I think it's relatively likely that Kagome was mixing up his timelines and these don't exist
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
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- The Void
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- She/Her
I'd assume that if we where interested in keeping AMITY around after pulling of necromancy that we could just replace Akatsuki. We're going to be the biggest group of S-rankers even if we only bring back Jiraiya.
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- United States
@Paperclipped @Velorien
Can we take this as confirmation that Hozuki's Mantle also applies armor rating against energy attacks instead of just physical damage?
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- He/Him
It says "any attacks" so I presume that means both energy & physicalJutsu Doc said:
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@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien
How does armor interact with Elemental Advantage? PEA is a more effective counter to WDB that GS, but how does that manifest mechanically?
How does armor interact with Elemental Advantage? PEA is a more effective counter to WDB that GS, but how does that manifest mechanically?
- Location
- Washington, USA
Based on this assessment, sounds like we ought to send Hidan to meet the Bladehorrors as a test run of rift-manipulation sealtech, while Mari genjutsus whoever he arrived with into thinking it was a voluntary resignation and recommendation that Hazo be allowed to take his place.
A typical kage has basically the basically reasonable goal of "protect my village", and finds themself in a situation where they can't see any way to do that without either killing foreign ninja, or extending a huge amount of trust to people who have usually been enemies in the past. If killing wasn't (as far as they could tell) necessary to save the lives of people they care about, they wouldn't do it, so in a stable enough equilibrium of international peace, they're not going to be a problem. Konan, Itachi, Kisame, and Pain may be in this category as well.
People like Hidan (and probably Sasori and Deidara) have basically unreasonable goals like "sacrifice to Jashin" (and, at a guess, "turn people into beautiful corpse puppets" and "pursue the art form of destruction"). Killing is necessary to achieve these goals basically by definition, and in a stable equilibrium of international peace, such people are still going to be a problem.
Moreover, if a kage is taken off the board, their successor may be better or worse, but not by orders of magnitude - the role is still going to be filled by someone. Whereas if we kill Hidan, there probably won't be an S-rank high priest of Jashin again for a long time.
A more interesting question, in my mind, is AMITY's stability in the mid- to long-term and what effects it has on that if we take out some Akatsuki members. I have an analysis of this topic whichthis margin is too small to contain I haven't written out fully yet; a longer post on the topic may be forthcoming at some point in the future.
People like Hidan (and probably Sasori and Deidara) have basically unreasonable goals like "sacrifice to Jashin" (and, at a guess, "turn people into beautiful corpse puppets" and "pursue the art form of destruction"). Killing is necessary to achieve these goals basically by definition, and in a stable equilibrium of international peace, such people are still going to be a problem.
Moreover, if a kage is taken off the board, their successor may be better or worse, but not by orders of magnitude - the role is still going to be filled by someone. Whereas if we kill Hidan, there probably won't be an S-rank high priest of Jashin again for a long time.
A more interesting question, in my mind, is AMITY's stability in the mid- to long-term and what effects it has on that if we take out some Akatsuki members. I have an analysis of this topic which
Honestly I imagine some Akatsuki members wouldn't mind it haha. We would just need to have like twice the XP we do currently, first. Easy peasy.
No reasonable interpretation of "protect my people" stretches to "cripplefight all other villages and commit genocide and political cullings in the name of nationalistic pride". The Kage have the choice and the power to seek change. They don't pick that choice. If we were Jiraiya, can you imagine us acting like he did?
Because I don't think we would. If we had top-tier S-rank power we would set the shit in order mighty fast. Heck, we have been and are trying to pull the necessary reforms off without the power and clout necessary, at suicidal odds. There is no ironclad rule that the world has to be shit, its the people in power that make it that way and in a world where many Kage are strong enough they could literally kill their whole village by themselves, they don't have any excuse for not doing what needs to be done, because there are no insurmountable obstacles to just dragging their village kicking and screaming to a better world - which by the way is trivial to imagine. But they would rather treat civilians like cattle and live in shit because shit's all they ever known so shame on them. Inaction towards evil is evil, and so are they.
On the other hand, psychopathic mass murderers like Hidan are awful but at least he doesn't seek power to rule over hundreds of thousands, you know? And again, he is the worst of the Akatsuki by the looks of it.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Could you be more specific? What did Jiraiya do that you are pointing at, and who did what regarding your other points?
