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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
Honestly after reading through this, a little more confidence returned to me. Hazou's source of resolve isn't the right kind to overcome Jiraiya, but it honestly sounds like a direct counter to everything the Hagoromo stand for, especially in Hazou's perspective. I'm not a game mechanics guy so I don't know how that might actually work out differently in practice, but based solely on in-universe logic this might just be a jonin Hazou is at least capable of staring down, if not overcoming.
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I expect mechanically it would look like us being able to tag most of our aspects and maybe even get a tag on some aspect like "You represent everything that I'm trying to fix in this world."

MMKII said:
I feel as if this whole killing intent thing can be possibly circumvented in this instance.

A spar is primarily a test of combat abilities, not a duel to the death, and one could reasonably classify killing intent as prohibited (or at least inappropriate) to use in this context in the same way that one could prohibit the usage of full-lethal armaments intended to kill the other person. It's outside the intended scope of the engagement.

tl;dr

no killing intent fox only final destination
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We've had multiple people use jonin aura on us without wanting to kill us. Jonin aura is probably the least lethal thing in most jonins' toolkit. I don't think we'll be able to successfully argue that you can't use jonin aura in a spar.
 
firestorm440 said:
KI = jonin aura? I recall J-man describing Keiko's use of KI as similar, but I don't know if that means same mechanic lesser result or different mechanic similar result.
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My point is that I don't want Lord Hag to go "I roll Intimidation against all of you, I win trivially, thus defeating the entire point of the exercise." I think this is a reasonable request or assumption to make: since within the bounds of the contest (spar, fight, what have you), it is unreasonable for a participant to default to this scenario and fulfill the implicit requirements of the scenario.

In other words, this would be like us blowing up the entirety of the field from 2 miles away and calling it a victory: obviously not, right?

In the universe in which we are playing Lord Hag in this fight, I doubt that "We pick Killing Intent, combat won!" is a strategy the QMs will deem viable in the context.
 
MMKII said:
My point is that I don't want Lord Hag to go "I roll Intimidation against all of you, I win trivially, thus defeating the entire point of the exercise." I think this is a reasonable request or assumption to make: since within the bounds of the contest (spar, fight, what have you), it is unreasonable for a participant to default to this scenario and fulfill the implicit requirements of the scenario.

In other words, this would be like us blowing up the entirety of the field from 2 miles away and calling it a victory: obviously not, right?

In the universe in which we are playing Lord Hag in this fight, I doubt that "We pick Killing Intent, combat won!" is a strategy the QMs will deem viable in the context.
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In a spar for the purposes of training, you'd be correct. We're still calling this a "spar", but I feel like the subtext is sufficiently clear to everyone involved that that's only a fig leaf to make the arrangement legal.
 
Sentient Tree said:
We've had multiple people use jonin aura on us without wanting to kill us. Jonin aura is probably the least lethal thing in most jonins' toolkit. I don't think we'll be able to successfully argue that you can't use jonin aura in a spar.
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I don't think "literally anything goes ninja cheaters haha" is actually going to hold up in the context though?

firestorm440 said:
In a spar for the purposes of training, you'd be correct. We're still calling this a "spar", but I feel like the subtext is sufficiently clear to everyone involved that that's only a fig leaf to make the arrangement legal.
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The social obligations of such an arrangement are as much a weapon as they are an ornament though, since we should be able to maneuver him trivially into an engagement where KI is not used, if he even presses us(also, why would he? It seems like a slam dunk from his viewpoint even in the strict physical combat scenario) on the matter. No true Jonin would be worried to accept such terms, etc etc.
 
