Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Voting is open
Reader mode
Sir Stompy said:
Assuming that since your minimum size seal is thumbnail-sized, something of smaller caliber than a .50 cal won't be easy to work with it's simple to figure out that one rocket boot won't even be flintlock muzzle energies.

Energy contained in one rocket boot = mgh/2 where m is the mass of the ninja jumping, g is 9.8 m/s^2 for acceleration gravity, and h is the max height you can get to by jumping vertically. Divided by 2 since there's 2 rocket boots in a set

Assume a (male) ninja weighs approx 75 kg, and you can get 4m height by boosting straight up you get ~1500 joules.

A flintlock has 3500-4000 joules of muzzle energy.

That's not even close to supersonic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Those numbers don't seem right.

To start, black powder muskets had muzzle velocities of ~120 to 400 meters per second.

The Springfield model 1861 had muzzle velocities of approximately 430 meters per second; one of the most powerful and widespread muskets.

The Springfield used 0.0323kg minié balls as ammunition.

The equation for muzzle energy is Ke= 1/2*M*(V^2).

.5*.0323*430m/s*430m/s* = 2986 joules

Okay so the more powerful muskets are 6/7ths the bottom of your range for muskets. That might have something to do with why your expectations are off. An equivalent musket, one that's just barely worth mass producing, like the Swedish Land Pattern Musket, clocks in at a solid 300 meters per second, with a .0215kg projectile.

.5*.0215*300*300 = 967.5 joules, well within your calculated range of output from a rocket boot.

This thing should absolutely work.
 
Twinnstars said:
Those numbers don't seem right.

To start, black powder muskets had muzzle velocities of ~120 to 400 meters per second.

The Springfield model 1861 had muzzle velocities of approximately 430 meters per second; one of the most powerful and widespread muskets.

The Springfield used 0.0323kg minié balls as ammunition.

The equation for muzzle energy is Ke= 1/2*M*(V^2).

.5*.0323*430m/s*430m/s* = 2986 joules

Okay so the more powerful muskets are 6/7ths the bottom of your range for muskets. That might have something to do with why your expectations are off. An equivalent musket, one that's just barely worth mass producing, like the Swedish Land Pattern Musket, clocks in at a solid 300 meters per second, with a .0215kg projectile.

.5*.0215*300*300 = 967.5 joules, well within your calculated range of output from a rocket boot.

This thing should absolutely work.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was using numbers for the Brown Bess. Didn't bother looking at other ones. If you're right about those numbers it looks like we're talking about something on the lower end of those ranges of musket muzzle velocity ~160m/s

Which is to say, nowhere close to supersonic. ~320 m/s

I was not saying that it won't be as strong as a low powered musket. I think that's about right actually.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I was using numbers for the Brown Bess. Didn't bother looking at other ones. If you're right about those numbers it looks like we're talking about something on the lower end of those ranges of musket muzzle velocity ~160m/s

Which is to say, nowhere close to supersonic. ~320 m/s

I was not saying that it won't be as strong as a low powered musket. I think that's about right actually.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Gotchya gotchya. The supersonic comment was a quip to demonstrate the reasoning behind guns being better at killing ninja than knives, since they're much faster. I agree it's not likely that this rifle or early iterations of it will actually throw kinetic projectiles faster than sound, I'm pretty sure we need to do the SINS nonsense or research a new seal for that


Edit: I'm going back and forth lol. The speed of sound is only 343 meters per second(hello humidity and pressure differences). RRB might be enough of an upgrade for that. It's gonna be waaaaaay different from normal ballistics though, we might honestly need to look at missiles or torpedoes for inspiration instead
 
