Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
Sir Stompy said:
Yes, I don't think Hazou has those tools. Hazou might be an advanced mathematician by EN standards, but 11th century mathematics is mostly basic algebra and geometry. Looks like the first paper on the mathematics of vortex rings was in the 19th century. That's an enormous gap, you're seriously claiming that the EN is 8 centuries ahead of their IRL counterparts in math? I find that argument extraordinarily unconvincing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
While i have not been following along with the exact proposal or the logic behind it, I would note that this is not as big of a hole as you think.

Yes, detailed and complicated mathematical descriptions tend to be a modern thing, but the people of the past had frequently shown that they are not stupid for lack of widespread systemic knowledge. Or at least, some of them aren't; being a illiterate starving peasant sucks.

If you want proof of that, look at Greek/Roman architecture, where they figured out how to build unreinforced concrete domes by, in addition to many other things, using specific variations in the concrete blend to decrease the weight of higher levels.
Look at the Antikythera Mechanism, a 2,000 year old Greek device used to predict astronomical events with such accuracy that it took into account the non-circular orbit of the moon.
Look at Stonehenge, which is a stack of boulders... ten thousand pound boulders. Stacked on top of each other. With carved slots and nobs reminiscent of legos. And they did it with rope, some logs, and maybe some dug holes.


What does this tell us? This tells us that while no one in our 11th century had any way to use complicated fluid dynamics like vortex rings, if they did they would've figured it the fuck out.

And you know what these guys have that we didn't? Magic wind-creating superpowers. In other words, go ask a ninjutsu expert from Wind, I bet they'll know exactly how to work with vortex rings.
 
Buggy said:
What does this tell us? This tells us that while no one in our 11th century had any way to use complicated fluid dynamics like vortex rings, if they did they would've figured it the fuck out.

And you know what these guys have that we didn't? Magic wind-creating superpowers. In other words, go ask a ninjutsu expert from Wind, I bet they'll know exactly how to work with vortex rings.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
None of your examples involved the kind of mathematical formalism that would translate well between seals and ninjutsu. I have no doubt that they have great Wind ninjutsu in Sand, perhaps even involving vortex rings, but turning that into knowledge that can be applied to a youthanizer is a huge ???. Hazou doesn't even know where to start asking the right questions.
 
Ok... So, its common knowledge tha making projectiles spin make them trave further and faster?
IF yes then we coul give the idea of using kagome's directional charges seal to shape how the explosion comes out and make it come out on a spining fashion
Claymore seal 2.0 is by itself a wapeon to be feared, also would make kagome happy because his student iterated on his work using his methods, afther a rant of how stupid it was to do so of course.

With this unlocked the spining youthnizer becomes feseble.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Ehhhh looking at a basic review about vortex rings this seems unlikely to ever work. I don't even understand what you're trying to do? Set up the macerator to grind up everything so that when it explodes it forms a ring? Vortex rings are formed by two fluids mixing, suspended particles of wood in the air ain't a fluid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I cannot access your link, but just wanted to clarify that vortex rings do not need to be a mixture, they are only a different type of flow, and can also appear in gases.

I think that @Lailoken means to try to blow stuff that is on fire in a way that instead of billowing around the shooter, is carried away by the vortex.

As cool as that would be, there are no videos that I could find on YouTube on such an application, despite lots of vortex cannons. On MfD, with wind cutting jutsus and such, it might be doable.

Still, I am not going to spend time on calculating the correct particle size to wind speed ratio needed for molten metal droplets to be carried on an air toroidal vortex and still arrive hot on target.
 
MrRobot said:
Ok... So, its common knowledge tha making projectiles spin make them trave further and faster?
IF yes then we coul give the idea of using kagome's directional charges seal to shape how the explosion comes out and make it come out on a spining fashion
Claymore seal 2.0 is by itself a wapeon to be feared, also would make kagome happy because his student iterated on his work using his methods, afther a rant of how stupid it was to do so of course.

With this unlocked the spining youthnizer becomes feseble.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think this is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the macerator does. Macerators are storage seals with the stress amplified. What causes the shape of the cloud is the direction of those stresses. Currently those stresses are random, so we get a sphere.

What we would need to do is not shape the explosion as Kagome's directional explosives do, but change the storage stress from being random to being applied in a specific pattern. It wouldn't be related at all to directional explosives, just inspired by them.
 
