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Paths of Civilization

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Academia Nut said:
Not particularly.

A meow to anyone who can figure out what relation this has to things being delayed :p


Hint: This has nothing to do with the story, it's just me being odd
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Were you looking up Sabaton wikipedia :p.

Candesce said:
No.

Our shamans do not have our background knowledge.

As such, if they ignore the prophecies, it will not be for our reasons - it will be for theirs.

And their knowledge doesn't give them a scientific basis to dismiss prophecies, so we're left with the non-scientific ones.
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Maybe our shamans will treat this as sick man mumbling things like it is rather than assume that he is telling the future like the option says?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Didn't the theory of gravity come from someone who had an apple fall on their head?
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lol

Candesce said:
Lovely.

I wonder what the conclusion that spirits lie will do to our culture.
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I don't know why people would necessarily come to the conclusion that spirits lie. It could be a result of spiritual overload damaging the mortal shell that represents the person; of inter-spiritual cascading resonance; of a battle between the spirits as they fight over who gets the body; etc.

Also, every culture with spirits has spirits that lie. They still trust the powerful ones because powerful spirits would see no point in lying. And if they are lying, it's for the person's benefit or to teach them the folly of naive trust. Doesn't Crow in his Trickster form lie?
 
tryrar said:
Umm, voting for stockpiling resources? Because that would be the only way doing econ action would have narrative significance this turn.
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I don't particularly care for the stockpile option, as it might exacerbate the metal superstition as well as give us a new superstition towards believing prophecies from the mentally ill and old people.
 
NotteBoy97 said:
Maybe our shamans will treat this as sick man mumbling things like it is rather than assume that he is telling the future like the option says?
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Maybe it will. Here's the thing, though? That's still an assumption, from their point of view. "We don't need to investigate this because it's obvious nonsense."

Establishing the idea that hypotheses about the world can be dismissed for "being obvious nonsense" is going to utterly cripple Ymaryn scientific thought, though - the world works in a lot of ways that don't match gut reasoning. "God does not play dice with the universe" is far from the first of them.

Karugus said:
I find it hard to believe we'd assume spirits can't lie unless it's some Fae twisting truth bullshit.
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Oh, right, point. That's somewhat less bad, then.
 
Candesce said:
No.

Our shamans do not have our background knowledge.

As such, if they ignore the prophecies, it will not be for our reasons - it will be for theirs.

And their knowledge doesn't give them a scientific basis to dismiss prophecies, so we're left with the non-scientific ones.
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Except I said WE
As in the Players
Can Choose, I don't give a shit if our Shamans believe they can turn the earth to dust with magic rituals, it doesn't mean its true, We can safely ignore the dude with brain damage
Karugus said:
But our people don't, and if they feel something validates that prophecy (and anything could) than obviously it's the fault of the government. I do not give a flying fuck what WE believe. I don't care if you think the Earth is flat and that vaccines make kids retarded- I care about what the Ymaryn believe, and how they'll contextualize this. To them, this is potentially ignoring blatant cause and effect, and to deny the validity of said prophecy in the face of such evidence might garner the same disregard as creationists might hold from me or you. Your comments only illustrate my point by only considering the thread's stance and consensus on the matter when it is in fact the least important factor in all of this.
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That's Bullshit and you know it, Ignoring means not giving credence to his words, and if were even a bit lucky then not giving crazy mad men the ability of dictating government action.
Anyways I will not allow us to gain a belief that allows vague Bullshit to hold reign of our whole nation or risk destabilization.
Honestly I don't give a shit what you want or care about, There is nothing good to come of creating Prophets that feign precognition or divine messages.
 
People talking about lying spirits and all i can think is how this music gives me a lot of crow vibesm like "kek let's teach them another leason, kek kek"
 
Candesce said:
Establishing the idea that hypotheses about the world can be dismissed for "being obvious nonsense" is going to utterly cripple Ymaryn scientific thought, though - the world works in a lot of ways that don't match gut reasoning.
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Please do not make jumps like this. It is obvious nonsense in this case because the person saying it is ill, NOT because it doesn't match gut reasoning.