He's a cult leader who actively recruits new followers and demanded that Leaf officially accept Jashinism.
If I recall after reporting on the liberator, a place where we saw ninja use chakra to help civilians, to jiraiya. It was destroyed. Presumably since he passed on the information to the group that destroyed them. Although that's more a thing where jiraiya caused bad stuff than something we would be better than him at. Since we chose to tell jiraiya that information, i think even after he expressed to us he thought the liberator group was too disruptive to let live
- Location
- U.S.
I mean, Jiraiya rolled for something:
That's a bit suspicious. Why would he need a poker face if he genuinely doesn't know anything?
Honestly, I felt like this check, and the roll we saw where Jiraiya reported to Hiruzen was both of them trying to keep themselves from laughing or something at the ridiculous idea.
90% of the time when EJ puts stuff like that in his updates nothing was actually rolled and he's just stirring the pot.
Jiraiya did nothing and he was an Essie for decades and the Hokage for some time. That's the thing. I mean, sure, we convinced him to begin tills & fills. He seemed an okay person overall. But he didn't have the traits a ruler should. He did not care one bit about the civilians of Fire, the vast majority of the population he was de facto ruling over - and he did nothing revolutionary once he seized power - which he easily could have. It was simply not on his agenda to do so, or if it was it was not a priority. Of course his reign was cut short because of Nagi Island but he was on track to being just another Hokage, if one receptive towards our ideas and one that we would steer towards idealistic reforms. On his own, he stood for tiny, gradual changes in a world that demands more.
Hiashi's policies if the Collapse didn't happen and he'd ruled longer would have been a disaster for systemic progress on the international stage because he was a fundamentalist that actively pushed for maintaining the status quo and quashing social progress, as well as an arrogant, prideful prick besides. Asuma was full of resentment towards other villages (like how he wanted to eradicate Rock for the Collapse) instead of seeing the wider picture where it isn't them that are the problem but the whole dynamic and the village system. He ordered genocides and stood by while Oro commited atrocities, hiding his head in the sand because he was too weak to enact real change and he refused to push civic reforms that would change that state of affairs, such as if he delegated more power to the Clan Council. And so the list goes. But internal politics are just one tiny aspect and one rife with potential pushback. The treatment of civilians is far more pressing and the inaction there far less forgivable, because most ninja don't give a damn about them so revolutionary reforms could be enacted with minimal opposition.
The thing is, a Hidden Village does not need the resources of an entire Elemental Nation. Forging equipment for and feeding a few hundred ninja does not take many resources. The civilians are dying to chakra beasts, leading shitty lives of subsistence farming and danger, scattered across thousands of miles. Why? What is it for? Why does Leaf or any other village need or want all this territory that they cannot afford to upkeep and protect properly? Its just meaningless ancestral borders on a map, swamped with hostile predators. They literally wage wars over a deathworld wasteland hostile to all that tread on it, in the name of pride and "my village is better than your village". What exactly does it have that is so valuable and essential to waste lives over? Just abandon the useless land, its the people that matter.
As a hypothetical, one groundbreaking reform of a great many that a Kage could push through to advance society and improve the livelihood of literally everyone at minimal cost to reverse the slow collapse of humankind would be to make a single capital city and have their village's ninja relocate all civilians to its vicinity over a couple months because there are not nearly enough people that it would be unfeasible to do so. The entire population of Fire could fit on a fraction of its territory and everyone could feed themselves just fine by farming in peace. They could live in safety and prosper, protected by ninja who would scarce have any significant amount of territory to patrol. Its mutually beneficial too - it would be far easier to conduct censuses and find ninja candidates and the population would skyrocket over time besides, dragging the ninja numbers with it, to the point where territorial expansion would make sense decades later.
Of course no Kage will do any reforms of that scope or think long-term, because they don't care about civilians or anything beyond their tiny little village of superhumans that use their powers for killing and killing only. To have absolute power and not use it to the betterment of society is evil.
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- Location
- Washington, USA
I think if we handed Naruto a credible plan for permanently eliminating Hidan with minimal political fallout, only problem being Goketsu alone not having quite enough firepower, he'd find room in the budget somehow. Already managed to inflict a terminal velocity fall on Hidan during the chase scene after Asuma and Kakuzu died, hard part is getting him to stay down. Just gotta somehow arrange for invading the bladehorror realm to look like a better immediate tactical option for him than sticking around and getting Rasengan'd, or for another such fall to land near the rift and then transport him through it in a bucket, or something like that, then slam the rift shut.
