Having taken a look at @Paper's revised plan, I would like to iterate the reasons why you should vote for mine instead.

To start, a 'cover base' that is actually used for high-OPSEC projects is both far more useful AND far more convincing as a cover than facilities which are never actually used. As it is now, the clan has to spend about five hours traveling round trip whenever we need to have a high-OPSEC meeting. This is fine occasionally but isn't something we can do all the time. Having an easily accessible high-OPSEC area means that we can have our regular clan meetings secured without massively disrupting our schedules. Building this underground base will have a massive security boost to everything that requires OPSEC, including other clan secrets such as Project Necromancy.

Actually using the base is not just useful, it's also far more convincing than the dummy-bases Paper proposed. The reality is that it is very hard to make facilities appear to be regularly used when they're actually not. Movies have dedicated professionals that require years of training just to make convincing sets of scenes (where there's only specific camera angles they have to worry about and they can do retakes!) and there are still errors all the time. Paper's fake sex dungeon, fake seal testing facility, and fake underground farm will not hold up to determined scrutiny, unlike my cover base which is actually used regularly and is thus extremely convincing. Would you rather have a few fake bases or a base that is both more convincing and extremely useful to the clan beyond its role as a cover?

In addition, the fake facilities Paper proposed make for terrible covers.
An uplift research facility is something in character for our plan, but there's absolutely nothing about it that requires high-OPSEC. If people discover that there is a super secret facility under our based with a hidden tunnel and a whole bunch of other security measures, they're not going to buy that it was for something that could just as easily have been done above ground with far less security. If anything, it'll make them extremely suspicious and probably encourage them to keep looking beyond the obvious cover for our real secret. The same logic holds for the sex dungeon. It's a little odd, but nothing that justifies that massive amount of security we're going through to hide it.

As for the seal testing facility, it is an absolutely horrible idea test seals in a confined space with no exit. @Inferno Vulpix explicitly stated this as a reason why he would not vote for a previous iteration of my plan. In my plan there is only a small amount of sealing matters being done underground and it's purely theoretical. Anyone who knows anything about sealing will see through this cover in an instant.

In contrast, my cover bases is genuinely useful for several purposes that actually require high-OPSEC. In other words, they're a far more convincing misdirection. Only Paper's third layer of defense, Project Necromancy, actually warrants hiding, and it's something that I've already had as part of my cover for days.

To make matters worse, Paper's plan is extremely lacking in details as for how the layers of redundancy are set up and how they protect each other. In the second and third layer of defense, Paper lists various projects we could use as distraction but never explains how to keep them separate or as shields for the others. Are they all underground in the same facility? Do they have staggered depths? How far apart is each layer? Is it a depth sufficient to block Byakugan from each successive layer? How much wasted time would it take to scale down four or five layers just to access the training facility?

In fact, a lot of details are missing. What do we use to tunnel this? How do we breath? What is the "margin" of depth he wanted beyond Hyuga's max vision? For that matter, what value is he using for that max vision?

In my plan, there are two layers that are kept sperate by a gigantic amount of earth and an additional hidden tunnel. (I even have a schematic showing how it works) @Paper, is this also the approach you are taking? Is each of the ploys listed in your second defense layer at separate depths from each other? It's genuinely not clear.

Finally, Paper's plan does not have Kagome make overboard security measures to protect the base. Paper states that "if the secrecy layer is compromised, ask Kagome for a full defensive loadout." That's not inherently a bad idea, but it would be far more secure to have Kagome implement proper security measures ahead of any problems instead of after them. By the time that our security is breached (assuming we even notice that it is breached), it will likely be far too late to properly respond. This sort of security takes time to set up and, perhaps far more importantly, people may have already discovered FOOM in the initial breach.

Unlike Paper, I have Kagome (and Kei) design and implement security directly so that they can stop any security or information breaches before it has a chance to expose FOOM.

In summary, my plan gives us an extremely useful base that is far more effective as a misdirection than Paper's covers, is actually secured using Kagome's full abilities, is incredibly useful for the clan even unrelated to being a cover, and is layed out in far greater detail. I strongly urge everyone to consider these claims and vote for [X] FOOM OPSEC: There Is No Kill Like OVERKILL.
 
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Having taken a look at @Paper's revised plan, I would like to iterate the reasons why you should vote for mine instead.

