Paths of Civilization

ctulhuslp · May 12, 2017

TerrisH said:
Planing to test something. As shown in the strategic map on the first page, how many KM is the people's teritority from north to south, and likewise, east to west? Need a defined scale limit for the test map I am planing.

@Academia Nut ,can we have some idea?

ETA50M said:
Lowlands meat grinder is only if you smaller villages there constantly swearing fealty to you thus making you obligated to protect them. But a quick mission here and there isn't so bad for the sole purpose to get war experience against other established kingdoms.

But Highlands Kingdom will try to expand in there, thus creating the targets for any attackers and forcing us to choose between defending villages in the lowlands (not even ours to boot) or not defending our ally (which is hell of diplomatic crisis).

And that's ignoring that any 'quick mission' would incite a counter-mission, and so on and so forth.

DragonParadox said:
I don't think it would work that way. We would not get aristocratic families with a power source outside the bureaucratic apparatus (no land ownership). The only difference to the current system would be that the top spot would be sealed in the hands of one family. However it's not like they are going to spontaneously develop primogeniture. the current head of the family will still select the one who seems most competent to him from among the current members of the clan and if there's a promising outsider... well there's always marriage or adoption.

It's not ideal... but I do not want to snub the marchers further or we will never get this integration done and their influence at the grassroots level is much more dangerous than fundamentally minor shifts on the rarefied highs of kingship.

It still vastly lessens the leaders pool when compared to 'every chief in the realm', each of whom is filtered along the way, thus removing the cases of "three heirs, one is moron, others are assholes who should be half-exiles not heirs".
It's not ideal, but full hereditary takes every downside and makes it worse while losing all the upsides. Gives some upsides (like ability to diplo-alliance and all), but we are largely playing Switzerland style so we do not really need those.

EDIT: Neither Magrwynnor Gwygo nor...nor ANY of our Heroic chiefs would get crowned under hereditary. Our meritocracy is responsible for large, large parts of our successes. Like, for example, the whole inoculation thing is in a big part made by Bynwyn...who, as a shaman, would never ever be the king otherwise.

veekie · May 12, 2017

Candesce said:
Keep in mind, we just saw Attrikwyn's thoughts going in; he's trying very hard to be of benefit to the entire people, even though it's costing him.

Ignoring his advice... well.

We're going to be getting a long-term problem either way.

He is trying very hard. He is also wrong because he's starting from different base assumptions.
Look at this line:

Academia Nut said:
On the other hand... on the other hand if he were in her position he wouldn't have even asked for the council to attend, he just would have done it, because the advantage was just too great..

This is what his personal values say he should do. Immediately marry all of them to his descendants, cementing the power within his family.
This is what the decision would incentivize and set a precedent for.

BungieONI said:
How sure are you that it is an honor trait and not a social one?

Because of this:

To let petty personal issues get in the way of proper governance and what was best for the People was what his family had fought for for generations, and to let a personal grudge get in the way of what was best for the People would dishonour his ancestors immensely.

I believe we have the name of the Family trait now:
Ancestral Honor

BungieONI said:
I could be tempted to switch my vote. I really don't want to snub him, because his advice is good. But we've been de facto hereditary for a while now and I don't really see how this would change that de facto status. Can you convince me otherwise? I'm willing to be.

Current situation is:
-Chief families have more favors built up over the generations. They are rewarded for marrying other chief families, as that is the most optimal way to accrue favors from influential people.
-Chief families are not specifically encouraged to marry other chiefs. It just happens because they share social circles, so they tend to marry because that's who they meet as they hit their teens.
-Chief families are not specifically discouraged to marry non-chiefs at all.
-Chief families do not usually marry cousins.
-Magwyna's son is not expected to become King, though he might.

After the decision, the situation is
-Chief families are expected to marry other chief families. It becomes the norm rather than an emergent phenomenon.
-Chief families are discouraged from marrying out of caste. This will increase class stratification as well.
-Chief families in the next 2 generations will be preferentially marrying 1st cousins as they establish links to Magwyna's son.
-Magwyna's son will be strongly expected to become King, because nobody will be able to compete with his social status.

2xMachina · May 12, 2017

DragonParadox said:
Write-ins are not allowed.

Yeah.... Honestly, not liking any of the choices.

VoidZero · May 12, 2017

I will just throw this out there as no one rised it.

The king marrying all the ladies will legitimize harem. Harem is system from which breeds household intrigues that increases evil rating for nobles.