Last edited:
coldcutconvict said:
Empty zones have been 25 meters across for bomb tests. The olympic high jump record is 2.45 meters. Why go with 4m assisted jump distance over 12.5m?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We don't care about assisted jump distance for doing energy calcs, we want the unassisted jump. Presumably ninja can easily do 12.5m+ when they go at an angle, and push off the ground. I don't really feel like working it out, but it's passing my Newtonian mechanics vibe test.
coldcutconvict said:
Stacking. Multiple Rocket Boots in separate chambers of a bolt can be activated at the same time as long as the bolt can withstand the force. No drawing :cry:, but to precisely activate at the same time, use stacks of MARS to activate Lesser Barrier formation seals - trip wires - built into the bolt, attached to Rocket Boots inside the bolt. To fire, ARS activates the RB that gives the bolt spin, breaking alignment on all trip wires at the same time, no delay.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We can't stack RBs on ninja, I see no reason why guns would be different.
coldcutconvict said:
Thumbnail sized pieces of paper and extra weight from creating structurally sound chambers slow the bolt down less than the force of additional RBs speed the bolt up. If densified corundum bolts are not strong enough, cast metal bolts over preformed, densified corundum chambers. Or granite chambers, replaced with ESed corundum when the metal is cool enough not to damage it. Seals are ESed in through parts of the corundum. On the surface, the bolt will look like thick rings of metal interrupted by thin rings of corundum.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I can't be bothered to try to parse this. So forgive me if this tangential, but we can't produce corundum anymore. It was a bug in the ES jutsu since patched.
 
coldcutconvict said:
If a zone is 25 meters across and a ninja jumps vertically with RBs, they jumped an unassisted 12.5 - 2.45 = 10.05 meters. Maybe RBs are not intended to let you jump this high, but this is what it says by the rules.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This makes no sense. Ninja don't jump to vertical Zones with RBs. They jump to adjacent Zones. That's horizontal distance, not vertical.

Regardless, by the rules, Zones have no fixed size.
 
Velorien said:
I was promised an orgy-induced heart attack, dangit! Where's my orgy-induced heart attack?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Velorien said:
The Bear glowered down at Mareo. "Are you dense? I don't want you getting murdered, you old fool."

"Bah," Mareo said, flapping one hand dismissively. "I'm a grown man. I can get murdered if I want to."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Velorien said:
"Oooh!" Mareo said, wrinkled old face splitting in a grin. "Hot and dangerous, me likey! I imagine this operation will consist of her manipulating all my tenketsu? Because there's worse things than letting a hot woman strip me naked, tie me down, and run her hands over my entire body."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Later, in Tsunade's office:
"Ma'am, I can say with great confidence that the Bear Summoner's consent to this procedure has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with his trust in my - honest and forthright! - description of your relevant qualifications. Even if he dies on your operating table, he'd consider that an acceptable outcome. Specifically said so, over the Bear Boss's protests, actually."
 
Hazō.
Zealot. Confident. Trusts his intuition. Forms beliefs top down.
Trauma. Deadened feelings. Shallower valleys, smaller peaks. More affected by personally caused or witnessed suffering.
Bleeding Heart. Generous, patient, open minded, forgiving. Values imprinted more deeply than plan directives can sway, chapter to chapter.
Sundowning. Disassociates. Feels confusion, distance from his own reasoning when it blunders - in contrast, invisibly adjusts to overperformance.
Council. High level decisions decided by indiscernible voting body. High functioning mental disorder. All of the problems governments have focusing on long term goals and diplomacy across administration changes, except it is a governing body interacting with individuals who think they are also interacting with an individual. Unfailingly accomplishes low level tasks, making it difficult to distinguish mental disorder from personal failures. Inhuman short term planning in emergencies + access to out of context solutions.
 
Twinnstars said:
Ke= 1/2*M*(V^2)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Working backwards from here, with a target velocity of 345 meters per second, our mass can be:
1500*2=M*(345^2)
(1500*2)/(345^2)= 0.0252 kilograms.

Huh wait that's actually pretty on the dot for an early musket round lmao, and this math means that, if the rocket boot energy calculation is correct, and acceleration over the course of the flight doesn't completely change how the airpressure affects velocity (it totally does), then the initial design with a normal rocket boot seal propulsion would actually break the sound barrier. Huh.
 