To start, a 'cover base' that is actually used for high-OPSEC projects is both far more useful AND far more convincing as a cover than facilities which are never actually used. As it is now, the clan has to spend about five hours traveling round trip whenever we need to have a high-OPSEC meeting. This is fine occasionally but isn't something we can do all the time. Having an easily accessible high-OPSEC area means that we can have our regular clan meetings secured without massively disrupting our schedules. Building this underground base will have a massive security boost to everything that requires OPSEC, including other clan secrets such as Project Necromancy.

Actually using the base is not just useful, it's also far more convincing than the dummy-bases Paper proposed. The reality is that it is very hard to make facilities appear to be regularly used when they're actually not. Movies have dedicated professionals that require years of training just to make convincing sets of scenes (where there's only specific camera angles they have to worry about and they can do retakes!) and there are still errors all the time. Paper's fake sex dungeon, fake seal testing facility, and fake underground farm will not hold up to determined scrutiny, unlike my cover base which is actually used regularly and is thus extremely convincing. Would you rather have a few fake bases or a base that is both more convincing and extremely useful to the clan beyond its role as a cover?

In addition, the fake facilities Paper proposed make for terrible covers.
An uplift research facility is something in character for our plan, but there's absolutely nothing about it that requires high-OPSEC. If people discover that there is a super secret facility under our based with a hidden tunnel and a whole bunch of other security measures, they're not going to buy that it was for something that could just as easily have been done above ground with far less security. If anything, it'll make them extremely suspicious and probably encourage them to keep looking beyond the obvious cover for our real secret. The same logic holds for the sex dungeon. It's a little odd, but nothing that justifies that massive amount of security we're going through to hide it.

As for the seal testing facility, it is an absolutely horrible idea test seals in a confined space with no exit. In my plan there is only a small amount of sealing matters being done underground and it's purely theoretical. Anyone who knows anything about sealing will see through this cover in an instant.

In contrast, my cover bases is genuinely useful for several purposes that actually require high-OPSEC. In other words, they're a far more convincing misdirection. Only Paper's third layer of defense, Project Necromancy, actually warrants hiding, and it's something that I've already had as part of my cover for days.

To make matters worse, Paper's plan is extremely lacking in details as for how the layers of redundancy are set up and how they protect each other. In the second and third layer of defense, Paper lists various projects we could use as distraction but never explains how to keep them separate or as shields for the others. Are they all underground in the same facility? Do they have staggered depths? How far apart is each layer? Is it a depth sufficient to block Byakugan from each successive layer? How much wasted time would it take to scale down four or five layers just to access the training facility?

In fact, a lot of details are missing. What do we use to tunnel this? How do we breath? What is the "margin" of depth he wanted beyond Hyuga's max vision? For that matter, what value is he using for that max vision?

In my plan, there are two layers that are kept sperate by a gigantic amount of earth and an additional hidden tunnel. (I even have a schematic showing how it works) @Paper, is this also the approach you are taking? Is each of the ploys listed in your second defense layer at separate depths from each other? It's genuinely not clear.

Finally, Paper's plan does not have Kagome make overboard security measures to protect the base. Paper states that "if the secrecy layer is compromised, ask Kagome for a full defensive loadout." That's not inherently a bad idea, but it would be far more secure to have Kagome implement proper security measures ahead of any problems instead of after them. By the time that our security is breached (assuming we even notice that it is breached), it will likely be far too late to properly respond. This sort of security takes time to set up and, perhaps far more importantly, people may have already discovered FOOM in the initial breach.

Unlike Paper, I have Kagome (and Kei) design and implement security directly so that they can stop any security or information breaches before it has a chance to expose FOOM.

In summary, my plan gives us an extremely useful base that is far more effective as a misdirection than Paper's covers, is actually secured using Kagome's full abilities, is incredibly useful for the clan even unrelated to being a cover, and is layed out in far greater detail. I strongly urge everyone to consider these claims and vote for [X] FOOM OPSEC: There Is No Kill Like OVERKILL.
I'm sorry to say this when you've clearly taken time to plan and write this out, but voting closed four hours ago. The post to that effect is right above yours.
 
