Voting is open for the next 1 day, 2 hours
I think this is the problem. If we make the contract the main thing Hazou bets on, Ami will have successfully shifted Hazou's point of view from "It is unacceptable that you destroy Mari" to "It is unacceptable that you destroy Mari... unless these certain unlikely conditions are met".
I am perfectly fine shifting emphasis less on it. In both scenes even prefacing with "Here's how the conversation went, but I would just rather not make a contract." and brainstorming other ideas.

I'll try editing the plan to reflect such, but if you still don't like it and you don't have the energy to write your own plan just tell me what you'd want in another and I'll write a second one for you. I strongly don't want to put another update off by way of Lore Update.
 
I am perfectly fine shifting emphasis less on it. In both scenes even prefacing with "Here's how the conversation went, but I would just rather not make a contract." and brainstorming other ideas.

I'll try editing the plan to reflect such, but if you still don't like it and you don't have the energy to write your own plan just tell me what you'd want in another and I'll write a second one for you. I strongly don't want to put another update off by way of Lore Update.
Thanks. I don't have energy for planmaking right now. I also really don't like Lore Updates and the pacing issues they cause, but I don't want Hazou to blunder away a chance at actually saving Mari.
The only real chance we have here is Kei telling Ami that she disagrees, and that if Ami does this, she'll just be another person trying to control Kei and rob her of her agency.

Kei has gotten better at telling people to piss off. Hopefully she shows up.

If not, we might need to start evaluating Kei as a threat - at least, someone risky to be around.
This may be a good way to do it, just ask Kei point blank if she wants Ami to destroy Mari (because Ami intends to). Huge risk of backfire though if she says yes.
 
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PSA: There will be a retcon concerning Cannai. Things will improve but not be perfect.

Background:

Cannai was angry because you preempted his role as Alpha when you unilaterally went behind his back to find diplomats to go to Pangolin without talking to him. He is the head of the Dog Clan, international relations are his job, it could endanger the clan for untrained people to be mixing into that arena, and violating pack hierarchy like that is Not Okay. For reference, this is almost the exact same thing as when you sent a letter to Itachi without talking to the Hokage first.

Related entities, for clarity:

  • The Conclave is the meeting of (representatives of the) Clan Bosses from the eastern nations with whom Leaf has contracts. This includes the Pangolin, Monkey, Toad, etc clans.
  • It is happening at an embassy in Pangolin territory.
  • The Crusade is a separate thing – it's effectively NATO for the Clans, an agreement where the Bosses are going to go fight the Dragons and everyone pinky-promises that no member clan will attack any other member clan while the Bosses are away, and that if anyone does then everyone else with attack the offender. This is a proposal that Hazō made and is (as far as he knows) still being discussed in the Conclave.
Details:

In chapter 483 the plan had Hazō approach Cantelope and Cantilever about traveling to Pangolin territory and take up residence at the embassy so that Hazō could reverse summon there in order to participate in future Zoo Rush engagements. I thought this was fresh ground with no antecedents, hence Cannai's reaction. It was then pointed out that no, actually, there is a lot of related action in the past, but most of it was offscreen and nothing was direct enough that it would come to mind. Among other things:

  • You have told Cannai that the Conclave was happening.
  • You have asked him about what's going on at the Conclave, somehow not realizing that there was not a Dog representative there because it's hundreds or thousands of miles away, across two enemy territories, and on the other side of a mountain.
  • We wrote an OOC post in which we said that 'No one you talked to was even remotely willing to entertain the idea.' This pretty much put paid to the idea that this conversation was a green-field operation as opposed to be one of many.
In addition to all of the above, this voting cycle was unusual in that the players wanted to engage with two separate points in the timeline: A continuation of the flashback to the conversation with Ami that ended on a cliffhanger in 482, and also continue the current-day plan from last time. I prefer not to write Ami because I'm not good at it, but @Velorien stepped up and volunteered to write that scene, so we said that it was okay to post a plan for the Ami conversation and also link to a separate plan, either new or the old one. This change meant that if you weren't reading the discussion in order to see that announcement and you didn't read the plan closely then it might be easy to miss the fact that there was more going on than the Ami conversation. (There was some more to it, but those are the critical parts.)