Last edited:
Twinnstars said:
Working backwards from here, with a target velocity of 345 meters per second, our mass can be:
1500*2=M*(345^2)
(1500*2)/(345^2)= 0.0252 kilograms.

Huh wait that's actually pretty on the dot for an early musket round lmao, and this math means that, if the rocket boot energy calculation is correct, and acceleration over the course of the flight doesn't completely change how the airpressure affects velocity (it totally does), then the initial design with a normal rocket boot seal propulsion would actually break the sound barrier. Huh.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Gotta love ninja durability ^.^
 
Subsonic vs. supersonic only really matters for surprise if the first shot is on-target, and if it's coming from far enough away that there's time to perceive the sound and start dodging before the bullet arrives, and most of all if there's no indication of imminent danger beyond the sound of the bullet itself.
 
Haven't we already invented a better-than-life silencer to deal with sound/reaction issues? And if our current sound seals couldn't work for whatever reason, couldn't we just design a new one?
 
redzonejoe said:
Haven't we already invented a better-than-life silencer to deal with sound/reaction issues? And if our current sound seals couldn't work for whatever reason, couldn't we just design a new one?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We have silence mines and Banshee slayers, yeah. I'm not certain if the science behind the them have been worked out, but I'm sure the Seals Doc would have them, if so?
 
How fast is ninja reaction time to begin with though, like what amount of time does one need to even be able to think of Substituting away? At what speed would an attack be just undodgeable by virtue of not being able to perceive it in time? If Rocket Boots provide a bonus to Taij etc rolls, then they presumably the speeds involved are still somewhat reactable to.
 
Last edited:
Crunbum said:
How fast is ninja reaction time to begin with though, like what amount of time does one need to even be able to think of Substituting away? At what speed would an attack be just undodgeable by virtue of not being able to perceive it in time? If Rocket Boots provide a bonus to Taij etc rolls, then they presumably the speeds involved are still somewhat reactable to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Distance definitely matters for this question. If it takes 2 seconds for a bullet to hit the target, and its only travelling at half the speed of sound, that gives the ninja target a full second to respond, and all they really have to do is move a foot to the side or whatever. Hell just turning a bit could be the difference between lethal or flesh wound.

Of course if the speed difference between sound and bullet is less, or if the distance is less, the ninja the response window shortens. Thread is aiming for no response time just to be safe because S rankers tend to be full of supernatural bullshit, and also because more speed = more damage so why wouldnt you want to go supersonic.

I say slap a silencer on it and we're good to go. Ninja durability is bullshit but most of the time requires active jutsu which an unaware target wouldnt have active, and an aware target is probably not something we could use a gun on anyways.
 
redzonejoe said:
Distance definitely matters for this question. If it takes 2 seconds for a bullet to hit the target, and its only travelling at half the speed of sound, that gives the ninja target a full second to respond, and all they really have to do is move a foot to the side or whatever. Hell just turning a bit could be the difference between lethal or flesh wound.

Of course if the speed difference between sound and bullet is less, or if the distance is less, the ninja the response window shortens. Thread is aiming for no response time just to be safe because S rankers tend to be full of supernatural bullshit, and also because more speed = more damage so why wouldnt you want to go supersonic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I assume ninja can't just dodge early gunfire at effective range through evasive movements because MFD is not matrix and they are not portrayed to be THAT fast. Reacting to a shot they can perceive is happening, with Substitution etc? Definitely, but that's because there is a trigger mechanism that takes much longer to use than the bullet takes to travel. I presume it would be similar with Rocket Boots, however one would activate them, in that enemies would be able to react not so much to Supersonic Hazou, as to Chuunish Hazou pressing a trigger that they might perceive as being dangerous.

Then again maybe I'm wrong and ninja are that fast.
 
