivantic said:
A domestic source that hasn't been expanded since its introduction. The March has grown much since then.

Is that really such a big leap to think that Expand Forest would assist by making more wood available?

I'm irritated that you have been so dismissive of my arguments as ill thought out and fatalisitic.
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Yes. Yes it is, because this is a system that relies on a fairly hefty amount of abstraction. I am dismissive of your conjecture, because I'm willing to make the radical assumption that the econ provided by expanding forests, include- wonder of wonders- would already include increased availability of wood. There's nothing suggested that going from a steady source of wood (that would be far larger than the amount you plan to add for at least two generations) would lead to massive cost savings in wood. And yes, they'd have to be massive in terms of cost saving considering you want it to discount chariots and even removing 1 econ from the price would be something like 33 to 50% off.- which is crazy.

veekie said:
Said it before. Finish taking the hills first, make Walled cities standard, wait for the next epidemic then drop a March in the Lowland Minors while all contestants are too dead
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Considering the TS and the Xoh are going to take a swing at us sooner rather than later- what do you say about wiping out the TS entirely and placing a March there while getting the Xoh to bend the knee to us? * I don't think the TH can really afford to fund a major expedition this far west to save their vassals without appearing weak at home. If we can secure the borders of the Lowlands, than going for the soft juicy interior is going to be a lot less bloody.

That just leaves the HK- and with iron, we can at least intimidate them enough into not pushing the issue.

*This is assuming we have iron before we go on the offensive against them.
 
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BungieONI said:
We can't put a colony. A march is a whole different beast.

Besides I don't think actually invading the Lowlands with force is necessary. We can expand our settlements and fight people off as they come. Walled cities would be nice though.
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A march is a military colony meant to defend the people from their enemies we need to have a cassus beli in order to place a march hence why the only place we can currently place a new one is to the NE to furthwr protect us from the nomads
 
NotAlwaysFanfic said:
Only thing I see wrong with the map is the Canal, which connects our rivers together, not bridges a bend in our western one (what were their names again?).
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Are you sure? The story post read more like it was bypassing an area of particularly bad starch of the river, rather then connecting the two rivers. @Academia Nut Is he correct and the canal is connecting the two rivers, or is it bypassing a piticularly bad stretch of river? If he is right, I'll correct it right away.
 
BungieONI said:
Please cite a quote from AN stating that.
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It is right there in the important projects tab
Academia Nut said:
Found March - Sometimes you need an extra buffer between you and hostile powers, or a place to stash excess warriors. Current Target: North-East
*M: -5 Martial, -2 Econ, founds march to take independent martial actions
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We can only found a march in the NE since that is where the hostile powers are
 
Reader of all said:
We cannot put a march in the lowlands it needs to be a new province
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You know what he means >3>

We grow our way in and fend them off when they get irritated.

Karugus said:
Yes. Yes it is, because this is a system that relies on a fairly hefty amount of abstraction. I am dismissive of your conjecture, because I'm willing to make the radical assumption that the econ provided by expanding forests, include- wonder of wonders- the increased availability of wood. There's nothing suggested that going from a steady source of wood (that would be far larger than the amount you plan to add for at least two generations) would lead to massive cost savings in wood. And yes, they'd have to be massive in terms of cost saving considering you want it to discount chariots and even removing 1 econ from the price would be something like 33 to 50% off.- which is crazy.
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This is a lot more in depth and reasonable counter argument than simply calling mine an a**pull and I appreciate that.

To that I have to remind you that one Econ Point for the Ymaryn is not the same as an Econ Point for the March. The cost of Chariots for us could be different to the March. We have no idea if it is more dear to them because they have sparser foresting then we do.

The best argument-that I just thought right now(actually I think veekie said it[oh well])- would have been to say that the savings we get are the Econ we get.

There, now we are both right.
 
Man. Can't wait for our enemies to get so fucking tired of these trees getting in the way of their chariots that they start burning them down. Although at that point I think we'd lose stability if we didn't go War Mission x Max on them.
 
Just throwing this wacky idea out there, but 'discount' on chariots could result in more martial for the same price, instead of same martial for less or having to turn to fractions.

So M chariots might give 5 for 2, meaning 25% increase instead of 33-50%.
 
Stealthy said:
Man. Can't wait for our enemies to get so fucking tired of these trees getting in the way of their chariots that they start burning them down.
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That might trigger an attempt at Nomad genocide without a vote on our part. Burning down our forests tramples on basically all of our values. Hell, this might prompt our civ to start salting the grasslands in retaliation.
 