Given the historical context and the potential issues of the unprecedented linked plan structure, we have decided to do a retcon. It will be up in the next day or so, but the basic sequence of history is now assumed to be this:

  1. At some point in the past, at least a couple months ago, Hazō spoke to Cannai about sending a diplomat to Pangolin.
  2. Cannai responded with some variation of "Dogs are pack animals who live close to the land. Traveling such a distance and living among strangers would not only be dangerous but would be miserably lonely. I would never order anyone to do anything so cruel."
  3. In Cannai's mind this meant "He proposed it, I said no. It's done." In Hazō's mind it meant "He said that he wouldn't order it, but if I found someone who wanted to do it then he might reconsider." Adopting a "better to get forgiveness than permission" approach, he went ahead and started asking around.
  4. The dogs he talked to (a) thought the idea was bonkers and universally turned him down and (b) assumed that he must have already gotten Cannai's permission to ask something so nuts, so they didn't go running straight to the Alpha about it.
  5. This continued for a period of weeks. Somewhere during that time, Hazō mentioned what he was doing during family dinner. Mari instantly said "This seems fraught. Have you explicitly gotten Cannai's permission? He clearly isn't actively behind the idea since otherwise he would be doing the asking himself. That means he's either neutral or opposed. If he's opposed and you continue then he's going to be pissed that you're preempting his authority. If he's neutral and you bring him an inappropriate candidate then you may annoy him. Unless you know what he would consider an appropriate candidate, you should talk to him about it."
  6. Hazō may or may not have protested her objection, but he did finally go to Cannai.
  7. Cannai was angry at Hazō for doing this but recognized that it was partially based on miscommunication and no actual harm had come from it. He laid down the law in no uncertain terms and made clear that since Hazō now knew what was what, doing something like this again would mean losing his position as Summoner.
  8. As punishment, Hazō is going to have to spend significant time (exact hours per day TBD but a non-negligible number) patrolling the border with Hyena. It's a boring, unpleasant, nearly pointless job since the border is long, dusty, and things are pretty quiet between Dog and Hyena right now. This punishment will continue until Cannai is satisfied and Hazō should expect it to last a few weeks at least.
EDIT:

I should note that one point raised during QM discussion was that Cannai knew about Hazō's actions from when they started or some time thereafter, and he was giving Hazō the chance to come to him about them instead of being caught out. Whether this was in fact the case is outside of Hazō's knowledge.
 
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This may be a good way to do it, just ask Kei point blank if she wants Ami to destroy Mari (because Ami intends to). Huge risk of backfire though if she says yes.
I think the obvious workaround is to just tell Kei that Ami is planning to destroy Mari in response to her actions re: Orochimaru, and that she seems certain to continue to destroy anyone who puts her in harm regardless of their reasoning. This (addition) seems much more likely to tug at Kei's sense of morality.
 
Thanks. I don't have energy for planmaking right now. I also really don't like Lore Updates and the pacing issues they cause, but I don't want Hazou to blunder away a chance at actual
How's this for a start?
There's room for word count optimization here, but this is the kind of approach I would prefer. Essentially, get Kei's help developing a contract Ami would approve of and/or get Kei to realize exactly what Ami is capable of and willing to do, and hopefully talk her out of it.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 392
  • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami to Kei and Snowflake.
    • Hazou respects Kei's choice to cut ties, so she's welcome to remain uninvolved if she prefers. However, he'd like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable. He wants to know what she and Kei would like to do, and how to best satisfy their, the clan's, and his own preferences.
    • Hazou would prefer no contract be struck at all, and Ami be talked out of murderous retribution.
      • Notably, Ami stated that she'll prioritize Kei's safety over Kei's agency/desires; that'd need to be accounted for.
        • Kei, do you want Ami to kill Mari? Should she kill anyone who poses any risk to you?
      • Could we persuade Ami Mari's survival increases Kei's odds? Orchestrating a Leaf jounin's death could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between clans.
      • If Hazou were to make a deal:
        • Hazou commits to the deal.
        • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
        • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Gouketsu, regardless of consequences.
        • Severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstances...
        • Severe enough Ami would believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei.
        • Palatable to the rest of the clan — Hazou won't commit without their consent.
      • Possibilities:
        • Pledging the Gouketsu Clan's resources to the Hyuuga.
        • Staging an attack on Orochimaru's Basement.
        • Hazou becomes Ami's vassal, directly.
      • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
  • Relay Ami and Snowflake conversations to Akane, Noburi, Mari, and Kagome
    • Was this a play to make Hazou more Ami-aligned? Is any kind of contract actually a viable deterrent? Hazou is concerned of an outside party taking advantage of it.
    • It seems that Ami is projecting her inaction with Kei's bullies onto Mari's actions, and she essentially declared herself voluntarily irrational on the subject.
    • Hazou expects Mari'd be opposed to indulging Ami at all, and might try to handle it on her own, social-spec to social-spec. Hazou trusts her judgement, but he'd greatly appreciate if she looped him into anything she does, preferably before doing it. A showdown between the two could have catastrophic consequences regardless of the victor.
    • Akane, Mari, you've chatted with Ami often. Do you think Hazou handled things correctly?