Ghostdevil said:
Can Choose, I don't give a shit if our Shamans believe they can turn the earth to dust with magic rituals, it doesn't mean its true, We can safely ignore the dude with brain damage
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.... dude. It 100% matters.
 
Candesce said:
The way we've chosen to believe that metal is cursed and we shouldn't have anything to do with it, you mean?
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We didn't really get a choice in that did we?
That was Pure luck
Here we have a choice, even if luck still holds a lot more weight, but any option but ignore has a huge chance of lending credibility to the injured man
 
Malevolo said:
all i can think is how this music gives me a lot of crow vibesm like "kek let's teach them another leason, kek kek"
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Tbh I just find this music cute and somewhat soothing.

Haven't played the game tho.

Ghostdevil said:
We didn't really get a choice in that did we?
That was Pure luck
Here we have a choice, even if luck still holds a lot more weight, but any option but ignore has a huge chance of lending credibility to the injured man
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missing the point that our people have agency
 
Umi-san said:
It is obvious nonsense in this case because the person saying it is ill, NOT because it doesn't match gut reasoning.
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Because Ymaryn shamans have a long history of having investigated the words of spirits entering people's heads to speak to them, and have determined they don't actually provide useful information?

No, the "they're ill, their ravings can't actually mean anything" is all us. The players. Trying to be clever and skip steps.
 
BungieONI said:
No love for:

[] [Main] Build Iron Mine Bleeding Cliffs
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2

?

I give what I feel is a pretty detailed mechanical and narrative analysis as to why this would work out very well for us here, if any kind of Bad Shit is coming (includes DOOM Comet), or set us up nicely in the next turn for doing what we want.
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I feel that this actually sets us back on the metal superstition. Look at the narratives of the approaches:
-Proclaim Glory + Mine immediately = The King opening a mine and then sending people out there to tell them of all the good things that happened lately.
--If nothing bad happens: Weaken the superstition aggressively
--If something bad happens: Chance of backfire if the King doesn't in fact have everything under control. If he does manage the crisis just fine, then people will think "yeah it's cursed, but we can take em"

-Proclaim Glory + Survey, Mine next generation = The King reassures everyone that everything is fine while also visibly checking for possible problems, building up general confidence, so that when the Mine is built, people are optimistic, and so notice bad things less.
--If nothing bad happens: Weaken the superstition
--If something bad happens: No progress, people are optimistic and are just disappointed.

-Grand Sacrifice + Mine = The King opens a mine and conducts a big sacrifice to the spirits.
--If nothing bad happens: Clearly the spirits are placated if you sacrifice to them before opening a mine.(this is actually one of the prophecy readings)
--If something bad happens: People believe the spirits have been placated, and the problem will go away soon(which as we've seen, they usually go away in one turn anyway)

Narratives matter.
Umi-san said:
I disagree and, by all appearances, so does the description of New Trails. As a minor point, you yourself said that Redhill has poor roads, which is why a Main New Trails would overflow. As one did, IIRC.

You're also completely ignoring what AN was saying r.e. *tech* being needed to improve logistics in terms of supplying the ST while still using it as evidence, as you occasionally do, but I imagine you're trying to address a wider issue.
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You're mixing up two points:
-Stallion Tribes logistics is water based. It's not related.
New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects
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Marginal
a : close to the lower limit of qualification, acceptability, or function : barely exceeding the minimum requirements a semiliterate person of marginal ability

We have roads. They barely exist.
 
Umi-san said:
Please do not make jumps like this. It is obvious nonsense in this case because the person saying it is ill, NOT because it doesn't match gut reasoning.
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Sure, that's our intent. But is that what everyone else will get out of it? Possibly, but not necessarily.