MMKII said:
The social obligations of such an arrangement are as much a weapon as they are an ornament though, since we should be able to maneuver him trivially into an engagement where KI is not used, if he even presses us(also, why would he? It seems like a slam dunk from his viewpoint even in the strict physical combat scenario) on the matter. No true Jonin would be worried to accept such terms, etc etc.
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I disagree strongly with the description of "trivial" and I think we'll be asked to give up a fair amount in exchange for that concession if we do manage to get it at all - Jiraiya's seals, if the Hags have two brain cells to rub together, under the parallel logic of "no true Sannin, etc etc".
 
firestorm440 said:
I disagree strongly with the description of "trivial" and I think we'll be asked to give up a fair amount in exchange for that concession if we do manage to get it at all - Jiraiya's seals, if the Hags have two brain cells to rub together, under the parallel logic of "no true Sannin, etc etc".
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We can then point out that Jiraiya had a paperwork marriage with a foreign "scarlet woman" (or whatever terminology the Hag idiot-bigots might use), and lived a happy, loving life with a non-monogamous relationship dynamic. Which proves that you don't need a Hag officiate to validate a marriage.

(And if they try to say/imply the gods took offense and caused Jiraiya to die because of this, we murder all of them. Flat out bomb their compound. All of them. Make Orochimaru look like a goddamned saint.)

I think that there's a great deal of layered political snubbing inherent in a Hokage having a paperwork marriage (does Jiraiya's notes have any personal venting about the Hag's bullshit?). That probably undermined the Hag's authority by a significant amount, and we can use that as a defense if they try to spout any bullshit moral claim to Jiraiya's legacy.
 
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firestorm440 said:
Jiraiya's seals, if the Hags have two brain cells to rub together, under the parallel logic of "no true Sannin, etc etc".
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I personally wasn't planning heavily on entering this fight with the intention of using any of Jmans seals and didn't really estimate that we would be able to snag any to use.
 
I mean if lord hag wants to spend an action using his jounin aura on a shadow clone he's more than welcome to. That's just an action where he isn't punching us in the face
 
MMKII said:
I don't think "literally anything goes ninja cheaters haha" is actually going to hold up in the context though?
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It's not ninja cheating though? Jonin aura is a natural part of being a jonin, and is something a jonin would naturally expect to use in anything with stakes, especially a spar since it's a way to incapacitate us without killing us.

MMKII said:
I personally wasn't planning heavily on entering this fight with the intention of using any of Jmans seals and didn't really estimate that we would be able to snag any to use.
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One of the things they could say we can't use would be summons/shadow clones. There's even an argument for it, since the spar is supposed to be 3v3.

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Oneiros said:
I mean if lord hag wants to spend an action using his jounin aura on a shadow clone he's more than welcome to. That's just an action where he isn't punching us in the face
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That's an option, although there's a chance that it will transfer when the shadow clone pops from falling over foaming at the mouth.

It would certainly be nice if it cost him a full action, but I'm betting on it being a supplemental action. Just seems more likely to me.

We really need to just practice with Mari and find out what fighting someone who has jonin aura is like.
 
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A thing to remember is that we have stood up to a jounin aura and not backed down. When Asuma tried to kill box us we didn't respond at all. It's only essies who have had any physical effect on us
 
I think it also must require focus or actual immediate intent to kill.. otherwise why didn't the jōnin in hot springs disable everyone in the room and 1v1 Mari? Or as someone pointed out, why were there any upright chūnin at all at the Battle of the Gods?

Kakashi runs around killing people by hand like he doesn't have an instant-win, always-on attack that only requires him to stop suppressing it:

"Captain Kakashi was a single blue line moving across the battlefield, fast enough that you could only tell where he was from the afterimages. He never slowed, and every time the line changed direction, it left a corpse behind."

All that being said... We have repeatedly been told about the massive power discrepancies between chūnin and jōnin, and so if all it takes is a little creative stacking of the odds for a chūnin to beat a jōnin in straight combat, I would be very surprised, even if the jōnin aura doesn't turn out to be an instant win condition for whatever reason
 
Oneiros said:
A thing to remember is that we have stood up to a jounin aura and not backed down. When Asuma tried to kill box us we didn't respond at all. It's only essies who have had any physical effect on us
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Unfortunately for that theory, we got WoG on discord that EJ wrote that scene with the idea that Asuma was holding back from overwhelming Hazou because he wanted Hazou to back down of his own volition.
 
