Sounds like NOPE to me, although I really would like to make friends with Atrikwynn.
Technically, we can; practically, we knew from the start that we need better communications to better integrate Northen provinces, and yet didn't take the boats once since we've acquired March. Actions are our rarest resource, after all.
I mean, were our chiefs ever influenced this way? Ataturk is talking from his northern perspective, with patriarchy, hereditary inheritance and whatnot. It may not apply to other chiefs, about whom he does not really know all that much.
Faair enough, I guess? I mean, I still am leery of this alliance, because you can't have both meritocracy and hereditary kings dynasty.
[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
All this does is cements Mag's family as a choice for chief rather then her being a special one off. Plus helps us with our lack of women in the Northern provinces. I'm guessing we should be expanding boats since it doesn't fall under expansion and expand more Carrion Eaters.
[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
We have been avoiding official hereditary crap and the things associated with it for a long time now. Currently it's only semi-hereditary, which, yeah, it's partially hereditary, but that's still better than full hereditary.
[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
Let's throw him a bone. It's also not bad advice, I think. Though the Queen getting a bunch of wives is pretty amusing ...
[X] Encouraging people to leave the lowlands might help with the problem (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ)
I'm sure everyone is shocked that I would choose this.
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Eehhh.... don't really like the way it's going. Looks like we're gonna be forced to be hereditary....
Then, with bad luck, we'd roll an idiot for king.
True, but in our case a meritocracy means being insular and hereditary gives us powerful diplomatic options.
Keep in mind, one of the ways our traders and such maintain wealth at the moment is through vast family ties. This is very much par for the course in the area, it seems.
I'm not 100% sold on it either, and I'm not trying to make you such, but it is a trade off one way or another, and we can't pretend other civilizations do not exist.
[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
What? The true thunder horses carved thunder speakers while maintaining city state system? With strong walls no less.
We have very big problem there.
And now we are aligned with Highland Kingdom against nomads. How does this work? Nomads are north-west and HK are South-East.
Anyway, we might pull HK apart, devour the pieces then content against DP and TH in the fertile lowland.
We will eventually pull them apart, by doing this we set the stage. I actually don't think we have a problem from the Thunder Horse, because I think they still follow the Pact we made centuries ago.
We are not aligned with the HK against the Nomads. We basically got gifted a whole buttload(*snerk*) of women and we can make alliances for them.
When more tribes come then we can maybe call on the HK, but we really don't need to.
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Eehhh.... don't really like the way it's going. Looks like we're gonna be forced to be hereditary....
Then, with bad luck, we'd roll an idiot for king.
It's okay, this is not De Jure hereditary in my mind. It's De Facto, the system we've been using for the last couple of centuries. What De Facto means is that a good and skilled person can just walk into the leadership with their skills. And if they can do it that means they actually do have something to add.
I also agree that Family First is probably their only Social value.
I mean, were our chiefs ever influenced this way? Ataturk is talking from his northern perspective, with patriarchy, hereditary inheritance and whatnot. It may not apply to other chiefs, about whom he does not really know all that much.
The power of Heroic Diplomacy
Salt Gift did not budge it.
Economy 5 (+2)
The new settlements paid for the Economy costs
Stability 2 (optimistic)
We lost a point to electing her, and then she immediately got us a point back.
Centralization 4->3
We gained a point from New Trails and lost two points to new provinces.
This opens up the option for Double Main Trails.
Hierarchy 6
Hmm, unchanged despite admin upgrade.
Art 7->10
A point of art from the Holy Site expansion for literacy and stability. Two points from Mystic Overflow, unless it's two points fromm Salt Gift and we're going to see Art overflo when the Mysticism converts
Mysticism 10->14 (max, overflowing) (+2 Art)
And we got more shamans than we know what to do with as we gained 2 points from new settlements and their holy sites, as well as 2 points from the Expansion.
And with horse based messengers, we have cut the communications problems dramatically.
This was our Admin upgrade, which coupled to the New Trails, brought the March much much closer.
Seeing only one way to really shut him up, she began to put the pieces together to push for election as the next heir. It was... not exactly easy since it involved getting a lot of people who weren't necessarily that interested in supporting her to do so, but she had connections, and the more she pushed the more connections she developed.
Of course, once he got wind of things Attrikwyn began his own push back, but Magwyna was simply better at him at this sort of thing, and while it exposed numerous factional tensions, it also forced the airing of grievances.
