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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Unaligned Player said:
And where would this miraculous growth as a person come from?
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Gradually, over time, as she begins to feel safe and comfortable enough to let go of her self-loathing, process her fear and rage, and be more self-aware and able to confront the fact that she has a bunch of flaws.
Unaligned Player said:
No that's not a heavily expected result, I'm thinking more taking shots at Hazou for things like not murdering Orochimaru and saying that he doesn't actually believe in uplift since he's not running himself ragged every second of the day and actually has y'know. Emotions and desires outside of Uplift. All in an effort to move the conversation away from herself.
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I'm relatively unconcerned about that, a) because we can write being calm and not responding to attacks like that into a plan and b) because they're trivially spurious and I think Hazo is mature enough not to rise to that sort of thing. We can bring Akane along if necessary.
Unaligned Player said:
I feel like I just read a politician's manifesto because I got nothing from this.
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Let me break it down.

Emotional support: listen to Keiko. Make sure she feels heard. People underestimate how valuable this is. You can accomplish this by showing an interest in what she's saying (asking questions, making sure you understand) and actively listening ('so, you're saying x?', 'I'm hearing you say y', etc.).

Don't enable behaviours we can't condone: if she says 'I am worthless' we disagree with her and state that disagreement clearly. We let her know it hurts us to hear her say things like that because they're very untrue and unkind things being said about someone we love. I'm hoping this is illustrative of the general idea.

Balancing those things: if every time she gets down on herself or voices a negative thought or [action] we shut it down, we'll get nowhere.

Make sure we draw healthy boundaries: if she goes on diatribes about Mari's awfulness, we let her know that it isn't something we can be around for. We think it's important she has space to voice her feelings, and we respect her feelings, but it isn't something we can be around for. If she does it again, leave. Repeat as necessary with whichever topics we've drawn boundaries on.

Try not to ask drastically more of her than we feel she is capable: if we know that her response to a question is going to be to melt down emotionally, avoid that question. If we know that she can't handle a certain topic, stay around the edges, or if it's necessary to discuss, make sure there's a framework in place for that discussion to maximize her chances of success.

When you treat people in a kind and supportive way, it tends to go pretty well. I think we should try that. Support, to clarify, does not mean being a doormat, but doing what you can to help that person be the best version of themselves - believing in them, encouraging them, that sort of thing.

I don't think that trying to deliberately hurt people emotionally results in emotional growth.
 
Velorien said:
Not objecting to the effort itself, but do note that different wording results in a different emotional tone for the plan, which can consciously or unconsciously influence the writing process.
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Thanks for the insight. I do try to keep it in mind, but (IMO of course) ultimately it's up to the author of the plan to ensure they maintain the same sentiment
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Emotional support: listen to Keiko. Make sure she feels heard. People underestimate how valuable this is. You can accomplish this by showing an interest in what she's saying (asking questions, making sure you understand) and actively listening ('so, you're saying x?', 'I'm hearing you say y', etc.).
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Understood.
FaintlySorcerous said:
Don't enable behaviours we can't condone: if she says 'I am worthless' we disagree with her and state that disagreement clearly. We let her know it hurts us to hear her say things like that because they're very untrue and unkind things being said about someone we love. I'm hoping this is illustrative of the general idea.
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Pointless in this scenario but understood.
FaintlySorcerous said:
Balancing those things: if every time she gets down on herself or voices a negative thought or [action] we shut it down, we'll get nowhere.
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Keiko: Rapid fire, wide spread!
FaintlySorcerous said:
Make sure we draw healthy boundaries: if she goes on diatribes about Mari's awfulness, we let her know that it isn't something we can be around for. We think it's important she has space to voice her feelings, and we respect her feelings, but it isn't something we can be around for. If she does it again, leave. Repeat as necessary with whichever topics we've drawn boundaries on.
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Keiko:Thank you for informing how I can set this conversation on fire and keep it away.
FaintlySorcerous said:
Try not to ask drastically more of her than we feel she is capable: if we know that her response to a question is going to be to melt down emotionally, avoid that question. If we know that she can't handle a certain topic, stay around the edges, or if it's necessary to discuss, make sure there's a framework in place for that discussion to maximize her chances of success.
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So never ask for her to even try grow as a person at all and coddle her in her horrible horrible habits?
FaintlySorcerous said:
When you treat people in a kind and supportive way, it tends to go pretty well. I think we should try that. Support, to clarify, does not mean being a doormat, but doing what you can to help that person be the best version of themselves - believing in them, encouraging them, that sort of thing.
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That's a nice thought that I don't necessarily agree with.
FaintlySorcerous said:
I don't think that trying to deliberately hurt people emotionally results in emotional growth.
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And I don't think trying to go easy with a massive coward will be at all productive.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
I would maybe change the tone of this to 'we think that this is a potential reason that Mari may not have apologized - that she's self-aware enough of this to hold off on apologizing until she can be sure it's meaningful because she shares your worries that she might actually be a broken social-spec is to her credit in at least some regards'. That's more what I meant, at any rate.