This may be a good way to do it, just ask Kei point blank if she wants Ami to destroy Mari (because Ami intends to). Huge risk of backfire though if she says yes.
Don't worry, Jashin is on our side.
 
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PSA: There will be a retcon concerning Cannai. Things will improve but not be perfect.

Background:

Cannai was angry because you preempted his role as Alpha when you unilaterally went behind his back to find diplomats to go to Pangolin without talking to him. He is the head of the Dog Clan, international relations are his job, it could endanger the clan for untrained people to be mixing into that arena, and violating pack hierarchy like that is Not Okay. For reference, this is almost the exact same thing as when you sent a letter to Itachi without talking to the Hokage first.

Related entities, for clarity:

  • The Conclave is the meeting of (representatives of the) Clan Bosses from the eastern nations with whom Leaf has contracts. This includes the Pangolin, Monkey, Toad, etc clans.
  • It is happening at an embassy in Pangolin territory.
  • The Crusade is a separate thing – it's effectively NATO for the Clans, an agreement where the Bosses are going to go fight the Dragons and everyone pinky-promises that no member clan will attack any other member clan while the Bosses are away, and that if anyone does then everyone else with attack the offender. This is a proposal that Hazō made and is (as far as he knows) still being discussed in the Conclave.
Details:

In chapter 483 the plan had Hazō approach Cantelope and Cantilever about traveling to Pangolin territory and take up residence at the embassy so that Hazō could reverse summon there in order to participate in future Zoo Rush engagements. I thought this was fresh ground with no antecedents, hence Cannai's reaction. It was then pointed out that no, actually, there is a lot of related action in the past, but most of it was offscreen and nothing was direct enough that it would come to mind. Among other things:

  • You have told Cannai that the Conclave was happening.
  • You have asked him about what's going on at the Conclave, somehow not realizing that there was not a Dog representative there because it's hundreds or thousands of miles away, across two enemy territories, and on the other side of a mountain.
  • We wrote an OOC post in which we said that 'No one you talked to was even remotely willing to entertain the idea.' This pretty much put paid to the idea that this conversation was a green-field operation as opposed to be one of many.
In addition to all of the above, this voting cycle was unusual in that the players wanted to engage with two separate points in the timeline: A continuation of the flashback to the conversation with Ami that ended on a cliffhanger in 482, and also continue the current-day plan from last time. I prefer not to write Ami because I'm not good at it, but @Velorien stepped up and volunteered to write that scene, so we said that it was okay to post a plan for the Ami conversation and also link to a separate plan, either new or the old one. This change meant that if you weren't reading the discussion in order to see that announcement and you didn't read the plan closely then it might be easy to miss the fact that there was more going on than the Ami conversation. (There was some more to it, but those are the critical parts.)

