What

That is some serious exaggeration your part.

I have never said that not taking forest would doom our vassal. I never even touched that.

I said that taking Forest is a long term deterrent that is best taken now than later.

To suggest I said otherwise is plain rude.
Alright strawman might have been a bit too far, but the point was you insisted that by not taking the forest now we're weakening our vassal in the long run, when this is very much the time to be doing damage control and getting them back up on their feet ASAP so that the nomads don't come back to finish the job.

The fact the chariot asspull put me in a bad moon made me regard your post more harshly than I should have- and for that I'm genuinely sorry.
 
Speculation on The Library megaproject benefit:

- 1+ mysticism bonus for every new holy site built.
- Expand Holy Site adds a library.
- Begin transition of mysticism stat to philosophy.
 
On black soil and forest: I think we make just enough black soil to grow a forest. But it isn't self expanding. I predict more black soil production will either make forest growth much bigger, or self expanding, since we would have an abundance of black soils.
And Black Soil has the added bonus of economic expansion anyway, so I'm pretty comfortable with this course of action.
 
Speculation on The Library megaproject benefit:

- 1+ mysticism bonus for every new holy site built.
- Expand Holy Site adds a library.
- Begin transition of mysticism stat to philosophy.
I'm thinking it'll be more like the Law, giving us a free value evolution and unlocking more advanced features a la policies
 
Speculation on The Library megaproject benefit:

- 1+ mysticism bonus for every new holy site built.
- Expand Holy Site adds a library.
- Begin transition of mysticism stat to philosophy.
This will solidify our culture, and likely improve our bookkeeping enough to evolve our taxation system once public education is established.
 
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Alright strawman might have been a bit too far, but the point was you insisted that by not taking the forest now we're weakening our vassal in the long run, when this is very much the time to be doing damage control and getting them back up on their feet ASAP so that the nomads don't come back to finish the job.

The fact the chariot asspull put me in a bad moon made me regard your post more harshly than I should have- and for that I'm genuinely sorry.
...That is still exaggerating quite a bit.

I never said that not taking it was weakening the March. I said it was a long term use as a deterrent.

Why would having Forest make building wooden products cheaper be such a far out idea to merit being called an a**pull?
 
Why would having Forest make building wooden products cheaper be such a far out idea to merit being called an a**pull?
Because they've had a domestic source of lumber for centuries, because we can generally assume relatively trivial details like that are in aggregate covered by the econ forests generate, because the only way to cheapen chariots without massive differences would be fractions, because there's no real precedent of a similar nature that the mechanics function that way.
 
It's probably safe to say that while growing forests in the March would improve the availability of wood, it's unlikely to be significant enough to impact our production Econ costs, given the sheer abundance of wood in our civilization overall.

The increased availability of wood, then, is simply the Econ bonus. For us wood is plentiful, so the key is having the manpower to apply more than lacking materials.

By contrast a forest in the lowlands will greatly impact THEIR production costs.
 
It's probably safe to say that while growing forests in the March would improve the availability of wood, it's unlikely to be significant enough to impact our production Econ costs, given the sheer abundance of wood in our civilization overall.

The increased availability of wood, then, is simply the Econ bonus. For us wood is plentiful, so the key is having the manpower to apply more than lacking materials.

By contrast a forest in the lowlands will greatly impact THEIR production costs.
A major forest in the Lowlands would completely upset the apple cart. Just *Boom*.

It's why it is possibly more valuable to us than the Lowlanders, they can't exploit it as hard as we can.
 
I mean...whether or not the numbers change doesn't affect whether the narrative changes? Like, 2 martial from a main blackbirds is going to do more than 2 martial from two secondary blackbirds on separate turns, narratively. Its the same reason why i'm baffled at people thinking that filling econ slots is only good for the econ we get. Even more than the tech gain* and the "news from abroad via refugees" gain**, we're gaining, you know, people? We've got major advantages by way of "we have so many fucking people", that aren't represented in the numbers, because we've taken in so many people so everything's on a bigger scale for us.