Shrooms said:
Velorien: makes explicit threat
Thread discussion: geometry
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1- Velorien is a bit of a troll so i will "panik" when i see it.
2 - P R I O R I T I E S

Sir Stompy said:
I think this is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the macerator does. Macerators are storage seals with the stress amplified. What causes the shape of the cloud is the direction of those stresses. Currently those stresses are random, so we get a sphere.

What we would need to do is not shape the explosion as Kagome's directional explosives do, but change the storage stress from being random to being applied in a specific pattern. It wouldn't be related at all to directional explosives, just inspired by them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Good point, this would then fall on the radom assortment of mumbo jumbo and veguely mathematical "science" that the QM's call sealing, hazou is suposed to be good at sealing (like have insight on the cracks of reality that no mortal should have) so once his mind is "un-fucked" i can see being not that hard regulating the vector and speed a macerator project its contents for him but real science have no place on sealing itself.
 
Last edited:
Gev said:
I cannot access your link, but just wanted to clarify that vortex rings do not need to be a mixture, they are only a different type of flow, and can also appear in gases.

I think that @Lailoken means to try to blow stuff that is on fire in a way that instead of billowing around the shooter, is carried away by the vortex.

As cool as that would be, there are no videos that I could find on YouTube on such an application, despite lots of vortex cannons. On MfD, with wind cutting jutsus and such, it might be doable.

Still, I am not going to spend time on calculating the correct particle size to wind speed ratio needed for molten metal droplets to be carried on an air toroidal vortex and still arrive hot on target.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah they happen when two different fluids (like cold air and hot air) mix. My point is that a bunch of wood particles are not a fluid, so you can't really get a vortex ring out of them. The combustion products are a fluid, but what's the point of a vortex ring after the youthanizer explodes? It's not like you'll get more of a blast. Concentrating the fuel in a smaller volume makes the blast weaker, since volume of the cloud determines the moles of oxygen available.

The molten metal thing is a total red herring. Liquid iron is hot enough to burn on contact with the air. If you run it through a macerator, and thereby vastly increase its surface area, it explodes just like a youthanizer.

But we don't need to generate a wind tunnel to carry our explosions to the target, we can just throw the seal. We already know of a wind ninjutsu to help with that, Wind Wall.
 
Buggy said:
Look at the Antikythera Mechanism, a 2,000 year old Greek device used to predict astronomical events with such accuracy that it took into account the non-circular orbit of the moon.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Bear in mind that we still haven't figured out how to replicate it with the technology we know to have been available at the time. It's not like this is an ancient off-the-shelf calculator. It's a unique and fascinating artefact that clashes with our understanding of what the ancient Greeks were capable of based on everything else they left behind.

If you want an analogy, looking at the Antikythera Mechanism and going, "This is the astronomy tech available at this point in history" is like an MfD ninja looking at Orochimaru and going, "This is the biosealing tech available at this point in history".
 
MrRobot said:
1- Velorien is a bit of a troll so i will "panik" when i see it.
2 - P R I O R I T I E S
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
DON'T FUCKING SAY THAT HE'LL NOTICE AN--
Velorien said:
Bear in mind that we still haven't figured out how to replicate it with the technology we know to have been available at the time. It's not like this is an ancient off-the-shelf calculator. It's a unique and fascinating artefact that clashes with our understanding of what the ancient Greeks were capable of based on everything else they left behind.

If you want an analogy, looking at the Antikythera Mechanism and going, "This is the astronomy tech available at this point in history" is like an MfD ninja looking at Orochimaru and going, "This is the biosealing tech available at this point in history".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
OH GOD WE'RE ALL GONNA DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
Velorien said:
Bear in mind that we still haven't figured out how to replicate it with the technology we know to have been available at the time. It's not like this is an ancient off-the-shelf calculator. It's a unique and fascinating artefact that clashes with our understanding of what the ancient Greeks were capable of based on everything else they left behind.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Actually...

Clickspring is a Youtube person who has sadly fallen silent since the whole pandemic thing. However, they make clocks.

This is a link to a playlist of videos wherein they re-create the Antikythera Mechanism using only technology which was known to be available at the time and this is a link to a playlist of videos wherein they discuss the production of the tools used to create the Antikythera Mechanism. As in, 'they would have needed files to produce gears, so let's make some files. I will first produce the tools necessary to create files using only materials and techniques known to exist at that time, then I will produce a number of files, and finally I will demonstrate their suitability by creating gears which I will put in my copy of the Antikythera Mechanism with the files and other tools I've built using similarly rigorous processes'.