Given the historical context and the potential issues of the unprecedented linked plan structure, we have decided to do a retcon. It will be up in the next day or so, but the basic sequence of history is now assumed to be this:

  1. At some point in the past, at least a couple months ago, Hazō spoke to Cannai about sending a diplomat to Pangolin.
  2. Cannai responded with some variation of "Dogs are pack animals who live close to the land. Traveling such a distance and living among strangers would not only be dangerous but would be miserably lonely. I would never order anyone to do anything so cruel."
  3. In Cannai's mind this meant "He proposed it, I said no. It's done." In Hazō's mind it meant "He said that he wouldn't order it, but if I found someone who wanted to do it then he might reconsider." Adopting a "better to get forgiveness than permission" approach, he went ahead and started asking around.
  4. The dogs he talked to (a) thought the idea was bonkers and universally turned him down and (b) assumed that he must have already gotten Cannai's permission to ask something so nuts, so they didn't go running straight to the Alpha about it.
  5. This continued for a period of weeks. Somewhere during that time, Hazō mentioned what he was doing during family dinner. Mari instantly said "This seems fraught. Have you explicitly gotten Cannai's permission? He clearly isn't actively behind the idea since otherwise he would be doing the asking himself. That means he's either neutral or opposed. If he's opposed and you continue then he's going to be pissed that you're preempting his authority. If he's neutral and you bring him an inappropriate candidate then you may annoy him. Unless you know what he would consider an appropriate candidate, you should talk to him about it."
  6. Hazō may or may not have protested her objection, but he did finally go to Cannai.
  7. Cannai was angry at Hazō for doing this but recognized that it was partially based on miscommunication and no actual harm had come from it. He laid down the law in no uncertain terms and made clear that since Hazō now knew what was what, doing something like this again would mean losing his position as Summoner.
  8. As punishment, Hazō is going to have to spend significant time (exact hours per day TBD but a non-negligible number) patrolling the border with Hyena. It's a boring, unpleasant, nearly pointless job since the border is long, dusty, and things are pretty quiet between Dog and Hyena right now. This punishment will continue until Cannai is satisfied and Hazō should expect it to last a few weeks at least.
Thanks for all your hard work and your dedication to try and be fair. We really appreciate it!
 
well, that is certainly better.
i can see Hazou doing this in good faith, both for his self-interest and for cannai's sake.
in his mind being left out from the greatest coalition in the 7th path must have been worrying for the dog clan, but Cannai, being the great boss he is, won't just order someone to do it for anything short of a war, so he had let it be. Hazou in his capacity as summoner was helping to find someone who would take the risk and wouldn't be as affected by the isolation (better a willing non-diplomat than an unwilling diplomat).
and given that he wasn't talking to foreign enemies but loyal agents this couldn't possibly be treason.
 
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So, too tired to actually write a plan, removed everything but the Ami section, posting it as a proto-plan, if someone finds it useful, feel free to use it.