I would also like us to make clear our support for Keiko's desire for some sort of acknowledgement/taking-of-responsibility. I think that hearing that would be important to her, because she's modeled us as trying to dissuade her.

However:

[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline
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Tried adding both suggestions, could you take a look? I'm concerned that I'm overcommitting to support Keiko even in situations where her desired form of restitution are at odds with our sense of morality.
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline
Word Count: 282

Setting: Hazou meets with Keiko and gets updated.
  • About Mari:
    • Tone:
      • Maintain Standard Gouketsu Family SOP as possible.
      • Speak calmly and kindly, use CCnJ as appropriate.
      • Listen to Keiko.
      • We are NOT trying to convince Keiko of anything, just explaining Hazou's thoughts and reasonings.
    • Ask Keiko why she thinks Mari's never apologized?
      • Mari's a Jonin social-spec, and knows a lot about how to control Keiko.
      • She has to know how important an apology, or something similar, is to Keiko.
      • So why hasn't she?
    • Hazou believes Mari's scared of manipulating us.
      • Mari shares your worries about being a broken social-spec, and may have avoided apologizing until she's sure it's genuine.
      • We won't go into too much detail to avoid violating Mari's confidence, but Hazou believes these issues are real but solvable - Mari's working on them.
    • Hazou repeats that he doesn't want to convince Keiko to forgive Mari.
      • Hazou simply wants to state his own thoughts on why.
      • But we would like to ask what Keiko wants from Mari.
        • Just an apology?
        • Restitution (and what would that look like)?
        • No need to answer, just think on it.
        • We will support you.
  • [IFF she's up for it] Talk about the plan.
    • Hazou still thinks overthrowing Shusuke is possible with his plan, but agrees with Mari that it may be too fast.
      • Hazou wanted to mimic Ami's actions in Leaf/Mist, but failed to incorporate Isan's....Yagura-ness.
    • Could Keiko clear chakra monsters with Isan's patrols, using that to gain allies?
    • Ask for Yuno to suggest potential allies among those who "won't fit in".
    • Should we ask the Tower for resources/a loan?
  • Send Mari's birthday present: bubble bath seals & a transportable bathtub to use in Isan.
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faflec said:
Tried adding both suggestions, could you take a look? I'm concerned that I'm overcommitting to support Keiko even in situations where her desired form of restitution are at odds with our sense of morality.
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  • Hazou believes Mari's scared of manipulating us.
    • Mari shares your worries about being a broken social-spec. This might be part of the reason she's avoided apologizing; she wants to be sure it's genuine.
    • We won't go into too much detail to avoid violating Mari's confidence, but Hazou believes that Mari acknowledges these issues, and that she's working on them.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
  • Hazou believes Mari's scared of manipulating us.
    • Mari shares your worries about being a broken social-spec. This might be part of the reason she's avoided apologizing; she wants to be sure it's genuine.
    • We won't go into too much detail to avoid violating Mari's confidence, but Hazou believes that Mari acknowledges these issues, and that she's working on them.
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Done.
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline
Word Count: 288