You know, the Ymaryn's ancestors would have thought that the Ymaryn we're seeing now as too nice even as they marvel at their descendents' achievement.

And oh, for an omake, reactions from all the heroic kings.

Stealthy said:
Man. Can't wait for our enemies to get so fucking tired of these trees getting in the way of their chariots that they start burning them down. Although at that point I think we'd lose stability if we didn't go War Mission x Max on them.
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They are going to be sorely disappointed. The Ymaryn wouldn't let the forests accumulate so much wood that it would be easy to start an all consuming forest fire.
 
Stealthy said:
Man. Can't wait for our enemies to get so fucking tired of these trees getting in the way of their chariots that they start burning them down. Although at that point I think we'd lose stability if we didn't go War Mission x Max on them.
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The list of things that will piss the Ymaryn off enough that AN puts the vote options as [] Push the Button or [] Maybe we should think about this?

-Using cholera as a weapon
-Burning a lot of their forest down

:D
 
BungieONI said:
The list of things that will piss the Ymaryn off enough that AN puts the vote options as [] Push the Button or [] Maybe we should think about this?

-Using cholera as a weapon
-Burning a lot of their forest down

:D
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Hmm. We should be near the point that we started recording history and historical accounts and the emergence of the first true historian.

The library pretty much hint at it.
 
Another way to get an in into the lowlands is to keep trading with the HK until we can diplo annex them seriously that civ keeps breaking into civil war all the time.
 
Reader of all said:
We cannot put a march in the lowlands it needs to be a new province
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The requirement is it being too far away to administrate properly. Odds are it'd unlock once we finish expanding across Redhill with settlements.
Karugus said:
Considering the TS and the Xoh are going to take a swing at us sooner rather than later- what do you say about wiping out the TS entirely and placing a March there while getting the Xoh to bend the knee to us? * I don't think the TH can really afford to fund a major expedition this far west to save their vassals without appearing weak at home. If we can secure the borders of the Lowlands, than going for the soft juicy interior is going to be a lot less bloody.

That just leaves the HK- and with iron, we can at least intimidate them enough into not pushing the issue.

*This is assuming we have iron before we go on the offensive against them.
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That's uh:
Found March - Sometimes you need an extra buffer between you and hostile powers, or a place to stash excess warriors. Current Target: North-East
*M: -5 Martial, -2 Econ, founds march to take independent martial actions

Way too far at present.
Here, I doodled in the March/Colony/TradePost sites onto the map.
Reader of all said:
A march is a military colony meant to defend the people from their enemies we need to have a cassus beli in order to place a march hence why the only place we can currently place a new one is to the NE to furthwr protect us from the nomads
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Naw, the main reason we don't have a Lowland march isn't the lack of enemies. Simply history says there's no lack of those. The thing is, count the distance to each province from our core/capital provinces of Redshore and Valleyhome:
-Northshore is connected directly to Redshore.
-Black River is connected directly to Northshore, which is connected to Redshore.
-Southshore is connected directly to Redshore.
-Stonepen is connected directly to Sacred Forest, which is connected to Valleyhome.
-Redhill is connected directly to Valleyhome

So Periphery states:
-Stallion Tribes is connected to Northshore/Stonepen. Thrice removed from Valleyhome/Redshore
-Northeaster March is connected to Stonepen. Thrice removed from Valleyhome
-Blackriver West Colony is connected to Northshore. Thrice removed from Valleyhome/Redshore
-Green River Trading Post is ungodly far away(also that sounds like the river is polluted with copper tailings)

Therefore, if we want a March in the lowlands, we should expand Redhill to capacity, and then overflow into a new province in the hills/lowland north, before one will unlock. This will take some time.

TerrisH said:
Are you sure? The story post read more like it was bypassing an area of particularly bad starch of the river, rather then connecting the two rivers. @Academia Nut Is he correct and the canal is connecting the two rivers, or is it bypassing a piticularly bad stretch of river? If he is right, I'll correct it right away.
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The Canal back then didn't connect the two rivers. It combined a number of minor streams into a Canal that bypassed the waterfall to reach the west river valley.
 
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Too quiet
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] [Main] More Carrion Eaters
    [X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Expansion
    [X] [Secondary] Build Chariots

    Provinces: [Main] New Settlement - Bleeding Cliffs, Eastern Redhills, [Sec] New Settlement - Western Blackriver

    Stallion Tribes: [Main] Build Chariots, [Sec] Expand Econ x2

    Looking over the reports and tallies, the king knew that the People needed to recover from their losses, and also knew that they needed to be ready for next time. With a few orders he told the provincial chiefs to keep their warriors close to home and focus their efforts on expanding the number of settlements they had - and thus the number of people - in preparation for their next fight. With what other resources they had, they would rebuild their elites, and in particular induct more Carrion Eaters than usual to give those who fought a better chance of survival. It took a lot to train up a proper chariot archer, and increasing the number of them that came back was of incredible benefit to both this generation and the next.