  • Ami
  • Your answer
  • We're doing basically the same error we did in Mist
  • We reckon we know better, so we behave as if Kei is a variable on paper, because sure, we're allowed to do what we want right? Technically you are allowed to go on a date with Ami, right? It's your agency, right? Bullshit
  • Funny thing about that? We don't. It's the whole point about family. Good family is not allowed to do as they wish.
    • We both know something about bad family
  • "Kei can disagree" is just trying to feel better about yourself. You respect her enough to know she knows that.
  • At the end of the day, Ami wants to hurt Mari because she hurt Kei. Did Ami actually ask? Did she tell Kei to her face she would ignore her will?
    • By all means, she ran the numbers, with Oro defanged, what other possibilities are for Mari to throw Kei, that Kei is not even seeing, under the bus in a situation?
    • the 1% number game? She can feel free to murder all the people more dangerous than Mari, before playing that card. So at least she can be honest.
    • Honestly, between Uplift precommitting to save Kei comes hell or high water, Ami becoming Mari's personal enemy, Kei disowning Mari. The thing she says she want to stop about is dead in the water.
  • She also knows what she must do. What sister are supposed to be.
  • Be your best self, help family grow.
    • Show new, happier solutions. Yes, it's a thankless job, you're basically playing it from the Swamp(With Mari and now Ami too, it seems), Akane aside, because she's objectively perfect.
    • It's exhausting and shitty, welcome to the family.
  • So, let's lay down the choices
  • A) Bring Uplift, including Kei, because we don't get to play the "We know better" card, and decide on a appropriate contract.
    • It will end with Kei being hurt
    • It will possibly end with people being hurt, and Kei being more hurt.
    • It will very rarely, but possibly end in people dying, ending in a extremely miserable Kei.
  • B) Organize a way to help Kei after this miserable situation and help her.
    • Let Kei understand how much she is valued. You'll make clear to Mari that sacrificing Kei means all Goketsu dies trying to save her.
    • Use the meeting to re-affirm the bonds we share and help Kei understand her family loves her.
    • Do something useful. Are you the only person that realize how big of an injury Kei's parents left? How many other injuries are there? Are you all lunatics? Kei's relationship with her parents is a bleeding injury and everyone first thought is to stab each other in the face and hurt her even more.
      • To be honest, if Ami needs self-satisfaction before Kei's happiness, she can go fuck herself. You have nothing to say to her then.
      • If she actually wants to be a sister then you can accept her reasons.
    • Collaborate with Hazou, with Kei's family to stop something like this from happening again, instead of behaving like a passive-aggressive child. She's not Itachi, moving her weight around like a toddler, what? She defeated a Kage and decided being the graceful wasn't for her anymore?
      • These kind of actions stopped being useful in the Swamp, when everyone got attached to everyone, she should know this.
  • C) She can smile, try to stab Mari under everyone back, possibly succeed.
    • Congratulation, in the best case scenario she "just" officially betrayed Kei like no one else ever did. At least other people had the decency to do it in front of her.
    • Moreover, she's doing that for her own self-satisfaction, i mean, fine by you, if she's willing to cast aside her role as her sister for that. You won't betray Kei.
 
Now now let's focus on what's important.
Setting up Lev and Lup on a date with a Hyena for the beginning of a peace-bringing Path-spanning polycule. Of course. Eyes on the prize, people!
 
I'm so glad. This is an entirely reasonable series of events consistent with both prior evidence and Hazou's characterization, and I have no objections to Cannai's punishment - time alone doing unpleasant work gives a lot of time to think about where exactly you went wrong and how to make sure you never do it again in the future.
 
[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 392
  • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami to Kei and Snowflake.
    • Hazou respects Kei's choice to cut ties, so she's welcome to remain uninvolved if she prefers. However, he'd like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable. He wants to know what she and Kei would like to do, and how to best satisfy their, the clan's, and his own preferences.
I'd personally like to do some framing of the conversation. I can see Kei easily becoming sidetracked, and I think that how we present the conversation is very important. I understand that wordcount is a constraint. However, I think something like 'tone: making space for Kei's feelings, but ultimately focusing on delivering information' might be valuable.
  • Hazou would prefer no contract be struck at all, and Ami be talked out of murderous retribution.
    • Notably, Ami stated that she'll prioritize Kei's safety over Kei's agency/desires; that'd need to be accounted for.
      • Kei, do you want Ami to kill Mari? Should she kill anyone who poses any risk to you?
Can we take the word 'murderous' out? If Ami then says 'whoa, I wasn't going to kill her, just disgrace her!' then I'd honestly expect Kei to cling to that. We want Mari unharmed by Ami.

I'd also like to simply ask Kei what she wants. Ami has declared an intended course of action. Does it align with what Kei actually wants? I'm almost tempted to try to lightly frame this as Ami interfering with Kei's life, but I don't think we'll get much traction there for a variety of reasons.
  • Could we persuade Ami Mari's survival increases Kei's odds? Orchestrating a Leaf jounin's death could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between clans.
  • If Hazou were to make a deal:
    • Hazou commits to the deal.
    • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
    • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Gouketsu, regardless of consequences.
    • Severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstances...
    • Severe enough Ami would believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei.
    • Palatable to the rest of the clan — Hazou won't commit without their consent.
  • Possibilities:
    • Pledging the Gouketsu Clan's resources to the Hyuuga.
    • Staging an attack on Orochimaru's Basement.
    • Hazou becomes Ami's vassal, directly.
The 'if Hazo were to make a deal' section reads a bit strangely. Could you explain what you're trying to say? I'm not really clear.
  • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
I would really, really like to take this part out. For one, I don't think it's actually true. If we put Mari in the exact same position again, I expect that there are good odds she'd do the exact same things.