Ok, i was rumaginf the idea of flooding iwa on my head and why hazo shouldnt do it (turn out that genociding civilians would be a no no) but it hit me how about a halucinogen like SCP 420-J?
[LOL] Plan everyone is stone on rock.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Paperclipped on Aug 11, 2021 at 11:45 AM, finished with 397 posts and 24 votes.

@Velorien might want to have a tally starting from where EJ made the FOOM OPSEC announcement.
 
I'm sorry to say this when you've clearly taken time to plan and write this out, but voting closed four hours ago. The post to that effect is right above yours.
sighs
Yeah, people in the Discord let me know. I'm still new to this quest and thought voting closed on 1PM ET both days.

Side note: @Oneiros, you said that you would have changed your vote had you seen my message on time. Make sure you do not go back and change it now as a symbolic gesture because @Velorien started the count from the wrong place and it might acidentally get counted past time and change the outcome of the vote. Not sure if you were planning on doing that or not but didn't want it to accidentally slip beneath the radar just in case you were.
edit: nvmd. vote is reclosed. do whatever you want
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Paperclipped on Aug 11, 2021 at 11:45 AM, finished with 397 posts and 24 votes.

@Velorien might want to have a tally starting from where EJ made the FOOM OPSEC announcement.
Fixed, thanks.
 
I suppose it's purely a moot point now, but would anyone be willing to read the analysis I posted and let me know if what they think about my concerns and wether or not they feel I was convincing? I spent a while writing it and am incredibly curious what people think of it.
 
To start, a 'cover base' that is actually used for high-OPSEC projects is both far more useful AND far more convincing as a cover than facilities which are never actually used. As it is now, the clan has to spend about five hours traveling round trip whenever we need to have a high-OPSEC meeting. This is fine occasionally but isn't something we can do all the time. Having an easily accessible high-OPSEC area means that we can have our regular clan meetings secured without massively disrupting our schedules. Building this underground base will have a massive security boost to everything that requires OPSEC, including other clan secrets such as Project Necromancy.

Actually using the base is not just useful, it's also far more convincing than the dummy-bases Paper proposed. The reality is that it is very hard to make facilities appear to be regularly used when they're actually not. Movies have dedicated professionals that require years of training just to make convincing sets of scenes (where there's only specific camera angles they have to worry about and they can do retakes!) and there are still errors all the time. Paper's fake sex dungeon, fake seal testing facility, and fake underground farm will not hold up to determined scrutiny, unlike my cover base which is actually used regularly and is thus extremely convincing. Would you rather have a few fake bases or a base that is both more convincing and extremely useful to the clan beyond its role as a cover?
This is true, but it trades off against secrecy. I included "make other high OPSEC areas to draw attention", at your suggestion, and those get the convenience factor.

In addition, the fake facilities Paper proposed make for terrible covers. An uplift research facility is something in character for our plan, but there's absolutely nothing about it that requires high-OPSEC. If people discover that there is a super secret facility under our based with a hidden tunnel and a whole bunch of other security measures, they're not going to buy that it was for something that could just as easily have been done above ground with far less security. If anything, it'll make them extremely suspicious and probably encourage them to keep looking beyond the obvious cover for our real secret. The same logic holds for the sex dungeon. It's a little odd, but nothing that justifies that massive amount of security we're going through to hide it.

As for the seal testing facility, it is an absolutely horrible idea test seals in a confined space with no exit. In my plan there is only a small amount of sealing matters being done underground and it's purely theoretical. Anyone who knows anything about sealing will see through this cover in an instant.
Yeah, they're all slightly flawed, yet in-character for Hazou. If they actually make bad covers (or we should stick with one and commit to it), then I expect the NPCs we're running this by to tell us.

In contrast, my cover bases is genuinely useful for several purposes that actually require high-OPSEC. In other words, they're a far more convincing misdirection. Only Paper's third layer of defense, Project Necromancy, actually warrants hiding, and it's something that I've already had as part of my cover for days.
Good note: we should also, once/if secrecy is compromised, commit harder to the other ploys.