Don't get me wrong: it's an outstanding achievement that speaks to a culture of science and craftsmanship in ways which are absolutely stunning, but I don't think that anyone who's put serious time and effort into investigating it really finds it all too incredible that the Greeks were able to produce that sort of thing, nor that they did the math/had the knowledge. They were keen observers of the stars and had traditions of mathematics and engineering. (In period texts, you'll find offhanded references to lathes. They weren't considered particularly special. We don't know what they looked like - there are many competing theories, but none survived - but they had them.)

None of the tools required for clockmaking etc. are tremendously complex. You need to pay attention to detail, certainly, but doing fine work is something that we're pretty good at as a species - at least, our collective capacity to do so is fairly breathtaking. I can talk at length about the sorts of results you can achieve with hand tools starting from more or less nothing. Suffice to say that there's a reason that when Moore's Law started to look a little sketchy (computer control can only take you so far if the physical machinery you're using has an entire micron of slop) manufacturers of silicon picked up texts from long-dead clockmakers to figure out how to increase precision in machines.

(Lest anyone think I'm making that bit about clockmakers up, I attended a lecture by Dan Gelbart, a local billionaire who's decided to spend his retirement turning his basement into one of the most advancement prototyping facilities in North America, and he spoke at great length about how exactly this happened and how very different the world would have looked had a handful of books not been preserved. Some of that knowledge might have been lost and we'd be stuck with silicon that had massive traces instead of the steadily-diminishing width we have now.)
 
Sir Stompy said:
I think this is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the macerator does. Macerators are storage seals with the stress amplified. What causes the shape of the cloud is the direction of those stresses. Currently those stresses are random, so we get a sphere.

What we would need to do is not shape the explosion as Kagome's directional explosives do, but change the storage stress from being random to being applied in a specific pattern. It wouldn't be related at all to directional explosives, just inspired by them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Macerators eject in a linear fashion, hence why they can be used to fire projectiles. A youthenizer is a macerator that ejects a cloud of fine sawdust and embers at low velocity.

That's my understanding anyway. I'm sure I'll be faflec'd within a minute or three.

FaintlySorcerous said:
This is a link to a playlist of videos wherein they re-create the Antikythera Mechanism using only technology which was known to be available at the time
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I believe @Velorien was talking about knowledge, not production capability. It's much easier to build the thing when you have a model to copy than to think of and implement the idea.

And thus begins the next chapter of the @Jello_Raptor wars... :p
 
eaglejarl said:
Macerators eject in a linear fashion, hence why they can be used to fire projectiles. A youthenizer is a macerator that ejects a cloud of fine sawdust and embers at low velocity.

That's my understanding anyway. I'm sure I'll be faflec'd within a minute or three.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My understanding was that the object was unsealed in the frame of the seal, if you punch with the seal while unsealing that gives the object a substantial velocity. Then since the amplified storage stresses are random they cancel each other out.

But I guess there's no reason you couldn't do the same thing with a regular storage seal. So that doesn't work.

eaglejarl said:
"Let's see...guess I probably shouldn't use this." He tossed one of the balls back over his shoulder with a sharp snap; a second later the air around it was full of a cloud of something that promptly erupted into a massive orange-and-red fireball.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't know if this is ejecting into a line or not, but it doesn't sound like it to me. Since that would make the cloud look pretty weird compared to Grand Fireball
 
eaglejarl said:
Macerators eject in a linear fashion, hence why they can be used to fire projectiles. A youthenizer is a macerator that ejects a cloud of fine sawdust and embers at low velocity.

And thus begins the next chapter of the @Jello_Raptor wars... :p
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
When you say linear fashion you mean at constant rate like a stream or like the contents is ejected hole moving on a line defined by the vector normal of the seal center?

I think its the latter because i can se the fireball if the hole log is projected grinded but still in "log shape" on the exact moment the seal is activated. It would fly of the seal and the escape velocity sumed with dust dispersion would make a fireball.
The stream shape would be more akin to a flamethrower.

Side note: (flamethrower seal, make sure the seal is made of something non flammable)
 
Last edited:
MrRobot said:
I knew theres a SCP reference somewhere. OPSEC jokes and the foundation are intrinsically one in the same.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Item #: Koi Pond

Object Class: N/A

Special Containment Procedures: Individuals assigned to the Koi Pond are to monitor the S5-C9 perimeter established near the Goketsu Estate of Leaf, and follow orders from on-site Wakahisa. Individuals assigned to the Koi Pond are to be made aware that there is nothing within the perimeter, as the Koi Pond does not exist.

Description: The Koi Pond does not exist.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top