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Paths of Civilization

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I think we should build up our Carrion Eaters next turn. It works well in supporting a defensive strategy against the nomads, which we excel at, and it actively builds up their numbers, which we haven't done since they were invented.

I don't know about you guys, but whenever we're at war I'm always a little scared that all our Carrion Eaters will be killed off in the fighting.
 
Duesal said:
Yeah, to me that chance was something along the lines of ridiculously small to impossible.

This hero general is fighting a genocide campaign.

He wants to completely wipe the Stallion Tribes out. And keep in mind that as a Heroic General he'd pretty easily see right through our strategy of, "buy time, wait for them to fracture, then strike."

He would not have been bought off by our bribes, he would have snatched them then continued to pillage the Stallion tribes until nothing was left.
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Read the rest. It wasn't an existential threat. It was a block on extorting wealth out of those further south and thereby a long-term impediment to economic expansion for his people. If he's already getting a lot of that wealth in exchange for doing nothing, yeah, he would be quite likely to do the nomad thing and move on to raiding other targets. He certainly doesn't intend to conquer the entire people considering that even the total capitulation option only carried a chance of his annexing the march, so he's already factored in the potential for vengeance either way.
 
pblur said:
You stated that we don't have enough Martial or Econ. If we run out of martial and econ (as you say we will) then it will expand economy too. Until then, it'll cash in stats for more immediate (and more relevant to the actual place fighting is happening) power.
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For that to happen, we'd have to run out of Martial or go down to <2 Martial.

0-1 Martial in a life or death war is death.
 
Lailoken said:
Read the rest. It wasn't an existential threat. It was a block on extorting wealth out of those further south and thereby a long-term impediment to economic expansion for his people. If he's already getting a lot of that wealth in exchange for doing nothing, yeah, he would be quite likely to do the nomad thing and move on to raiding other targets. He certainly doesn't intend to conquer the entire people considering that even the total capitulation option only carried a chance of his annexing the march, so he's already factored in the potential for vengeance either way.
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I don't buy it. IMO he would have continued til he held the March.
 
redzonejoe said:
I eagerly anticipate the day we can set Military objectives for a war mission, such as 'advance and fortify' or 'unrelenting onslaught'.
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Pretty sure that's called "take a main war mission and have a mid-turn decision"; as far as i can remember we've never taken a main war mission, except for maybe while Gwygoytha was controlling the turns
 
veekie said:
This is settling in for a siege. It assumes we're going to take hits, and that we need to be able to continue to keep expanding our military next turn. And the turn after that. And the turn after that. All the while hardening the North, replacing and improving the existing towers that the Nomads burned(current towers after all are basically stacked stone, not too complex to crack)
We'll spend a Main action every turn on rebuilding the damage, a Secondary on the War and another Secondary free for dealing with other issues or making progress. Meanwhile the province get their settlements walled, and we extend the walls and towers back across the fields to deny them the mobility advantage each generation.
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With your defensive strategy I am very concerned we will lose the March, while it may not be totally dead it will be cut off. This will trigger the down side of Divine Stewards for the first time in history and we will lose Stability. Just a reminder I guess.
 
I'm also curious how this constant series of defensive wars will shape the culture of the Ymaryn- especially if the TS come back for another go sooner rather than later. For around 50 years the people will have been fighting and dieing the keep their People safe. They've tried to live in peace and harmony, and now they've been bloodied and battered by those who refuse to accept that. And now we see the abject refusal to cower in the face of aggression. I really wouldn't be surprised if we picked up an honour value centered around revanchism if the TS try to kick us when we're down. There's just been too much blood spilt here for this to not majorly alter how the Ymaryn people see warfare.
 
aceraptor said:
Frankly. If we can figure out which nomad tribe it was that this fuckers from. I want that tribe exterminated.
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"Did the dead spirits take over our spirits or something?."


I was gonna suggest to burn the nomad grassland and salt the land. Than I imagine our hard worker traits bitchslap that suggestion so hard. The grasslands turns into immaculate farms and order pastures.
 