*Squelching noises of being run over by a Heroic Diplomat*
The northern provinces wanted increased investment and protection as they were feeling a bit ignored by the older and more prosperous southern provinces, who were safe and protected by attack by both terrain and the northern provinces themselves. As such, when she actually became heir Magwyna began a reorganization of policies to provide more resources towards further settlement, and while there were significant resources that went off to the east to begin settling the dry and mostly untouched hills and poorly water plains there, resources also went towards a new settlement on the coast west of the Black River, which would significantly improve access for boats moving up and down that great river system, further tying together the People and their most distant province of the Stallion Tribes, even as better trails were pushed out to the more distant settlements that the People had been settling in recent generations.
And here we have the basis for their grievance. We've invested a great deal of efforts into mostly southerly megaprojects, especially Valleyhome, with little for them.
I'd also note here that it DIRECTLY disproved my assertion that Black River Province might make things worse.
We'd need to push out more trails if we don't want this to be the seed of new problems. Double Main time?
Magwyna also saw to further resources being sent to the holy sites in the north, so as to both provide further evidence that the south cared about them, and to increase the number of literate people who could explain the law and provide spiritual guidance and reassurance.
That all of this provided more provincial chiefs and high level shamans who personally owed her major favours, and also brought an influx of people from the south to the north, well, a good administrator always knew how to get multiple objectives done at the same time.
Which answers the question of "How do you bring Southern Culture to the North?"
With "Build Holy Sites that can only be filled quickly by shamans from the South, who will read and teach the people"
When she actually ascended to the mantle of king forty winters after her birth was when Magwyna really got going, by ordering a fifth of the total salt output from the saltern to be set aside for a period of five years. From the small mountain of the precious white stuff gathered together, she then ordered caravans to carry them out to their various trading partners to bring to the various leaders of the groups they interacted with as a grand gift - and display of the People's prosperity. It was of course also a rather targeted thing, in that while a number of nomadic tribes received gifts, others did not, and perhaps most significantly the rebelling province in the Highlands Kingdom was directly snubbed in favour of the actual king, which by all accounts helped accelerate the ending of the war there.
Heroic Diplomacy. She even helped us pick the optmal targets!
And she shanked the shit out of their rebellion by dropping a cartload of gold.
The snubbing of certain tribes in favour of others also triggered a brief rush of angry raiders who slammed into prepared defences and were also stabbed by the rewarded tribes who weren't interested in losing out on potential future gift/pissing off the people who would just give up large quantities of salt to show how powerful they were.
...hell, she even set up an object lesson in why raiding us is dumb at one go.
Magwyna couldn't really fight and definitely couldn't lead men in battle, but she had a definite eye for talent and knew how to simply give competent people a task and get to it, and for all that he vexed her, she had told Attrikwyn what she wanted to happen and he had got it done. That he had benefited greatly from it in terms of battlefield accomplishments and demonstrating to the People depending on him that he was still a significant player went a long way towards his easing up on criticizing Magwyna in council.
Martial Glory!
And delegation is key, so he used his great martial to beat the SHIT out of the Nomad raiders who dared, because she already told him they're coming years before the raids kicked off.
Of all the salt gifts though, the oddest one was the one that went to the Thunder Speakers, because it ended up going to the Thunder Horse. Their eastern cousins had pounded them in the face enough that they had capitulated and requested vassalization, presenting the Star Axe they had hidden away centuries ago to the king of the Thunder Horse as part of their capitulation.
...as I said two turns ago "the lowland situation could reverse at any time".
Well, it did. But wut.
While this meant that meant that the salt gift caravan took years to return from their trip, they were also quietly escorted further east than anyone thought possible, up into hot hills at the base of snow capped mountains, finding cities that had been conquered ages ago by the Thunder Horse and made to serve them. The Eastern Thunder Horse were very different from their western cousins, having taken up a role somewhat similar to the elite warriors among the Xohyssiri but were also the ruling kings of their cities. They were also very much a dis-unified group, each city essentially being its own kingdom that would gladly fight its neighbours, although with each having a large wall they had eventually come to something of a mutual agreement to raid further afield rather than fight each other, although the Thunder Speakers declaring their loyalty for one of these kings would probably result in their breakaway within a generation or two as the balance of power caused in-fighting. Of course, the Xohyssiri were still going to be freaked out by two of their biggest threats joining forces together.