To make matters worse, Paper's plan is extremely lacking in details as for how the layers of redundancy are set up and how they protect each other. In the second and third layer of defense, Paper lists various projects we could use as distraction but never explains how to keep them separate or as shields for the others. Are they all underground in the same facility? Do they have staggered depths? How far apart is each layer? Is it a depth sufficient to block Byakugan from each successive layer? How much wasted time would it take to scale down four or five layers just to access the training facility?
My answer to this is PC/NPC agency. This could be separate physical layers or concentric shells. The core idea is communicated, the specifics of the implementation can be sorted out IC. I don't think 5 successively deeper layers is the right answer though -- if someone with the Byakugan is on Layer 3, they'll almost certainly be able to see the tunnel down to Layer 4 even if Layer 4 is too far.

In fact, a lot of details are missing. What do we use to tunnel this? How do we breath? What is the "margin" of depth he wanted beyond Hyuga's max vision? For that matter, what value is he using for that max vision?

In my plan, there are two layers that are kept sperate by a gigantic amount of earth and an additional hidden tunnel. (I even have a schematic showing how it works) @Paper, is this also the approach you are taking? Is each of the ploys listed in your second defense layer at separate depths from each other? It's genuinely not clear.
Also NPC agency. I don't think Hazou will let himself asphyxiate, esp. when purifiers already adorn every room in the estate. What would we use to tunnel a top-secret facility other than Tunnel Excavation? We wouldn't get a civvie team in with shovels, for sure. These specific details are unnecessary imo.

I think two layers is a reasonable approach, and it's quite possibly what group consensus will be: 1 for decoys, 1 for FOOM. I don't want to commit to a specific idea though, since it could easily be overridden if Kei says "Nope, that will get us noticed by deep-underground ANBU patrols, let's do them side-by-side".

Finally, Paper's plan does not have Kagome make overboard security measures to protect the base. Paper states that "if the secrecy layer is compromised, ask Kagome for a full defensive loadout." That's not inherently a bad idea, but it would be far more secure to have Kagome implement proper security measures ahead of any problems instead of after them. By the time that our security is breached (assuming we even notice that it is breached), it will likely be far too late to properly respond. This sort of security takes time to set up and, perhaps far more importantly, people may have already discovered FOOM in the initial breach.
Thankfully, FOOM is really easy to cover up in the event of a physical breach -- SCs can be popped instantly. Perhaps the easiest solution is to just line the walls with LBFs and explosive tags -- I think trying to meditate in a killbox might give us extra Resolve XP?

Proper security measures trade off against secrecy. I would prefer trying to win each layer in order, since we can always safely retreat to a deeper layer.

Unlike Paper, I have Kagome (and Kei) design and implement security directly so that they can stop any security or information breaches before it has a chance to expose FOOM.
Getting Kagome too deeply involved in this is an OPSEC hazard (sorry Kagome, you're just as adorable as ever!), and Akane, Kei, Noburi, Mari are all involved in designing the security, along with everything else.
 
As for the seal testing facility, it is an absolutely horrible idea test seals in a confined space with no exit. @Inferno Vulpix explicitly stated this as a reason why he would not vote for a previous iteration of my plan. In my plan there is only a small amount of sealing matters being done underground and it's purely theoretical. Anyone who knows anything about sealing will see through this cover in an instant.
Note that there is a very big difference between seal research and seal testing. Seal research is when we infuse a new macerator variant and hope it doesn't evaporate this local sector of reality. Seal testing is when we take that macerator and see how gnarly it wrecks things when you put different things in it. Hosting the former underground is insane, hosting the latter underground should be fine.
 
Thank you @Paperclipped. I've replied to the points that I disagreed with or wanted clarification on. All entirely irrevant since voting already closed but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks for humoring me.
This is true, but it trades off against secrecy.
How exactly does it trade off against secrecy?
I included "make other high OPSEC areas to draw attention", at your suggestion, and those get the convenience factor.
Begs the question why you wouldn't just make those high-OPSEC areas part of the cover for our secret base, since they would work really well for it.
Yeah, they're all slightly flawed, yet in-character for Hazou. If they actually make bad covers (or we should stick with one and commit to it), then I expect the NPCs we're running this by to tell us.
The thread having a history of making Hazō make ill-thought-out decisions does not mean we should continue to do so because they are in charecter. Simply choosing better covers doesn't conform any more to his personality/charecter traits than choosing these bad ones.
Also, I belive they are more than just "slightly" flawed and might even be conunterproductive.
I think two layers is a reasonable approach, and it's quite possibly what group consensus will be: 1 for decoys, 1 for FOOM. I don't want to commit to a specific idea though, since it could easily be overridden if Kei says "Nope, that will get us noticed by deep-underground ANBU patrols, let's do them side-by-side".
Two layers being exactly what I had in my plan but with less effecitve misdirection in the decoy layer?
Thankfully, FOOM is really easy to cover up in the event of a physical breach -- SCs can be popped instantly. Perhaps the easiest solution is to just line the walls with LBFs and explosive tags -- I think trying to meditate in a killbox might give us extra Resolve XP?