RandomOTP said:
We can then point out that Jiraiya had a paperwork marriage with a foreign "scarlet woman" (or whatever terminology the Hag idiot-bigots might use), and lived a happy, loving life with a non-monogamous relationship dynamic. Which proves that you don't need a Hag officiate to validate a marriage.

(And if they try to say/imply the gods took offense and caused Jiraiya to die because of this, we murder all of them. Flat out bomb their compound. All of them. Make Orochimaru look like a goddamned saint.)

I think that there's a great deal of layered political snubbing inherent in a Hokage having a paperwork marriage (does Jiraiya's notes have any personal venting about the Hag's bullshit?). That probably undermined the Hag's authority by a significant amount, and we can use that as a defense if they try to spout any bullshit moral claim to Jiraiya's legacy.
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Jiraiya and Mari were wed before and with the unanimous blessing of the council, which included the Hagoromo clan head.

-and the ceremony was only ever intended to be delayed, not forgone.
 
Shrooms said:
Honestly after reading through this, a little more confidence returned to me. Hazou's source of resolve isn't the right kind to overcome Jiraiya, but it honestly sounds like a direct counter to everything the Hagoromo stand for, especially in Hazou's perspective. I'm not a game mechanics guy so I don't know how that might actually work out differently in practice, but based solely on in-universe logic this might just be a jonin Hazou is at least capable of staring down, if not overcoming.
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I believe you're reading the situation completely wrong here. In the scene, Jiraiya is explaining to Hazou why Hazou's conviction is not strong and pure enough to form or withstand aura. It doesn't matter who's aura Hazou is matched up against, Hazou will still fail due to his own weakness. Even though the Hagoromo are against everything that Hazou stands for, it won't strengthen Hazou's resolve any. Logically, he has more reason to fight oppose them, but logic isn't what forms a Jonin aura -- as Jiraiya explains himself.

An aura requires fanaticism, single-minded devotion, unshakeable confidence. Hazou believes in and is passionate about Uplift, but not to the point where it could be the only thought in his mind at a moment. Uplift is also an abstract concept, and harder to apply to a direct confrontation. Hazou would need to see the opponent as nothing more than an obstacle to Uplift that must be removed, and he can't compartmentalize and dehumanize an opponent to that extent yet.

Furthermore, Hazou doesn't actually have much killing intent. He gets angry and can want revenge on people, sure. But Hazou's focus doesn't compare to Keiko's, who has her own fledgling aura despite being a chuunin. To me, it seems that Hazou is willing to kill someone, but doesn't focus on the kill itself, since it's usually a means to an end. Iirc, Hazou experienced Orochimaru's Jounin aura/killing intent felt like all the different ways Hazou would be torn apart and ruthlessly dissected.

In order to acquire an aura, I think we'd need to change the way Hazou thinks and feels, especially with regards to his core resolve. Hazou strives for Uplift, but can we/he say he has unshakable confidence in it? I don't think so. I don't see a great way to change Hazou's resolve either. As players, we can make plans and take actions, but it's much harder to dictate what and and how Hazou thinks and feels. (If that were easy to do, we could turn Hazou into a hyper-efficient sociopath that could voluntarily choose to be freed from the restrictions of empathy at will.)

Oneiros said:
I mean if lord hag wants to spend an action using his jounin aura on a shadow clone he's more than welcome to. That's just an action where he isn't punching us in the face
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We've seen plenty of times that a Jounin aura has lingering after effects. Hazou/his clone would still be reeling and incapacitated after the aura passes. And then we'd get punched in the face.
 
@Velorien @eaglejarl @OliWhail

I got a question, was Keiko always planned to be a lesbian or did that part of her character just evolve organically, and if it did evolve organically when did her make the jump to being a lesbian? (That statements sounds pretty weird in a non meta context lol)
 
Pharos said:
I believe you're reading the situation completely wrong here. In the scene, Jiraiya is explaining to Hazou why Hazou's conviction is not strong and pure enough to form or withstand aura. It doesn't matter who's aura Hazou is matched up against, Hazou will still fail due to his own weakness. Even though the Hagoromo are against everything that Hazou stands for, it won't strengthen Hazou's resolve any. Logically, he has more reason to fight oppose them, but logic isn't what forms a Jonin aura -- as Jiraiya explains himself.