Oh, they went Manchu China. Conquered and took over as a cavalry ruling class, but largely leaving everything else alone.
Also they have developed automatic City Walls. Probably by walling every single settlement up.
One of these days we should really leave Defense Policy on for a while to get that. It's a huge boon.
Meanwhile, we can expect them to break up again soon. Unless they don't. Freaking lowlands.
The traders also discovered that somehow cotton came from even further East, from a hot and wet land to the south-east beyond mountains and barren places without rain and the riotous tribes of herders that lived within them. They also learned that there were other passes to the north through the hills and mountains and sometimes the Eastern Thunder Horse had attacked the Thunder Speakers from the north rather than the south.
That is very far away to bring soft fluffy textiles, and now we know there is a Steppe route to the Eastern Thunder Horse.
And then the blue plague started to boil up out of the lowlands once again, at which point the People could only sigh over the fact that their neighbours probably weren't maintaining proper hygiene. It did turn their shipments of salt into something even more ridiculously valuable to their neighbours even as the People straight up ignored the disease this time. It's only point of entry was the cleanest part of the Land.
Ymaryn: "Hey guys, hows it going? Oh dear you haven't been keeping the water clean and everyone is shitting themselves to death again? Here, have the rare and expensive ingredients for the magic potion to cure it FREE of charge!"
Still, it meant that when the return gifts by their neighbours to demonstrate that they weren't total losers who couldn't also make impressive gifts started to come back, they were extra special. Rare and exotic goods and treasured spiritual artefacts - although those would probably be 'regifted' back to their original owners within a few years - and just about everything else that could be scrounged up to demonstrate strength and prosperity.
Salt Gift Rewards: +3 Diplomacy, +3 Art, +2 Prestige, +2 Mystic
Disease Crit turns to +1 Stability rather than further advancements
Everyone else: "What the fuck, you guys. Here take all our shiny. Thanks for saving us."
*After our guys leave*
Everyone else: "It's uncanny, how did they KNOW we needed this?!"
"Quite. Now, let us make introductions here," Magwyna said, going around the council to give a full formal introduction between all the relevant groups and the foreign delegates, where it quickly became obvious that the young women at the centre of all of this were the daughters of powerful chiefs and leaders, with by far the most significant one being Fordenna, the eldest daughter of the current heir of the Highlands Kingdom.
"Now, while the marriage proposals to me are somewhat amusing, there are a couple of ways that we could resolve the situation, the most obvious being that I do have a young son of more or less marriageable age, there are deeper issues here. A marriage between my family and the family of a foreign king has implications, which include increased support for the People against mutual enemies, but also includes support of my family by a foreign kingdom. While I can guarantee that I have raised my children better than to accept support from an outside king in a bid to take the throne, the same cannot be said of any hypothetical grand-children or great-grandchildren. The obvious path to avoiding this situation is that I marry these women, avoiding the worst possible snubbing of our neighbours and securing a short term alliance for the People, but avoiding the possibility of heirs and the long term securing of family alliance. Attrikwyn, one of the reasons that I called for you personally to be part of this council was that the Stallion Tribes have somewhat greater experience with these complexities," Magwyna explained, turning to her old rival at the end.
He liked to cast her ways of being charming, personable, and persuasive as being 'seductive' and challenged the legitimacy of her advice and achievements.
Inner Attrikwyn: "I knew it, she was just too damned sexy. Now she has seduced everyone! EVERYONE!"
Finding himself the centre of attention, Attrikwyn found his heart unsettled. On the one hand, here was the upstart woman who had made it her mission to vex him in years past and had snatched the position of king away from him. Even if she had made it up to him later in many ways, that would always be an old wound for him. On the other hand... on the other hand if he were in her position he wouldn't have even asked for the council to attend, he just would have done it, because the advantage was just too great... and now that he was thinking about it, Magwyna had probably summoned him here because she knew that was what his reaction would have been. But he also knew that her asking for his expertise was in fact legitimate and made in good faith.
Yeesh, that would not have been nice. It'd have spawned a recurring problem down the line.
As he settled back down, Attrikwyn grit his teeth slightly as he all but said outright that it should be Magwyna's family that should be kings going forward. It galled him... but it was the right thing to do. To let petty personal issues get in the way of proper governance and what was best for the People was what his family had fought for for generations, and to let a personal grudge get in the way of what was best for the People would dishonour his ancestors immensely. Especially if snubbing the foreign chiefs brought a cessation to the peace his family had fought for. Nomads would always raid, but Magwyna had helped him keep the worst of it down for at least another generation, and if he had let his pride have him give advice that might cause a flare up of fighting that would fall upon the Stallion Tribes first...