If the option is voted in, then future kings will be required and expected to marry everyone to increase ties.

ctulhuslp · May 12, 2017

NotAlwaysFanfic said:
Not true. The fact that our political caste wont see each other as direct enemies, and instead as just rivals, is a bonus, and has the potential to cut off the more brutal parts of politics off in the future. After all, you're not going to assassinate your second cousin just because you're both running for the same office, are you? And on the note of of future Magwynas, worst case scenario they can just marry in the political family and boom, they can become a chief and then king.

> you're not going to assassinate your second cousin just because you're both running for the same office, are you

lol

lol

Open a goddamn history book.

Skjadir · May 12, 2017

[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
[X] The People always let in those that come to them (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

hope we hold onto our current leadership system as long as we can. It is much better for us than anyother system.

tryrar · May 12, 2017

VoidZero said:
I will just throw this out there as no one rised it.

The king marrying all the ladies will legitimize harem. Harem is system from which breeds household intrigues that increases evil rating for nobles.

If the option is voted in, then future kings will be required and expected to marry everyone to increase ties.

.....so you're advocating to send them packing then?

2xMachina · May 12, 2017

VoidZero said:
I will just throw this out there as no one rised it.

The king marrying all the ladies will legitimize harem. Harem is system from which breeds household intrigues that increases evil rating for nobles.

If the option is voted in, then future kings will be required and expected to marry everyone to increase ties.

And Myg will be Gyg2

And conflated together to be the ancestor of everyone.

tryrar · May 12, 2017

Skjadir said:
[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
[X] The People always let in those that come to them (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

hope we hold onto our current leadership system as long as we can. It is much better for us than anyother system.

We won't be able to do so much longer really. this is the BEST time to switch guys!

CatOnTheWeb · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Which i much better than Full Hereditary because it allows a way bigger pool of candidates, along with filtering outright morons because those can't become local Chiefs who are the only King candidates.
We will lose our ability to tell Abysmal leaders to fuck off with full Hereditary. That's going to fuck us over.

We're still going to have an elective system though. Moving into Full Hereditary doesn't mean we take up primogeniture (first born = right to rule), it just means we're moving into something like a tanistry. There is a limited pool that future chiefs can come from, and they're are chosen from that pool. Kings will still come from out chiefs, because that's how things have always been done. This is shifting our government on pretty good terms, instead of pushing it off to later for potentially worse options.

BungieONI · May 12, 2017

veekie said:
He is trying very hard. He is also wrong because he's starting from different base assumptions.
Look at this line:

This is what his personal values say he should do. Immediately marry all of them to his descendants, cementing the power within his family.
This is what the decision would incentivize and set a precedent for.

Because of this:

I believe we have the name of the Family trait now:
Ancestral Honor

Current situation is:
-Chief families have more favors built up over the generations. They are rewarded for marrying other chief families, as that is the most optimal way to accrue favors from influential people.
-Chief families are not specifically encouraged to marry other chiefs. It just happens because they share social circles, so they tend to marry because that's who they meet as they hit their teens.
-Chief families are not specifically discouraged to marry non-chiefs at all.
-Chief families do not usually marry cousins.
-Magwyna's son is not expected to become King, though he might.

After the decision, the situation is
-Chief families are expected to marry other chief families. It becomes the norm rather than an emergent phenomenon.
-Chief families are discouraged from marrying out of caste. This will increase class stratification as well.
-Chief families in the next 2 generations will be preferentially marrying 1st cousins as they establish links to Magwyna's son.
-Magwyna's son will be strongly expected to become King, because nobody will be able to compete with his social status.

Thank you veekie. This cements the switch I made.

*bows* you are a wise spirit.

*goes to sit before the spirit fire in Crow's shadow*

So Master Crow what have you to tell me...*goes to other things*

2xMachina · May 12, 2017

I.. have a strong temptation to just get them to marry each other

ETA50M · May 12, 2017

BungieONI said:
Well...

It would bee one powerful family, we are a basically intermarrying to create one big family. Also that interbreeding thing veekie brought up I want to avoid like the plague.

Yeah but it'll be a giant family with choices for who leads amongst them rather then having an idiot inherit with us having no input. Besides there will always be a space for the talented to still be chosen as chiefs. Our leadership choices are the Marches, Establishment and Meritocracy, what happens now is that the Marches and the Establishment will fuse into one. However this increases the heroic potential of the establishment thus leading us to choose them more however we will always the choice of picking a newcomer at the cost of 1 Stability.