I think that if we want to include something like this, we should frame it as 'if Kei brings up feeling threatened by Mari, talk about...'. That said, I don't know what to talk about other than to point out that Mari is pretty far down the list of actual threats to Kei's safety. She needs to have a kid with Shikamaru - threat. Leaf is at war - threat. Her emotional instability - threat.
  • Relay Ami and Snowflake conversations to Akane, Noburi, Mari, and Kagome
    • Was this a play to make Hazou more Ami-aligned? Is any kind of contract actually a viable deterrent? Hazou is concerned of an outside party taking advantage of it.
    • It seems that Ami is projecting her inaction with Kei's bullies onto Mari's actions, and she essentially declared herself voluntarily irrational on the subject.
    • Hazou expects Mari'd be opposed to indulging Ami at all, and might try to handle it on her own, social-spec to social-spec. Hazou trusts her judgement, but he'd greatly appreciate if she looped him into anything she does, preferably before doing it. A showdown between the two could have catastrophic consequences regardless of the victor.
    • Akane, Mari, you've chatted with Ami often. Do you think Hazou handled things correctly?
I would - wordcount permitting - like to throw something in there where we clearly instruct Mari that self-sacrifice is not an acceptable solution to this problem, both due to the fact that she represents a huge quantity of Goketsu's power and because we love and care about her and because we refuse to allow bad things to happen to members of our clan.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control

I'm planning on writing my own plan, but I think this one is viable, and I really, really don't think that a Lore Update will actually help us any. We aren't going to figure anything out in the interim. We have all the information we have, and we have all the eyeballs on this that we're going to get. That opinion is subject to revision if folks want to commit to effortposting plans for this situation but can't do so until after Thursday, but I'm not expecting anyone to take me up on that.
 
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Everything we know about the Conclave
(TL;DR below)


  • The Conclave is the meeting of (representatives of the) Clan Bosses from the eastern nations with whom Leaf has contracts. This includes the Pangolin, Monkey, Toad, etc clans.
  • It is happening at an embassy in Pangolin territory.
  • The Crusade is a separate thing – it's effectively NATO for the Clans, an agreement where the Bosses are going to go fight the Dragons and everyone pinky-promises that no member clan will attack any other member clan while the Bosses are away, and that if anyone does then everyone else with attack the offender. This is a proposal that Hazō made and is (as far as he knows) still being discussed in the Conclave.

Chapter 438:
"Look, kid," Enma said, pouring himself some tea and dribbling a few crumbs as he bit into the cookie he was holding in his tail. "You seem like a nice guy. Asuma speaks for you, says he trusts you not to lie to him. This idea of yours, that Dragons are real and actually invading? Sounds like moonshouts to me." He caught Hazō's confusion. "Crazy. Utterly bonkers. Still, I've seen a lot of weird stuff, the kid says you're not apt to lie, and the consequences of being wrong are high enough that I'm willing to go along. I'm not going to burn my credibility on this, but I'll talk to Pantsā. I can probably get him to send a Condor to scout out what's happening, and once there's some evidence I'll go in with him on calling a conclave of rulers. I'll show up and say that I'm not sure I believe it but that we should still go check it out. And I'll agree to go myself, to verify it and fight if it's real. That's about the best I can get you."

Chapter 451:
"Good plan. Saving the best for last: The condor scout has reached Arachnid, seen the evidence of the Dragons, and reported back to the Condor Summoner who passed the word back east. The condor in question is now resting up before flying home and the Clan Bosses are having their conclave. I'm not invited, but remind me to check back in a couple days to see what came of it."

Chapter 455:
"I talked to Asuma last night, and the Conclave is still not finished."

Gaku looked up from his notes in surprise. "Ah. So, when you said 'exciting' you were in fact being sarcastic, sir?"