Setting: Hazou meets with Keiko and gets updated.
  • About Mari:
    • Tone:
      • Maintain Standard Gouketsu Family SOP as possible.
      • Speak calmly and kindly, use CCnJ as appropriate.
      • Listen to Keiko.
      • We are NOT trying to convince Keiko of anything, just explaining Hazou's thoughts and reasonings.
    • Ask Keiko why she thinks Mari's never apologized?
      • Mari's a Jonin social-spec, and knows a lot about how to control Keiko.
      • She has to know how important an apology, or something similar, is to Keiko.
      • So why hasn't she?
    • Hazou believes Mari's scared of manipulating us.
      • Mari shares your worries about being a broken social-spec. This might be part of the reason she's avoided apologizing; she wants to be sure it's genuine.
      • We won't go into too much detail to avoid violating Mari's confidence, but Hazou believes that Mari acknowledges these issues, and that she's working on them.
    • Hazou repeats that he doesn't want to convince Keiko to forgive Mari.
      • Hazou simply wants to state his own thoughts on why.
      • But we would like to ask what Keiko wants from Mari.
        • An apology? Restitution (what would that look like)?
        • No need to answer, just think on it.
        • We will support you.
  • [IFF she's up for it] Talk about the plan.
    • Hazou still thinks overthrowing Shusuke is possible with his plan, but agrees with Mari that it may be too fast.
      • Hazou wanted to mimic Ami's actions in Leaf/Mist, but failed to incorporate Isan's....Yagura-ness.
    • Could Keiko clear chakra monsters with Isan's patrols, using that to gain allies?
    • Ask for Yuno to suggest potential allies among those who "won't fit in".
    • Should we ask the Tower for resources/a loan?
  • Send Mari's birthday present: bubble bath seals & a transportable bathtub to use in Isan.
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@Oneiros I noticed you around recently, could you take a look at my plan, especially the part where we do new stuff with the Isan takeover? I want to be sure it's in line with your thoughts on what we should do next to overthrow Shusuke, since the previous Isan-related plan was your brainchild.
 
faflec said:
@Oneiros I noticed you around recently, could you take a look at my plan, especially the part where we do new stuff with the Isan takeover? I want to be sure it's in line with your thoughts on what we should do next to overthrow Shusuke, since the previous Isan-related plan was your brainchild.
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Is mostly good . I would also add something about how Keiko needs to make herself into a figure that the common people of Isan can but their faith. She needs to personally represent an alternative to the high priest
 
Oneiros said:
Is mostly good . I would also add something about how Keiko needs to make herself into a figure that the common people of Isan can but their faith. She needs to personally represent an alternative to the high priest
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How does this look?
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline
Word Count: 297

Setting: Hazou meets with Keiko and gets updated.
  • About Mari:
    • Tone:
      • Maintain Standard Gouketsu Family SOP as possible.
      • Speak calmly and kindly, use CCnJ as appropriate.
      • Listen to Keiko.
      • We are NOT trying to convince Keiko of anything, just explaining Hazou's thoughts and reasonings.
    • Ask Keiko why she thinks Mari's never apologized?
      • Mari's a Jonin social-spec, and knows a lot about how to control Keiko.
      • She has to know how important an apology, or something similar, is to Keiko.
      • So why hasn't she?
    • Hazou believes Mari's scared of manipulating us.
      • Mari shares your worries about being a broken social-spec. This might be part of the reason she's avoided apologizing; she wants to be sure it's genuine.
      • We won't go into too much detail to avoid violating Mari's confidence, but Hazou believes that Mari acknowledges these issues, and that she's working on them.
    • Hazou repeats that he doesn't want to convince Keiko to forgive Mari.
      • Hazou simply wants to state his own thoughts on why.
      • But we would like to ask what Keiko wants from Mari.
        • An apology? Restitution (what would that look like)?
        • No need to answer, just think on it.
        • We will support you.
  • [IFF she's up for it] Talk about the plan.
    • Hazou still thinks overthrowing Shusuke is possible with his plan, but agrees with Mari that it was rushed.
      • We wanted to replicate Ami's actions in Leaf/Mist, but failed to incorporate Isan's....Yagura-ness.
      • We can still make Keiko a religious icon/alternative to Shusuke.
    • Could Keiko clear chakra monsters with Isan's patrols, using that to gain allies?
    • Ask for Yuno to suggest potential allies among those who "won't fit in".
    • Should we ask the Tower for resources/a loan?
  • Send Mari's birthday present: bubble bath seals & a transportable bathtub to use in Isan.
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Alright, edits made to get the word count down, and also to impress onto Keiko that we agree/want to help her with the whole restitution business, as was discussed on Discord.
faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline
Word Count: 299