Proper security measures trade off against secrecy. I would prefer trying to win each layer in order, since we can always safely retreat to a deeper layer.
Don't forget that Kagome's secuirty also extends to informational security! Also, don't you have Noburi come down to fill their chakra down there? He wouldn't be able to pop to saftey. Neither would anyone else if they are down there for whatever reason.
Getting Kagome too deeply involved in this is an OPSEC hazard (sorry Kagome, you're just as adorable as ever!), and Akane, Kei, Noburi, Mari are all involved in designing the security, along with everything else.
I explicitly had him design the security and OPSEC for the top layer which does not involve FOOM. Then, Hazō can just copy what he did for the second layer without Kagome having to be read in on FOOM.

Note that there is a very big difference between seal research and seal testing. Seal research is when we infuse a new macerator variant and hope it doesn't evaporate this local sector of reality. Seal testing is when we take that macerator and see how gnarly it wrecks things when you put different things in it. Hosting the former underground is insane, hosting the latter underground should be fine.
Oh! It's a facility for testing the specs of already safe seals. That was not clear to me at all. I suppose it still leads to the same problem of "why is this totally normal thing protected by such extensive and expensive security" if anyone discovers it.
 
Uplift Idea:

There's an open source jutsu that turns stone into a magnet/loadstone, right? We could use it to create clothes that "button themselves" for ninja who are palsied and can't button normal buttons. There's a similar thing for people with Parkinson's, and it would give disabled ninja (such as those who only have one workable hand) more bodily autonomy.
 
Uplift Idea:

There's an open source jutsu that turns stone into a magnet/loadstone, right? We could use it to create clothes that "button themselves" for ninja who are palsied and can't button normal buttons. There's a similar thing for people with Parkinson's, and it would give disabled ninja (such as those who only have one workable hand) more bodily autonomy.
Iron into lodestone, to be precise.
 
Uplift Idea:

There's an open source jutsu that turns stone into a magnet/loadstone, right? We could use it to create clothes that "button themselves" for ninja who are palsied and can't button normal buttons. There's a similar thing for people with Parkinson's, and it would give disabled ninja (such as those who only have one workable hand) more bodily autonomy.

I think we have a seal or justu that acts as a 12 or 9 volt battery? Useful for introducing electricity via research, I guess.
 
The thread having a history of making Hazō make ill-thought-out decisions does not mean we should continue to do so because they are in charecter. Simply choosing better covers doesn't conform any more to his personality/charecter traits than choosing these bad ones.
Also, I belive they are more than just "slightly" flawed and might even be conunterproductive.
I think Paper here means that the flaws are believable IC, looking like the plausible work of someone like Hazou. In the right balance, this is a small hit to the security of the initial deceptions to lend credence to the wham secret found later. At least, that's my impression of what Paperclipped's saying.
 
I think Paper here means that the flaws are believable IC, looking like the plausible work of someone like Hazou.
I don't diagree with that, I just don't think it's a point in favor of choosing flawed IC covers instead of more effective IC covers.
In the right balance, this is a small hit to the security of the initial deceptions to lend credence to the wham secret found later.
See my paragraph on how these 'covers' would actually make people more suspicous.
 
Uplift Idea:

There's an open source jutsu that turns stone into a magnet/loadstone, right? We could use it to create clothes that "button themselves" for ninja who are palsied and can't button normal buttons. There's a similar thing for people with Parkinson's, and it would give disabled ninja (such as those who only have one workable hand) more bodily autonomy.
Problem is, lodestones kinda suck. They don't really hold a candle to modern neodymium magnets (which we can't make, unless we think of a way to develop Multiple Rare Earth Wall No Jutsu).

It might be worth investigating, but I suspect the conclusion is going to be "The buttons pop apart the instant you move".