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- Location
- Book Fort
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- They/Them
EJ: "Hm, this conversation feels a little too lighthearted and innocent. How can I add some... spice?"
EJ: >:3
- Location
- Pacific standard
Crun you've made some interesting and solid points, but I'd caution you to think more on the consequences of forcibly relocating people. That's considered a type of genocide alongside just killing people; its part of the reason the response to Isan was so fractured. Many civilians would rather brave chakra beasts they can learn the patterns of and carve out a niche between than chakra humans that are nothing but trauma and unpredictably.
Expect resistance. I think the plan would actually be a large net positive, but would require far more work than you're gesturing at here
Expect resistance. I think the plan would actually be a large net positive, but would require far more work than you're gesturing at here
Well, consider that civilians are helpless before ninja so their opinion doesn't really weigh on the feasibility of doing it when the end goal is to massively improve their lives - catering to their whims here would be like refusing to abolish slavery because landowners don't want to lose their slaves. Exactly like that, really, because it would mostly be the Daimyo who would be disgruntled by the development, not the oppressed peasants living in serfdom. Sometimes doing the right thing is more important than hurting someone's feelings and in real life situations where people live in extreme poverty and daily danger, I can assure you they have far bigger concerns than temporary loss of agency they don't even have.
Plus, even if their opinion did matter, we would be relocating everyone one village/town at a time. This means no one stays behind and in my experience at least, people are primarily attached to people, not places they inhabit. Especially when these places are infested with chakra monsters that kill them on the regular and the migration target promises safety and comfort. As for your "genocide" comment, that only applies to forceful relocation with the intent to eradicate a cultural identity, not evacuating refugees from a warzone to another part of the same country where they are safe. Completely different situation.
I don't think the idea would meet significant pushback from the Clan Heads that matter, either - chiefly because ninja for the most part don't really care about civilians. Granted, in Leaf they are seen as serfs in terms of rights rather than outright slaves to the whims of the strong like in most other villages but their protections are minimal and the clanless civilians outside Leaf proper and maybe major cities are simply not on anyone important's mind, most of the time - if they were, the world would look dramatically different.
While the whole thing would not be a trivial task to pull off, the difficulties would mostly lie in it requiring large amounts of coordinated ninja manpower. So hard to execute properly, yes, but I would expect such a thing to be trivial for a Kage to order and the rest would follow.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Teeny slots to drain through? I don't really see what problem you're seeing there... Can just dump in enough storage seals of water.
- Location
- Pacific standard
No man this is legitimately dangerous thinking. Having the power to trivially overcome their objections and choosing to use it is incredibly dehumanizing. It's saying that what you value, this specific plan to keep humanity alive, is more important than their agency. At a certain point you need to accept that other people value things differently than you do.
MfD is feudal serfdom inflicted on the masses by monsters that create a somewhat literal divine right to power, but has actually avoided the shittiness of having daimyo or village's properly own civilians - they're free to immigrate as they please. Who's going to save the civilian idiot dying on their way to Rock?
This creates a proper slave class, Crun. You don't want that. I don't want that.
Very big positive incentives would do roughly the same thing without any of the shittiness. Maintaining agency is ridiculously important on the national scale.
Something like, 60% or lower taxes in 10 miles directly around Leaf would do the trick. We could pitch it as another test for building an internal tax agency, then laugh as all the civilians in Fire move to a (Pi*(2 miles radius of Leaf +10)^2)-4Pi square mile area around Leaf when they realize it's legit.
That'd cause a whole host of other issues but oh my God those engineering challenges would be fun to fix with ninja magic
Can you describe, in full sentences, the sequence of events that will result is Noburi being able to drain the crabs with zero risk?
A few problems to consider:
- Noburi needs to be in the same Zone, and touching the same water/mist. So unless the crabs are separated from him somehow they can attack him easily.
- If the crabs have any ranged jutsu-like ability at all, they can attack Nobs.
- ES is too slow/dangerous for Hazou to use to build a real cage around the crabs. Hazou can't be sitting helpless near the crabs for the 2 full hours it takes to cage them in
- ES is probably too slow to use at all, since the range is only a few hundred feet, and it takes 10+ minutes to do any significant earthmoving. Long enough that Hazou is very dead.