Last edited:
Twinnstars said:
Working backwards from here, with a target velocity of 345 meters per second, our mass can be:
1500*2=M*(345^2)
(1500*2)/(345^2)= 0.0252 kilograms.

Huh wait that's actually pretty on the dot for an early musket round lmao, and this math means that, if the rocket boot energy calculation is correct, and acceleration over the course of the flight doesn't completely change how the airpressure affects velocity (it totally does), then the initial design with a normal rocket boot seal propulsion would actually break the sound barrier. Huh.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it starts out just barely supersonic it'll slow enough due to air resistance that it won't actually out run the sound to the target.

According to a quick google search you can expect to lose 1/2 of velocity at 500m. I don't particularly think these things would be accurate past 100m. So you'd probably want Mach 1.5 to be safe.
 
Do we have vacuum creating seals? Seems like a straightforward way to make infinite range projectiles
 
RandomOTP said:
IIRC, a standard combat turn is 3 seconds, so you should be able to extrapolate from that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thats everything though, not movement/reaction times specifically. So not super reliable. But iirc (most) Zones were.. 30m across? So Athletics 60 gets to move 7 Zones as a Standard and 1 more as a Supplemental, meaning a Jounin generally gets to run 240m in 3 seconds or 80m per second, without using any technique at all - based on that datapoint alone that is. With movement jutsu it can be a lot, lot more, maybe triple that so 240m per second, and they need to be able to react to those speeds too.

Mach 1 is 331 m/s so only slightly faster than an Athletics 60 with Vaccum Step 60 can run. Therefore, Jounin can probably react to and dodge projectiles travelling at that speed, as it should be much easier to merely slide out of their way before they reach you than outrun them, which would itself be maybe feasible for S-rank speedsters? Mach 1 would likely splat chuunin and below though.

Deflecting longbow arrows shot from 30m away with a sword is near the peak of what human reflexes can achieve with any amount of consistency (which is why its a common trope in fantasy), and that's 50 m/s. Sidestepping is much easier than that. So... ninja should be able to dodge gunfire? Maybe? Jounin would likely be able to actively do so based on how Yuno and Squirrel nin were moving at speeds too fast for Hazou (himself a chuunin statline at the time) to perceive as a blur, while Genin/Chuunin would probably need to act reactively to avoid it.
 
Last edited:
coldcutconvict said:
Zones are much smaller in combat, have borders between them and in combat ninja move evasively, not in straight lines. To better understand movement speed, ninja run 20 miles per hour to go long distances. Based on real athletes, sprinting short distances is probably twice as fast, 18 meters per second. Chakra boosting adds AB at full boost, or +10 percent speed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Zones are pretty malleable, depending on the circumstance.

And, iirc, ninja can run 30mph, but they'll be empty of chakra when they arrive to their destination.
 
RandomOTP said:
And, iirc, ninja can run 30mph, but they'll be empty of chakra when they arrive to their destination.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That feels like the kind of statement that... Uh... idr how to finish this sentence.

Distance matters? 30mph for 5m shouldn't empty them of chakra should it? Can they make it to 10m? the full 30? In any case we're talking about a snap reaction in combat, the fact that long distance sprinting is chakra intensive shouldn't affect things.
 
I think trying to pin down precise speeds based on fights and zone size and such quickly gets weird, because for example when jonin fight it's said that it looks like they're just teleporting around faster than the eye can track, which, if taken literally would mean they're moving at like hundreds of miles an hour, even if only in chakra boosted spurts. (Even bog standard human eyes can easily track things like 100+ MPH fastballs etc especially standing at a distance.)

So IMO a lot of things stated for either mechanical simplification or for cool-sounding sequences are going to be questionable for trying to draw hard numbers. It's a similar issue to power scaling threads always coming to crazy conclusions based on one-off feats.

I think all we have hard numbers on are how long ninja can "jog" for and at what speeds.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top