That's why I voted for the Mirror Pool- we test the hypothesis and most likely prove it false. That's a lot better than declaring the hypothesis false when it is currently untested. We know that it's almost certainly nonsense, but they don't. And declaring it as false without any investigation is likely to make our people more likely to ignore hypotheses that they don't like.

But it doesn't matter, the vote's basically decided at this point and there's so many ???s that it's impossible to make objective arguments, so everything comes down to people's perceptions.
 
Candesce said:
Establishing the idea that hypotheses about the world can be dismissed for "being obvious nonsense" is going to utterly cripple Ymaryn scientific thought, though - the world works in a lot of ways that don't match gut reasoning. "God does not play dice with the universe" is far from the first of them.
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Thank you Candesce for succinctly summarizing why I feel inaction is so potentially toxic here. I know people are assuming they'll figure out it's just the head wound talking, but there's a lot of potential risk in having a hypothesis dismissed out of hand here guys.

Ghostdevil said:
That's Bullshit and you know it, Ignoring means not giving credence to his words, and if were even a bit lucky then not giving crazy mad men the ability of dictating government action.
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Ignoring means you or I don't give credence to it, that the king doesn't give credence to it. It doesn't mean our entire civilization doesn't give credence to it, just that influential figures are utterly dismissing what seems like sound reasoning to them.

You. And. I. Know prophecy is false- but this is simply basic reasoning as far as the Ymaryn are concerned. Head injuries result in spirits fucking with the brain, someone speaking in tongues from said head injury might very well be serving as a mouthpiece for spirits given their understanding of injury and illness. Conxtext is key here and you are utterly ignoring it in favor of asserting your own beliefs.

Ghostdevil said:
Anyways I will not allow us to gain a belief that allows vague Bullshit to hold reign of our whole nation or risk destabilization.
Honestly I don't give a shit what you want or care about, There is nothing good to come of creating Prophets that feign precognition or divine messages.
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And thus the ignorance of one age is replaced by the ignorance of another. Isn't anthropology a fascinating subject? We know and understand so much more, can give words and definitions to things our forebears couldn't even conceive of- but we're all still human in the end, and the irony of your position is amusing enough for me to stop arguing with you.

Here, I'll explain it; your dismissal for the need for the Ymaryn to address their ignorance by couching things in a context they can understand is brought about by an inability to rectify such with the context in which you regard the world and ignorance of the importance of such a context.
 
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I'm not sure if the wider populace is aware about this guy.

It isn't a major public issue like the guy who barged into the king's audience chamber, admitted to committing sacrilege in front of a prominent holy man, numerous crimes, almost started a war, and was trying to tempt our leader into effectively risking the wrath of the gods.

Instead, this guy is effectively an invalid. I can't imagine that non-shamans would know about his prophecies unless we choose to announce them.
 
Rakuhn said:
I'm not sure if the wider populace is aware about this guy.

It isn't a major public issue like the guy who barged into the king's audience chamber, admitted to committing sacrilege in front of a prominent holy man, numerous crimes, almost started a war, and was trying to tempt our leader into effectively risking the wrath of the gods.

Instead, this guy is effectively an invalid. I can't imagine that non-shamans would know about his prophecies unless we choose to announce them.
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...IIRC AN specifically said this was the case earlier in the thread.
 
Candesce said:
Because Ymaryn shamans have a long history of having investigated the words of spirits entering people's heads to speak to them, and have determined they don't actually provide useful information?

No, the "they're ill, their ravings can't actually mean anything" is all us. The players. Trying to be clever and skip steps.
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The way i see it, it's a purely outsider heresy, because the Yamaryn Spirits talk to the us using the clouds, the skies and the stars. Anything that possess a man is not a spirit but a demon that is trying to bring strife to our people and poison us against each other. Everytime someone is said to be talking for the spirit, it was a lie, and Crow the Teacher is brutal when a mortal says they speak for him, he speak for himself.