Kiba · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
"Defending my ally" is absolutely a valid casus belli. "Helping my ally to attack their enemies" is not as good, but we at least would face a choice between helping them (and sticking our people into offensive war) or not helping them (straining relations and making the alliance less reliable).
Like, we've got this far by carefully being neutral unless not being so benefits us; alliance would take away parts of our ability to choose, or at least penalise the choice to remain neutral.

Blackbirded.

ETA50M said:
Considering the war only stays within the lowlands and the HK has never been directly attacked I'm sure we'll be fine. However it's a dead argument and luckily we have an endless hoard of nomads to fight against.

The TH did tried to raid them for a time. So did the DP. Both got their asses kicked.

VoidZero · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
.....so you're advocating to send them packing then?

Did you not notice my vote? :facepalm:

I'm taking the guy's advice to spread out the marriages to the existing ruling families.

It's the middling option from my view.

veekie · May 12, 2017

VoidZero said:
I will just throw this out there as no one rised it.

The king marrying all the ladies will legitimize harem. Harem is system from which breeds household intrigues that increases evil rating for nobles.

If the option is voted in, then future kings will be required and expected to marry everyone to increase ties.

We already have past Heroic Kings with multiple wives. Mr "I can't bang all four of your daughters at once, Mr Foreign King, there's only one dick!"
Crwiid also has one. Our People don't particularly mind how many wives you have provided everyone is Harmonious about it

However, marrying them to Magwyna's son WILL create a Harem anyways. Magwyna will be an obvious political fiction, as they can't really get pregnant, and will confer no status to their children if they did.

Andres110 said:
Not for us. We don't have to fear constant war. All the walls will do will give us its disadvantage, which is making Enforce Law harder.

Which would be very relevant if we ever used Enforce Law. Our Centralization is too high for it to be beneficial.

DragonParadox · May 12, 2017

2xMachina said:
I.. have a strong temptation to just get them to marry each other

They are both already married and happy that way.

Fumbles · May 12, 2017

[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

ctulhuslp · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
We won't be able to do so much longer really. this is the BEST time to switch guys!

[citation needed]
We were told that we totally should switch to shitty hereditary systems time and again; we endured and got awesome Elective Provincial Kingdom.
We are totally able to do so for much longer unless you have some proof that we totally are doomed to switch to suboptimal garbage despite us repeatedly not doing so in the past of the quest.
Like, so far this assumption that we have to switch to full hereditary monarchy is baseless at best, contradictory to the previous parts of the quest at worst.

veekie · May 12, 2017

VoidZero said:
Did you not notice my vote? I'm taking the guy's advice to spread out the marriages to the existing ruling families.

It's the middling option from my view.

Uh...you're taking the guy's advice to take the harem and make it standard...

Skjadir · May 12, 2017

tryrar said:
We won't be able to do so much longer really. this is the BEST time to switch guys!

Let´s just say that i don´t believe that we have to and i think the though that we will have to become an "normal" kindom" is really stupid.
Our Values as they are right now don´t support it.

CatOnTheWeb · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
> you're not going to assassinate your second cousin just because you're both running for the same office, are you

lollollollollollollollol

Open a goddamn history book.

I'm sorry, did most cultures where that happened regullarly have a noted investment in not killing the people in power? Assassination is not a part of our political structure and forms of social advancement. Yes it's done for settling grievances and that is used as a front for targeted, malicious kills, but we're not a culture where actual assassinations are politely ignored in the absence of direct evidence.

edit: this was poorly phrased. A lot of times, assassinations happened because, while they were deplored publicly, privately they were often seen as acceptable means of getting power, because there were few other avenues due to the value place in primogeniture. We don't have that. We have a clear system of 'do well at your job, and you'll get promoted,' so actual assassinations will be a rare and infrequent thing at best.

DragonParadox · May 12, 2017

veekie said:
Uh...you're taking the guy's advice to take the harem and make it standard...

You are overstating things rather badly here. One exceptional situation does not a social institution make.

tryrar · May 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
[citation needed]
We were told that we totally should switch to shitty hereditary systems time and again; we endured and got awesome Elective Provincial Kingdom.
We are totally able to do so for much longer unless you have some proof that we totally are doomed to switch to suboptimal garbage despite us repeatedly not doing so in the past of the quest.
Like, so far this assumption that we have to switch to full hereditary monarchy is baseless at best, contradictory to the previous parts of the quest at worst.

Because it's how it was done this era, for good reasons. We won't be able to resist it forever you know

DocMatoi · May 12, 2017

BungieONI said:
We are not aligned with the HK against the Nomads. We basically got gifted a whole buttload(*snerk*) of women and we can make alliances for them.

we got 2 hogsheads of noble daughters

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