And here we have the difference in values. He DEFINITELY has the Family Honor value here coloring his perspective.
Now for the options:
Marriage Proposals
[] Turn them away, this is too complicated (-1 Diplomacy, chance of conflict with the nomads and/or Highlands Kingdom, war has a chance of triggering stability drop due to the People sort of starting it)
This wouldn't be pleasant at all. Rejecting gifts is just not done unless you want a fight.
[] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
This will simply remove any thoughts of royal families and succession from the case. The myths will become WEIRD.
[] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
This will give us the Family First Honor Value, and change our leadership to be more strongly hereditary. For obvious reason I'd prefer not to do this.
Family is not how we determine leadership.
This is striclty short term gains for long term woes. Heck, we can't even use the Diplomacy. +2 Diplomacy and the Saltern will cap us out at 12 immediately next turn.
Disease Creates Turmoil
[] The People always let in those that come to them (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
Minimizes risks, takes in small amounts of refugees without hurting our ability to resolve the Stallion Tribe issues.
This means we can focus entirely on New Trails next turn to solve the connectivity issues
[] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Get a bit greedy since we have a buffer to work with. Also amazingly snide, which is tempting.
[] Encouraging people to leave the lowlands might help with the problem (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ)
This goes for trying to Restore Order next, but gives us enough funds to jump into a megaproject.
My vote:
[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
[X] The People always let in those that come to them (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
After spending so much trouble trying to keep hereditary power from happening, I'd prefer not to create a royal family.
Yes, it doesn't change the system of rule outright. But it makes it much EASIER to slide into formal Monarchy.
[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
#GIVEMAGWYNAAWIFEPAGE1275
Actually, another important point: it will obligate us to defend HK. Do you honestly want to participate in the Lowland Meatgrinder?
Alliance ties go both ways, and fuck no I am not sticking our people into that.
[X] Magwyna should marry them personally (Secures alliance with Highlands Kingdom while Magwyna lives, has a small chance of triggering conflict with the nomads)
[X] The People always let in those that come to them (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
And then the blue plague started to boil up out of the lowlands once again, at which point the People could only sigh over the fact that their neighbours probably weren't maintaining proper hygiene.
[X] Take Attrikwyn's advice (+2 Diplomacy, secures enduring alliance with Highlands Kingdom, ensures no attacks from nomads for at least next turn)
[X] Remind people along trade routes that the People don't suffer the blue plague (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
This is striclty short term gains for long term woes. Heck, we can't even use the Diplomacy. +2 Diplomacy and the Saltern will cap us out at 12 immediately next turn.
This will give us the Family First Honor Value, and change our leadership to be more strongly hereditary. For obvious reason I'd prefer not to do this.
How sure are you that it is an honor trait and not a social one?
I could be tempted to switch my vote. I really don't want to snub him, because his advice isgood. But we've been de facto hereditary for a while now and I don't really see how this would change that de facto status. Can you convince me otherwise? I'm willing to be.
The power of Heroic Diplomacy
Salt Gift did not budge it.
Economy 5 (+2)
The new settlements paid for the Economy costs
Stability 2 (optimistic)
We lost a point to electing her, and then she immediately got us a point back.
Centralization 4->3
We gained a point from New Trails and lost two points to new provinces.
This opens up the option for Double Main Trails.
Hierarchy 6
Hmm, unchanged despite admin upgrade.
Art 7->10
A point of art from the Holy Site expansion for literacy and stability. Two points from Mystic Overflow
Mysticism 10->14 (max, overflowing) (+2 Art)
And we got more shamans than we know what to do with as we gained 2 points from new settlements and their holy sites, as well as 2 points from the Expansion.
After spending so much trouble trying to keep hereditary power from happening, I'd prefer not to create a royal family.
Yes, it doesn't change the system of rule outright. But it makes it much EASIER to slide into formal Monarchy.
Well... actually. If someone attacks them we will need to protect them, because I see that as a Causus Beli. However, that would count as a defensive war which means we can if we truly need to and the situation is dire, kick it a little.
This vote basically comes down to one question "Do we want to make friends now? Or later?" Because we are making friends. I think SV would be okay with protecting our friends, no?