If it's a comet that is coming we must look to the skies and see if the Sky-Spirits send us a Omen, if not, it's a demon talking.
 
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veekie said:
I feel that this actually sets us back on the metal superstition. Look at the narratives of the approaches:
-Proclaim Glory + Mine immediately = The King opening a mine and then sending people out there to tell them of all the good things that happened lately.
--If nothing bad happens: Weaken the superstition aggressively
--If something bad happens: Chance of backfire if the King doesn't in fact have everything under control. If he does manage the crisis just fine, then people will think "yeah it's cursed, but we can take em"

-Proclaim Glory + Survey, Mine next generation = The King reassures everyone that everything is fine while also visibly checking for possible problems, building up general confidence, so that when the Mine is built, people are optimistic, and so notice bad things less.
--If nothing bad happens: Weaken the superstition
--If something bad happens: No progress, people are optimistic and are just disappointed.

-Grand Sacrifice + Mine = The King opens a mine and conducts a big sacrifice to the spirits.
--If nothing bad happens: Clearly the spirits are placated if you sacrifice to them before opening a mine.(this is actually one of the prophecy readings)
--If something bad happens: People believe the spirits have been placated, and the problem will go away soon(which as we've seen, they usually go away in one turn anyway)

Narratives matter.


You're mixing up two points:
-Stallion Tribes logistics is water based. It's not related.

Marginal
a : close to the lower limit of qualification, acceptability, or function : barely exceeding the minimum requirements a semiliterate person of marginal ability

We have roads. They barely exist.
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I feel that those outcomes on the superstition, when it comes to Grand Sacrifice, especially the second one are more business as usual with the Weapons of the Gods. But I think we can agree to disagree.
 
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Karugus said:
Ignoring means you or I don't give credence to it, that the king doesn't give credence to it. It doesn't mean our entire civilization doesn't give credence to it, just that influential figures are utterly dismissing what seems like sound reasoning to them.

You. And. I. Know prophecy is false- but this is simply basic reasoning as far as the Ymaryn are concerned. Head injuries result in spirits fucking with the brain, someone speaking in tongues from said head injury might very well be serving as a mouthpiece for spirits given their understanding of injury and illness. Conxtext is key here and you are utterly ignoring it in favor of asserting your own beliefs.

And thus the ignorance of one age is replaced by the ignorance of another. Isn't anthropology a fascinating subject? We know and understand so much more, can give words and definitions to things our forebears couldn't even conceive of- but we're all still human in the end, and the irony of your position is amusing enough for me to stop arguing with you.
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Well what good does having prophets give us?
That's what is making my decision here
What irony anyways? While I don't claim to know much of anything, I do know more here and that prophesy is definitely wrong (and that's why I was spouting it, to convince people, since IC reasoning doesn't matter as much as convincing others the better choice especially in this case)
 
Candesce said:
No, the "they're ill, their ravings can't actually mean anything" is all us. The players. Trying to be clever and skip steps.
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Historically all of the choices we've been presented with have been colored by IC wording. IIRC. Thus it is 100% the king/shamans' opinion.

Ghostdevil said:
That's the luck factor though?
Our people made the belief based on pure RNG, if we didn't have metal going at the same time as crippling disease we wouldn't have gotten the belief.
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Part of it can be attributed to luck, part of it can be attributed to the existing conditions and predispositions of our people. Both need to be taken into account. Every roll has a DC; those that don't are contested or divided up such that x roll gives y result, and z roll gives ! result.

veekie said:
We have roads. They barely exist.
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Then use appropriate wording when responding? Thx.

veekie said:
You're mixing up two points:
-Stallion Tribes logistics is water based. It's not related.
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You mixed them up yourself earlier when citing AN as if his words were about roads rather than ST's water-based logistics. I was citing your error.

tryrar said:
...IIRC AN specifically said this was the case earlier in the thread.
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I'd appreciate it if you would cite this, but if it's too much trouble there's no need.
 
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