Karugus said:
Except without really devoting all that much military from contesting them (a single main war+stallions doesn't count) what's stopping them from moving into Stonepen and Northshore, fortifications or no?
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Being contested at all. Stallion Tribe rules, he has to destroy them first(which is not impossible), but we're currently feeding the Stallion Tribes 3 Econ and 3 Martial, which means he'd need to do massive damage first to break them first.

Which is why we're sending war missions to supplement their defenses while we build up the second row of defenses in case they fail.

As for nomads not being able to practice total war do to a lack of food supply, isn't their food far less dependent on the seasons? They just feed off their animals and the conditions that far south probably aren't that bad even year round. Seasonal food income is mostly as a result to harvest and sowing seasons- something they don't have to deal with. And I really dislike how you've all but admitted that you're fortifying Stonepen and Northshore over actually trying to save the Stallion Tribes considering how at risk they are. It feels far too much like risking the loss of the ST entirely, especially what with sending even more men and material there.
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The Stallion Tribes are a buffer state. We need them to stand, but breaking a horde led by a hero is not happening. So we send them food and manpower for them to hold up while we harden our entire north border because there is a chance of failure.

Again, remember that in the worst days of Patrikos, we only needed a Main War Mission to stalemate him bloodily at Martial 8 once we built walls. It costs us Martial every turn, but we can afford to supply the Stallion Tribes for 2 turns at least in this manner without breaking anything.
 
Note that his objective is explicitly to raid the South and burn the coast so he can force trade to go through him. If the march can't strongly contest his movement through it instead of huddling behind walls he'll just bypass them and hit the real targets.

Again, organized nomads are strategic hell.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
For that to happen, we'd have to run out of Martial or go down to <2 Martial.

0-1 Martial in a life or death war is death.
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Actually, not really. Think about the rate at which we can generate Econ, convert it into Martial, and deploy the Martial (War Mission). Worst case, suppose we only have 8 actions.
It costs 1 action to generate 1 Econ.
It costs 1 action plus 1 Econ to create 2 Martial.
It costs 1 action to deploy 2 martial.
So we can fully create and deploy 5.3 Martial every single turn till kingdom come.
 
veekie said:
Historically we know what it takes to deal with them. Build walls, build towers so they damage the walls and towers instead of our settlements. Keep regenerating the lost Martial. Wait them out.

Proven to work. We've done it every time to date against their Heroes.
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Chariots aren't the worst idea given the terrain either, still. Chariot archers were specifically called out as being useful for a reason.

Mind, this also continues to relate back to how I've been trying to get Expand Forest into new areas passed to change the terrain to better suit the people and fuck up these stupid horse tribe raiders.
 
Lone Wolf 666 said:
"Did the dead spirits take over our spirits or something?."


I was gonna suggest to burn the nomad grassland and salt the land. Than I imagine our hard worker traits bitchslap that suggestion so hard. The grasslands turns into immaculate farms and order pastures.
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Believe it or not, I was actually considering this.

And then I realized that we would accidentally create our own Sahara. We built our first mega project to avoid desertification. Making a desert just to fuck the nomads over also fucks us over.
 
Abby Normal said:
Pretty sure that's called "take a main war mission and have a mid-turn decision"; as far as i can remember we've never taken a main war mission, except for maybe while Gwygoytha was controlling the turns
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Maybe, but i was under the impression that the mid-turn decision was tactical rather than strategic.

The terms tactic and strategy are often confused: tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan, which may involve complex operational patterns, activity, and decision-making that govern tactical execution.

The closest thing to what I'm picturing was our recent decision to humiliate TS rather than degrading their influence or merely having them back off.
 
veekie said:
Being contested at all. Stallion Tribe rules, he has to destroy them first(which is not impossible), but we're currently feeding the Stallion Tribes 3 Econ and 3 Martial, which means he'd need to do massive damage first to break them first.