    And so the People built and waited and listened. The south was... quiet. Whatever plans the Thunder Speakers might have had were truncated by the Thunder Horse recovering and stabilizing faster than expected and looking to keep their vassals under control. The Xohyssiri attempted to retake former tributary territory, but soon enough discovered that the villages around them were now appealing to the Thunder Horse for protection. Somehow, the Xohyssiri took this loss in stride, shrugged their shoulders, and decided that they still made a tremendous amount of things that people wanted and thus maybe they should just focus on making stuff and continue to let people come to them.

    Xohyssiri enter Golden Age!
    Xohyr becomes True City!

    Being one of the People collectively holding his breath, the king was thus somewhat alarmed when some of the shamans came to him with a matter requiring his input and of some urgency. However, fears of some great catastrophe as told in the ancient tales were soon partially mitigated as the story came out. In training a chariot driver had suffered an accident and tumbled from his vehicle, striking his head upon the ground. A junior Carrion Eater had operated upon him, exorcising the demon within his skull, but he had made some sort of mistake in the after care process and had improperly sealed the pathway that might let some other spirit into the skull. While most of the time this simply resulted in death, this time the spirit that seized him was different.

    Words tumbled from the man's lips, strange and mostly incoherent rambling garbage for the most part, but there were snatches of something more within the jumbled nonsense sounds. Sometimes it sounded like the poor man was speaking in an unknown language, while at other times he let off long rattling proclamations or warnings. In particular he kept coming back to variations on a particularly strange phrase.

    "Black mirror sun spear ash bleeding vein return sky streak."

    No one could quite figure out what it might mean, but the shear amount of repetition with at most slight variation had the shamans concerned. There were a couple of possibilities. 'Black mirror' might refer to the holy site in Blackriver, the Star Mirror, a particularly calm pool of clear water in an isolated area that was shielded from the elements enough that on a clear night it acted as a giant, smooth mirror, where 'bleeding vein' might be a reference to Bleeding Cliff, the new settlement being set up with the intent of exploiting the red stone for the star metal there. Either location could make the reference to 'sun spear' be some sort of reference to the weapons of the gods. And then there was 'return sky streak' which could ominously refer to the Great Comet, that harbinger of doom and disease that all of the legends of everyone with records spoke of.

    But what was this message from beyond meant to tell them?

    What should be done?
    [] Examine Star Mirror (possibility of disrupting holy site, ???)
    [] Examine Bleeding Cliff (possibility of disrupting settlement activity, ???)
    [] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)
    [] This man is sick, care for him but ignore his ramblings (???)

    And then there were the nomads, who had just... disappeared. There were a few tribes that were occasionally spotted wandering by in the distance, but they never seemed to make contact or even try to do any scouting behind being able to skirt away from settlements. What had happened to the unifying king, and where had he taken his people? There was a suggestion that perhaps a scouting mission should be sent out, or maybe just a trade mission to try to find out what was going on. Of course, who they might send a mission to was also a question... Just finding nomads had risks but might give the most direct information, where potential trading partners such as the Thunder Horse (the Thunder Speakers still being on rather bad terms) or the Metal Workers might have some clue if the organized group went far afield.

    Try to find out what is going on?
    [] Military scouting mission
    [] Trade mission to nomad tribes (-1 Diplomacy)
    [] Trade mission to Thunder Horse (-1 Diplomacy)
    [] Trade mission to the Metal Workers (-1 Diplomacy)
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Stealthy said:
    Man. Can't wait for our enemies to get so fucking tired of these trees getting in the way of their chariots that they start burning them down. Although at that point I think we'd lose stability if we didn't go War Mission x Max on them.
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    we clean up all the deadfall and litter that would let a fire spread easy. Managed Forest is OP.
     
    That stab for over 5 economy compels me...
    Don't have an opinion on the trade mission .
     
    [X] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)
    [X] Trade mission to the Metal Workers (-1 Diplomacy)
     
    Hmmm... treat mental illness as prophesy, or treat it like illness....
     
    [X] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)
    [X] Military scouting mission

     
    Ok so either the guy is just sick or he's acquired Aquired Savant syndrome and noticed something. Or he's just randomly repeating something he noticed in the past.
     
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