*Especially since i suspect we need to take larger amounts at once to get much
**Not like we get much news via trade missions... :p
 
A major forest in the Lowlands would completely upset the apple cart. Just *Boom*.

It's why it is possibly more valuable to us than the Lowlanders, they can't exploit it as hard as we can.
Naw, our economy is pretty much based around "Wood is always available". The lowlanders have had to adapt to wood scarcity, so they make more with less.

Give them more and things change.
Its like our initial shitty soil situation.

But for forestry, pretty sure theres no local wood scarcity. Just manpower savings from sourcing wood closer to home.
 
Because they've had a domestic source of lumber for centuries, because we can generally assume relatively trivial details like that are in aggregate covered by the econ forests generate, because the only way to cheapen chariots without massive differences would be fractions, because there's no real precedent of a similar nature that the mechanics function that way.
A domestic source that hasn't been expanded since its introduction. The March has grown much since then.

Is that really such a big leap to think that Expand Forest would assist by making more wood available?

I'm irritated that you have been so dismissive of my arguments as ill thought out and fatalisitic.
 
Don't forget that we have a system for managing the forests. The lowlanders are likely to piss away all the woods they get.

What's more valuable is the socioeconomic and cultural technologies needed to manage the forests.
 
Don't forget that we have a system for managing the forests. The lowlanders are likely to piss away all the woods they get.

What's more valuable is the socioeconomic and cultural technologies needed to manage the forests.
To be fair, we did our best to impart our own knowledge of forest management onto the Lowlanders because we were desperately trying to stop deforestation. They should have some of the socioeconomic and cultural tech, although not nearly to our level.
 
A domestic source that hasn't been expanded since its introduction. The March has grown much since then
Actually, Managed Forests do expand over time, just very slowly. Expand Forests basically is artificially speeding up the process massively though, which is important if you think 10 generations is a little too slow :p

I wonder if a Double Main Forest would count as engineering...
 
Don't forget that we have a system for managing the forests. The lowlanders are likely to piss away all the woods they get.

What's more valuable is the socioeconomic and cultural technologies needed to manage the forests.
We actually gave the HK's previous gov, the Western Confederacy, tips on managing forests during the War on Blight, iirc--obviously that's not enough to make them as skilled or dedicated as us, but they know at least the basics...might even know black soil, since tht was a major part of our strategy in fighting the blight
 
Organizational
Centralization 3
Hierarchy 6

Legacies
+2 Centralization Tolerance
+1 Hierarchy Tolerance
Rush Builders: Extended projects cost more per turn but complete faster
Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads

What were our Tolerance bonuses before? What were/are our Centralisation/Heirarchy "safe" caps?
 
We actually gave the HK's previous gov, the Western Confederacy, tips on managing forests during the War on Blight, iirc--obviously that's not enough to make them as skilled or dedicated as us, but they know at least the basics...might even know black soil, since tht was a major part of our strategy in fighting the blight
We taught them but IIRC they don't really care much about it. Probably gone now in the regime change.
 
Naw, our economy is pretty much based around "Wood is always available". The lowlanders have had to adapt to wood scarcity, so they make more with less.

Give them more and things change.
Its like our initial shitty soil situation.

But for forestry, pretty sure theres no local wood scarcity. Just manpower savings from sourcing wood closer to home.
I't be real funny too since we would be changing the way war is being fought in the Lowlands yet again, despite being the least militant polity :p

The first time by introducing cart riding via nomads, this time by reducing the advantages it could give by introducing woodlands
Actually, Managed Forests do expand over time, just very slowly. Expand Forests basically is artificially speeding up the process massively though, which is important if you think 10 generations is a little too slow :p

I wonder if a Double Main Forest would count as engineering...
Look at it in the way that we had to expand warriors. It was sufficient at the start and it did grow proportionately, but not adequately for our civ when the nomads came knocking. Same idea here.
 
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We cannot put a march in the lowlands it needs to be a new province
We can't put a colony. A march is a whole different beast.

Besides I don't think actually invading the Lowlands with force is necessary. We can expand our settlements and fight people off as they come. Walled cities would be nice though.
 
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