Setting: Hazou meets with Keiko and gets updated.
  • About Mari:
    • Tone:
      • Maintain Standard Gouketsu Family SOP as possible.
      • Speak calmly and kindly, use CCnJ as appropriate.
      • Listen to Keiko.
      • We are NOT trying to convince Keiko of anything, just explaining Hazou's thought processes.
    • Ask Keiko why she thinks Mari's never apologized?
      • Mari's a Jonin social-spec, and knows a lot about Keiko.
      • She must know how important an apology (or similar) is.
      • So why hasn't she?
    • Hazou believes Mari's scared of manipulating us.
      • Mari shares your worries about being a broken social-spec. This might be part of the reason she's avoided apologizing; she wants to be sure it's genuine.
      • We won't go into too much detail to avoid violating Mari's confidence, but Hazou believes that Mari acknowledges these issues, and that she's working on them.
    • Hazou repeats he doesn't want to convince Keiko to forgive Mari.
      • Hazou is simply explaining his thought processes.
      • But we'd like to ask what Keiko wants from Mari.
        • An apology? Restitution (what would that look like)?
        • No need to answer, just think on it.
        • Yes, you have been wronged, and seeking some form of restitution is something we want to help you do.
  • [IFF Keiko's up for it] Talk about the plan.
    • Hazou still thinks overthrowing Shusuke is possible with his plan, but agrees with Mari that it was rushed.
      • We wanted to replicate Ami's actions in Leaf/Mist, but failed to incorporate Isan's....Yagura-ness.
      • We should still make Keiko a religious icon/High Priest alternative.
    • Could Keiko clear chakra monsters with Isan's patrols, using that to gain allies?
    • Ask for Yuno to suggest potential allies among those who "won't fit in".
    • Should we ask the Tower for resources/a loan?
  • Send Mari's birthday present: bubble bath seals & a transportable bathtub to use in Isan.
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Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful, or, "Please refrain from contemplating genocide on the ninja world by extraterrestrial beings. That is fairly inappropriate."
So there is a moral theory that goes.
Making a child born that ends up more happiness then sadness is not a morally good action, but morally neutral.
While making a child born that ends up more sadness then happiness is a morally bad action.
And there are many more beings in the future then the present
The conclusion of this ideology would be to genocide or sterilize all present sentient beings, to prevent the suffering of future beings.
In real life this isn't relevant because to achieve 100% success rate is hard. And if you miss a few % you have caused net suffering to current beings, without preventing future beings from being born.

But in ninja world the existence of eldritch beings makes this seem a possibility (also looking at dragon seal which could eat all the paths). Would true Uplift be to genocide/sterilize all sentients?

If we can advance society such that the chances that a newborn will end up sad is minuscule that can avoid the genocide. Sure it's still a bad thing since there's a chance they end up sad. but if you make the chance small enough it's only equivalently as bad as say a white lie. A trouble is if u include not only the chance they end up sad, but also there children and their descendents end up sad. even a very small chance will blow up. however, eldritch beings again might be able to make the chances actually miniscule enough.
also in ninja world there isn't population growth, but a population diminishing. so if the pop will go extinct eventually anyway, may have no need to hasten the process
 
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roobee said:
So there is a moral theory that goes.
Making a child born that ends up more happiness then sadness is not a morally good action, but morally neutral.
While making a child born that ends up more sadness then happiness is a morally bad action.
And there are many more beings in the future then the present
The conclusion of this ideology would be to genocide or sterilize all present sentient beings, to prevent the suffering of future beings.
In real life this isn't relevant because to achieve 100% success rate is hard. And if you miss a few % you have caused net suffering to current beings, without preventing future beings from being born.

But in ninja world the existence of eldritch beings makes this seem a possibility (also looking at dragon seal which could eat all the paths). Would true Uplift be to genocide/sterilize all sentients?

If we can advance society such that the chances that a newborn will end up sad is minuscule that can avoid the genocide. Sure it's still a bad thing since there's a chance they end up sad. but if you make the chance small enough it's only equivalently as bad as say a white lie. A trouble is if u include not only the chance they end up sad, but also there children and their descendents end up sad. even a very small chance will blow up. however, eldritch beings again might be able to make the chances actually miniscule enough.
also in ninja world there isn't population growth, but a population diminishing. so if the pop will go extinct eventually anyway, may have no need to hasten the process
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My response would be: there's lots of other moral theories out there that don't think this though, and I like my morality with fewer assertions and less genocide, S.V.P.
 
Nekkar started laughing. The laughter went on, starting low and getting steadily higher.