An aura requires fanaticism, single-minded devotion, unshakeable confidence. Hazou believes in and is passionate about Uplift, but not to the point where it could be the only thought in his mind at a moment. Uplift is also an abstract concept, and harder to apply to a direct confrontation. Hazou would need to see the opponent as nothing more than an obstacle to Uplift that must be removed, and he can't compartmentalize and dehumanize an opponent to that extent yet.

Furthermore, Hazou doesn't actually have much killing intent. He gets angry and can want revenge on people, sure. But Hazou's focus doesn't compare to Keiko's, who has her own fledgling aura despite being a chuunin. To me, it seems that Hazou is willing to kill someone, but doesn't focus on the kill itself, since it's usually a means to an end. Iirc, Hazou experienced Orochimaru's Jounin aura/killing intent felt like all the different ways Hazou would be torn apart and ruthlessly dissected.

In order to acquire an aura, I think we'd need to change the way Hazou thinks and feels, especially with regards to his core resolve. Hazou strives for Uplift, but can we/he say he has unshakable confidence in it? I don't think so. I don't see a great way to change Hazou's resolve either. As players, we can make plans and take actions, but it's much harder to dictate what and and how Hazou thinks and feels. (If that were easy to do, we could turn Hazou into a hyper-efficient sociopath that could voluntarily choose to be freed from the restrictions of empathy at will.)


We've seen plenty of times that a Jounin aura has lingering after effects. Hazou/his clone would still be reeling and incapacitated after the aura passes. And then we'd get punched in the face.
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We've had lingering effects from essies flexing on us. A jounin has never caused us to have any problems.
 
Since Jiraiya said it was safe for Hazou to test trying to resist the aura, we can just test this with Mari rather than trying to guess! It should only take a few minutes in-universe.

@eaglejarl @Velorien, would that be a scene you'd like to write and we should put it in a plan, or is this something you can just give us the results for in a WOG?
 
ting said:
Since Jiraiya said it was safe for Hazou to test trying to resist the aura, we can just test this with Mari rather than trying to guess! It should only take a few minutes in-universe.

@eaglejarl @Velorien, would that be a scene you'd like to write and we should put it in a plan, or is this something you can just give us the results for in a WOG?
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Go for it. I think that could be interesting.
 
eaglejarl said:
@faflec What do we know about Mari's aura? I remember there was an incident where she tried to resist Yagura but I can't find it.
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Velorien said:
But Mari refused to surrender. She would not be dominated by a man. She would not be turned into a helpless puppet for Yagura to use for his own pleasure. Not ever.

She was the flame, untouchable and irresistible, dancing and devouring, giving life or destruction on a whim. All the ninja wire in the world could not bind the flame, and any who tried to force their will onto her would burn to ashes.
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Velorien said:
Mari would have been lost, except that she had once experienced a pressure even more overwhelming: the Mizukage's will, backed by a creature yet more powerful and more inimical to life. The thought sparked within her: This is less. And fire only needed one spark.

The best of the mountains were volcanoes. Rivers of fire flowed through them, relentlessly seeking freedom until at last they obtained it in a burst of explosive strength. Mari was fire in the dark, melting everything in her way as she clawed her way up from the depths. Stillness could not beat motion. Darkness could not beat light. If the fire was hot enough, no peak was too frozen to burn.

She couldn't reach. The mountain was too tall, its roots too deep. Unlike the unending flames of a true volcano, fed by countless interconnected streams, Mari burned alone. She had only the force of her determination, and there was still too far to go when the magma began to cool.

In the physical world, Mari channelled that incomplete measure of freedom. She couldn't counter the enemy's aura, but she could leap away, hoping that distance would diminish its power.
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