"Indeed. Pantsā is provisionally willing to help but Nezuni and Hyōtauni, the reps for Rat and Leopard, aren't willing to let anyone pass through their land. Enma thinks it might just be a bargaining position, but they're sticking to it hard. Without passing through those lands everyone would need to go north to get around the mountains instead of immediately heading west, and they'd need to pass through Hyena Territory. No one trusts those guys."

Gaku pursed his lips. "Would Turtle be feasible, sir? From what I recall of the map you showed me they have an excellent river network and are able to provide water transport easily."

Hazō shrugged. "It would have been nice, but they didn't attend. I don't know if they weren't willing to go because it was being held in Pangolin or just wouldn't have gone regardless. Still, we got Monkey, Pangolin, Condor, Toad, Otter, Rat, and Leopard. That's more than I expected."

"Not Porcupine, sir?"

"No, and not Slug or Snake either, although I'm not sure if anyone got Orochimaru to pitch it to them.

"In better news, the Toads sent Fukasaku and Shima, the two Toad Sages, so at least they're taking it seriously. Unfortunately, Enma says that they're more interested in negotiating for pipeweed and booze than forming the Crusade. And Condone is still too afraid to speak up because she thinks that if she says anything wrong then Pantsā might murder her and swap in another administrator for Condor Territory."

Chapter 468:
Asuma snorted and shook his head, still looking at the ceiling. "No. That's the wild part: Noburi stays home here in Leaf. There's currently a joint embassy in Pangolin territory where multiple individuals from various clans have gathered. Noburi and most of our other summoners all have contracts with people in that embassy. A summon can carry their summoner physically back to the Seventh Path as long as the two of them work together at it, meaning that two summoners who are far apart on the Human Path can easily get together on the Seventh Path as long as they have contracts with two co-located people there.

"Right now there's a Conclave happening on the Seventh Path. Multiple different Clan Bosses are attending, either in person or via a plenipotentiary. They were smart enough to send along members of their clan that have contracts with the appropriate summoner. It lets us serve as a communication relay for them—for example, Noburi summons the relevant toad and receives whatever messages the ambassador wants to send back to Gamabunta, then he summons a toad who is near Gamabunta and passes the messages on. It's valuable to the Toads but, more importantly it means that we have a single point where most or all of our summoners can easily come together.

TL;DR
We really don't know much about what's going on since it has barely come up in story. We know the general basics of what the Conclave is and who is attending, but we don't know what they are currently discussing or how long it will take for things to wrap up. We can talk to Asuma (or perhaps Kei or Noburi) if we want to know more.
 
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Can I ask how you Guys came up with this punishment?
Erm...brainstorming between us? Not sure how to answer that.

Definetly not because I was imagining Hazou being made to wear a plastic cone around his neck for the next 6 weeks. :V
...okay, that's amazing. I don't think it's practical in-universe, since he doesn't spend a lot of time on the Seventh Path and he's not going to wear it on the Human Path (or, rather, Cannai has no way to verify that he will). Still, amazing.
SC Training: Kei is getting 1.4x, Akane at 1.0x:

Ch 483 (which is technically no longer possible to get SC XP for since 484 was posted, but it was an out-of-cycle update so I hope that gets handwaved) has 3 base XP:

Kei: +4.2 XP
Akane: +3 XP

Ch 484 has 5 base XP:

Kei: +7 XP
Akane: +5 XP.
For my part, I hadn't thought about the fact that ch483 was mostly flashbacks for which XP had already been awarded, and the actual new stuff was only a few minutes and therefore not worth more than 1 XP. It definitely wasn't sufficient time for SC training, so I'm going to kibosh that one, but I'll leave it at 3 XP instead of the 1 it should have been.

I'll let @Velorien rule on SC XP for ch484.
 
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Alright, update read, I am now sad.
"I believe you have missed an essential point," she said. "You have described circumstances under which Mari actively threatened Kei's life, and acted according to a rationale which is unaltered by her loss of connection to Kei. If anything, if Mari accepts Kei's decision, she is more likely to sacrifice her in the future, since her value to Mari will have decreased while yours and that of others will not.