"You think the Eaters are the threat?" Nekkar finally asked. "Oh, little dog..." The Cat Boss shook their head. "This is far too amusing. Very well, I shall leave you to your travels." Nekkar stood up and stretched.
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Have we figured out what Nekkar meant here? I'm getting increasingly worried about the fact that all of our information on this "apocalyptic, existential threat" comes from one source. We might be being manipulated. Worse, there might be something even more terrifying coming up that makes the Eaters look nonthreatening in comparison.
 
[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline

While I think FS's clear assertion that Mari has changed goes nicely with Keiko's recent revelation that her personal situation has changed, I think it'll go better once Keiko/Snowflake has done stuff to internalize her new agency.
 
_The_Bomb said:
Have we figured out what Nekkar meant here? I'm getting increasingly worried about the fact that all of our information on this "apocalyptic, existential threat" comes from one source. We might be being manipulated. Worse, there might be something even more terrifying coming up that makes the Eaters look nonthreatening in comparison.
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We haven't heard anything that illuminates what Nekkar meant by that, no. Personally, if Nekkar speaks true, it's the latter theory rather than the former. We've seen a Dragon, seen the Great Seal, with our own two eyes, and that's enough evidence to confirm that something really gnarly and really bad is going on, which kills most theories of elaborate deceptions. So if Nekkar knows something we don't, it's something that makes 'stop the Dragons from consuming all the Clans and laying waste to all of reality' a distraction from the even worse and more pressing threat at our doorstep.

Personally though I just think Nekkar was trolling us. We simply have no evidence other than Nekkar's word that the Cats are clued into something that escapes even Kumokogo's forbidden lore, and lying about something like that doesn't seem out of character for Nekkar.

That doesn't mean it's not worth following up on, even if we think there's a 90% chance Nekkar will just laugh at our gullibility, but since we have limited resources and a clear apocalypse in front of us we should probably focus our efforts on the Dragons first.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on May 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM, finished with 131 posts and 15 votes.
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Voting is closed.

 
Velorien said:
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on May 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM, finished with 131 posts and 15 votes.
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Voting is closed.

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*screaming in faflec*
 
You know, something that occurred to me recently is that while a few players dislike having Hazō "play therapist", this aspect of the quest has been there since the very beginning, when Hazō deftly navigated the challenge of Noburi resenting his leadership and thereby established the OG Uplift dynamic that has continued ever since.
 
Velorien said:
You know, something that occurred to me recently is that while a few players dislike having Hazō "play therapist", this aspect of the quest has been there since the very beginning, when Hazō deftly navigated the challenge of Noburi resenting his leadership and thereby established the OG Uplift dynamic that has continued ever since.
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Honestly, the ability to be able to help loved ones is my escapist wish fulfillment, so I don't quite grok their perspective...

(But yeah, Hazou's been doing this since the very first few chapters of the quest, not quite sure why that would/should change now)
 
Velorien said:
You know, something that occurred to me recently is that while a few players dislike having Hazō "play therapist", this aspect of the quest has been there since the very beginning, when Hazō deftly navigated the challenge of Noburi resenting his leadership and thereby established the OG Uplift dynamic that has continued ever since.
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What people seem to be scanning as 'playing therapist' is actually 'good leadership'. You don't just move people around like pieces on a chessboard. You have to take time to understand their hopes, dreams, and fears, and help them accomplish the things they want to accomplish. Most people want to become more fully-realized versions of themselves. That's how you build loyalty - you show people that you care about them and that working with you is not only a matter of them helping you achieve their goals, no matter how convergent they may be, but you'll also help them achieve their goals.

And leaders absolutely need to help their subordinates manage interpersonal conflict during projects. Leaders are responsible for keeping teams working together and working well together. If Mari and Keiko have friction then that means that the Isan team is going to be functioning at less-than-peak-performance, and if that results in a failure of the mission, then BAD SHIT is going to happen.

The quest is a reasonably-realistic/coherent simulation/extrapolation of the presented circumstances. That means that managing that if we don't spend time 'playing therapist' then we're going to wind up killboxed and not getting out of it.
Eisenhelm said:
We create a set of three seals, the first to convert the chakra into light, the second to get that light moving into a single direction and a third to aim it. Now we have more time to fix the seal and take down the dragons whit lasers so they don't bother the array.
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(To briefly take this a little more seriously we'd need to do more work because the light needs to be coherent and I am skeptical that the light produced by seals would be coherent without a lot of work, but a big fuckin' magnifying glass would be doable.)

(...I wonder if you can focus chakra itself and fire it at folks.)
 
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