For reference, here's a selection of magnets throughout the ages:

(Source)

Middle is carved lodestone in a brass frame, rightmost is a modern ferrite magnet, bottom is a modern neodymium magnet. They are all the same strength*.

* (as measured in total energy of the magnetic field, not the force applied by the magnet. Magnets are complicated, but I think the much, much smaller volume of the neodynium magnet actually means it would produce a lot more force [against objects whose size is insignificant compared to the magnet; force per area] in close proximity.)
 
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That's thinking too small, I feel. Object-level material concessions, no matter how extravagant, don't compare to what we're being asked to give up.

I'd ask for Uplift. I'd ask him to pledge to the Will of Fire or whatever's maximally sacred and binding that he'll help us achieve it. Help us create a world where everyone, even far off people, even our enemies, even people who don't deserve it, have human dignity and can live in peace. A world where the strong don't dominate the weak, where humanity flourishes to untold heights, and where cycles of hatred are a thing of the past. I'd ask that he do whatever it takes to make that bright shining future a reality, even if it means being the first to let an injustice go unavenged, even if it means extending kindness to people he hates.

If he can promise this, I'd be able to give him FOOM with a clear conscience. If he can promise this, then there's no reason to keep secrets, no reason to hold anything back.
Mm, yes, this, but I think we can stand to be a bit more specific. I'd ask for FOOM to only be used in ways that would advance Uplift first and foremost (maybe even for us to have the veto on allowing the FOOMing of any ninja), and to install structures into place ensuring this agreement would persist even if Asuma and/or the Gouketsu were to be wiped out. Leaf is a good conduit for Uplift, so it'll still benefit at the expense of its geopolitical rivals, and this ensures there wouldn't be any oopsies where Asuma is rendered irrelevant by a new crop of godlings whom it was for Leaf's benefit to create, or where he dies and the new Hokage, well, didn't promise anything.

It's implicit in what you're suggesting, as it'd be sensible for an Uplift-Maximizer!Asuma to do, but it might not be something actual Asuma modelling Uplift-Maximizer!Asuma would think of.
 
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Since Mari Is FOOMing we need to start trying to figure out our end game fairly soon since she will hit S-rank and be supported by multiple summoners and a jounin level seal master.

Once we have that level of force at our disposal we need to figure out what we want to acquire/accomplish with it
 
@Velorien Is there anything in the plan that is hard to parse or needs clarification?
How do you envision the following working?

Returning from 7P allows instant undetectable ambushes.
(Internally: TLitF lockdown + Shadow Clone = crowd destroyer)
Alternatively, could wait on 7P to reverse summon to frontline squads.
 
How do you envision the following working?
"Returning from 7P allows instant undetectable ambushes."
Summoners who meet up in the human path and 7th path can synchronously reverse summon into the fray, and solo Summoners can of course do it whenever they want. The transit is instant, so if they moved to a high priority location before the enemy arrived and reverse summon, they are no longer detectable by the enemy. They could appear from nowhere at either a scheduled time coordinated with an attacking party or when another Summoner notifies them to return. This is a pretty niche tactic but I thought it was worth mentioning.

"(Internally: TLitF lockdown + Shadow Clone = crowd destroyer)"
This is referring to the scene of Mari's guilt over not going to the Battle of the Gods, where she mentioned she could have gone and used TLitF to freeze groups of enemies at once. With Shadow Clone, this effect is multiplied by the number of clones active, so if TLitF can freeze 6-12 people, Mari with 3 Shadow Clones active could freeze 24-48 people. She would serve as a Support role with the attackers going through and killing all the genjutsu'd people.
EDIT: To be clear, we were told Mari does not need to actually erase people's memories when she uses TLitF, she can put them under it without 'paying the price' by not erasing memories. That's the mechanic I was specifically talking about.

"Alternatively, could wait on 7P to reverse summon to frontline squads."
Noburi stays within a few miles of the front lines and reverse summons so no scouts notice him and ambush him. Either he could return on a schedule or another Summoner can notify him to return and refill the ninja after the fight. As Paper pointed out though, it could be dangerous if the enemy advances more than expected and he finds himself on the other side of enemy lines (though ninja armies are small enough that I guess they don't really have 'lines' so to speak...)
 
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