"This leaves Ami with a problem to solve, and two choices of how to solve it. First, she could alter Mari's calculations such that Kei is more valuable than anyone she might be sacrificed to protect. However, Mari is too powerful for Ami to brainwash. Orochimaru or Tsunade might be capable of it, but persuading them to do so would be prohibitively difficult. Nor is it possible to blackmail Mari—clearly, the obvious thought of Ami's vengeance did not stop her in the original event. Persuasion would certainly be a fool's task, since Ami would have no control over whether Mari changed her mind when a new sacrificing opportunity arose. That means the only way is to eliminate everyone who might conceivably be more valuable to Mari than Kei, beginning with yourself.

"Alternatively, Mari must be eliminated, or disabled in a way that would prevent her from exercising her agency against Kei—in other words, made physically incapable of violence or communication in a way beyond Tsunade's ability to restore.
The third option, which is an offshoot of the first, is that we can simply alter Mari's calculations so that some other patsy or patsies are conveniently more accessible to Mari as sacrifices when compared to Kei.

Therefore we should help people develop shinies so that Mari can sacrifice them to Orochimaru on command.
"Mm-hmm," Ami said. "Ami would not be impressed by that argument. First, it's a moot point because if she hadn't offered Orochimaru something really good, she wouldn't have made it out of the compound alive, and nobody would've got anything. Failing to follow through once she was out? Probably even worse. Second, seven Hokage in a row haven't given a toss about crippled ninja. Nor have any other Kage, to the best of my knowledge. It's not like they're hidden in some underground catacomb, you know—every Hokage sees mission reports saying 'X lost her legs and is no longer fit for duty', makes a note, then moves on to the next. No, it took getting a concrete reward—chaining the monster in the Basement—before the Seventh signed up to throwing money at people who couldn't give him anything in return. Ami is a cynic, with very little time for the notion of altruism from those in power.
"Cloud's Akio the Fallen was a genjutsu user who was so obsessed with achieving shinobi perfection that he threw his subordinates into constant training duels. He kept pushing them, even in mid-mission, not noticing—or maybe not caring—that the stress was tearing them apart. And, one by one, they abandoned him. One day, when a relief squad came to find him, he was on his own, drawing match-up brackets on a rock wall as if nothing had happened, talking about how this time, this time he'd planned everything out just right. They say he's still in a hospital in Cloud somewhere, making championships on walls using dead ninja's names.
"Recall that Ami's concern is Mari's initial act of sacrifice. It does not help your case for Ami to think, 'Mari was prepared to risk Kei's life with only a 70% probability that she would die'. Nor 50%. Nor 30%. There is no plausible number that Ami would consider acceptable, insofar as it is only through deliberate mental discipline that she accepts Kei's right to risk her own life by serving as a ninja. Nor is it permissible for Mari to believe that there is such a number.
HAZOU: ...So if Kei had expressed the intention of sacrificing herself in order to save you from Orochimaru, would you have accepted her right to make such a sacrifice?
 
How are Kei and Akane getting positive XP for chapter 483?
Does GM-had-fun XP count towards the XP award considered for SC XP? We've been assuming it didn't, and only the base XP counted.

If it did, then there would be a much stronger incentive to maximize GM-had-fun XP, especially in the long run, and negative updates like this would be even more deeply negative. Otherwise, it would totally be possible for SC training to nullify the effects of negative updates using the base XP alone.
 
The third option, which is an offshoot of the first, is that we can simply alter Mari's calculations so that some other patsy or patsies are conveniently more accessible to Mari as sacrifices when compared to Kei.

Therefore we should help people develop shinies so that Mari can sacrifice them to Orochimaru on command.
That's fucking brilliant. Holy hell.
 
For my part, I hadn't thought about the fact that ch483 was mostly flashbacks for which XP had already been awarded, and the actual new stuff was only a few minutes and therefore not worth more than 1 XP. It definitely wasn't sufficient time for SC training, so I'm going to kibosh that one, but I'll leave it at 3 XP instead of the 1 it should have been.
I'll let @Velorien rule on SC XP for ch484.
Pretty much this. Honestly, since XP is supposed to be synced with time rather than events, and that time has already been accounted for, there shouldn't have been an XP award for 384 at all.

Or, as Minori just put it, bvggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
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