Which is why we're sending war missions to supplement their defenses while we build up the second row of defenses in case they fail.
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You're claiming that he can't utterly shatter the Stallion Tribes thanks to 3 econ and 3 martial

All while admitting you're considering letting Divine Stewards proc as we lose land
veekie said:
The Stallion Tribes are a buffer state. We need them to stand, but breaking a horde led by a hero is not happening. So we send them food and manpower for them to hold up while we harden our entire north border because there is a chance of failure.
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And then claiming that we can't break the horde itself. Do you really think a much smaller army than the one we could mount by actually building it up and running multiple mains will be able to actually meaningfully contest him for all that long? Especially when his entire goal is to circumvent the Stallion Tribes.

You don't simply send in units piecemeal against a martial hero, and we fundamentally can't afford to lose the ST thanks to Divine Steward. It would put us in a horrendous position.
 
Lailoken said:
Note that his objective is explicitly to raid the South and burn the coast so he can force trade to go through him. If the march can't strongly contest his movement through it instead of huddling behind walls he'll just bypass them and hit the real targets.

Again, organized nomads are strategic hell.
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Nomads are only a strategic hell if you play their game. It's just not playing their game is running them down and genociding them as their entire world burns to the ground... which is sad but well they brought it on them selves and it's not like we have the tech to be a OCP to them so them the breaks.
 
pblur said:
You stated that we don't have enough Martial or Econ. If we run out of martial and econ (as you say we will) then it will expand economy too. Until then, it'll cash in stats for more immediate (and more relevant to the actual place fighting is happening) power.
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No, because Policy only expands Economy when unable to take policy actions. Offense Policy can always take War Mission until they don't have any Martial. Thus it will never switch for running out.
BungieONI said:
With your defensive strategy I am very concerned we will lose the March, while it may not be totally dead it will be cut off. This will trigger the down side of Divine Stewards for the first time in history and we will lose Stability. Just a reminder I guess.
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Yes, that is one possible risk, which is why I continue to build up military and send dudes over. THe Nomad Hero can't do enough damage in one turn to kill them given our choice of maximum supoort, due to lacking enough actions.
If the choice to send dudes over shows up again next turn? I'd take it. It'd suck balls, but I would.
The turn after that? A bit chancier, but I'd probably take it.
The turn after THAT? Their hero will be dead one way or another. Then we will show them the dish served cold.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.
 
Lone Wolf 666 said:
I was gonna suggest to burn the nomad grassland and salt the land. Than I imagine our hard worker traits bitchslap that suggestion so hard. The grasslands turns into immaculate farms and order pastures.
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"You ever hear of the Northern Grasslands?"
"You mean the Northern Forest?"
"Sure, thats what they call it NOW...."
 
Karugus said:
You're claiming that he can't utterly shatter the Stallion Tribes thanks to 3 econ and 3 martial

All while admitting you're considering letting Divine Stewards proc as we lose land

And then claiming that we can't break the horde itself. Do you really think a much smaller army than the one we could mount by actually building it up and running multiple mains will be able to actually meaningfully contest him for all that long? Especially when his entire goal is to circumvent the Stallion Tribes.

You don't simply send in units piecemeal against a martial hero, and we fundamentally can't afford to lose the ST thanks to Divine Steward. It would put us in a horrendous position.
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Well, to be fair he wants a secondary war mission too. Still, the general has his entire civilization behind him. The Stallions will have one-eighth of their civilization behind them. It ain't going to end well. We need a bigger manpower commitment than that.
 
Mannan said:
Actually, is this the first major military operation that the People undergo that actually puts the entire civilization under threat?
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No, there was also the first Nomad hero who attacked us unprovoked. We only really survived because we outlasted him and then mopped up the fragments of his horde.
 
veekie said:
No, because Policy only expands Economy when unable to take policy actions. Offense Policy can always take War Mission until they don't have any Martial. Thus it will never switch for running out.
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Read what you wrote again. 'Unable to take policy actions'. If it's out of Martial, it is unable to take send war mission, right?

It doesn't say 'unable to take policy actions due to being out of econ.'
 
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