Alright, no-one's voiced anything against the idea of the half of the plan Noumero cut out not being retroactive, so I'll accept that people are generally okay with that happening and put the sections in the Plan Cache.

(tbh I'd have done it earlier but was lazy)
Plan Cache:
  • Hokageship:
    • Inform Naruto about the vote.
    • Discuss swing votes:
      • Hagoromo: Help pay off their loans?
      • Aburame: Can Mari get him on our side again?
      • Inuzuka: Leave to Naruto; he's trustworthy and hasn't soured relations with them.
  • We should push for having Asuma take Naruto as an administrative assistant/apprentice when he's Hokage.
    • Naruto is still rather useful, what with being groomed for the position, deeply loyal to leaf, very well disposed to the Sarutobi.
    • He is still recovering from his ordeal, so some allowances for that would be needed.
    • On the other hand as Leaf's resident Naruto summoner he can take care of paperwork, and other administrivia extremely efficiently. Letting you focus on the actual job.
  • Maybe consider inter-village adoption (Doigama, Kato...)?
  • Noburi: Schedule an appointment with Kabuto to check bloodline interactions with SC/Summoning.
    • Consider investigating him on adoption.
    • Yes, the Toad Scroll is Noburi's.
  • Gather information on Akatsuki:
    • Noburi: When visiting the Tower, grab their profiles.
    • Kagome: Summarize their book.
  • Snakes:
    • Hazou: Learn their culture/predispositions from Summons and Jiraiya's notes.
    • Keiko: Message them via Pangolins.
      • Send Jiraiya's letter to Orochimaru along (in case he's alive).
      • Did Orochimaru leave them his will? Jiraiya wrote him a pardon, we'd want to carry out his wishes.
  • (If Keiko agreed to invite Ami) Hazou:
    • Meet with Shikamaru (urgent).
      • Be sympathetic, but skip condolences.
      • (Concerned) Did he ensure Ami can attend Keiko's wedding? Ami'll be displeased otherwise.
      • Suggest postponing just the ceremony to give her time.
      • We'll take care of the rest... for twelve hours.
    • Send Ami a(n encrypted) message:
      • Update her on the wedding.
      • Offer any assistance in getting into Leaf IFF it wouldn't cost us politically.
        • Suggestion: Volunteer to transport/escort one of our merchants to Leaf. At luxury speeds.
      • She totally owes us another favor.

Past Plans:
Speaking of Unity by faflec
Stealing the Snake by Oneiros/MMKII

Sometimes when we're making a plan we have a good idea that's just outside the temporal scope of the update, but we don't want to cut it from the plan because we might forget by the next cycle. This adds unnecessary words that could have been spent fleshing out the rest of the plan, and may outright cost XP in the worst cases.

This plan cache will hold these subsections so they don't fall into the void between planning cycles. Just ping me with the subsection and, unless it's wildly unreasonable, I'll edit it into the post. I'll keep them there for a while until they either make it into a winning plan, fall out of favour, or the context significantly changes. Depending on circumstances, they might end up in my Side Project Cache, or they might be dropped, and I'll make sure to be transparent about what I'm doing.

I'll do my best to quote this post after every update, so that planmakers can get an easy reminder about what we never quite got to last cycle.
 
@faflec Thanks. I'm not sure I read that as Mari going for the hat, I think it was her talking about the theoretical possibility. You could be right though. It's ambiguous. I understand why that conversation was easier not to write, but I wish the full Tsunade political analysis had been on screen.
 
[X] Lounge about and catch up on reading Icha Icha series while waiting for retrocausal time to end
 
On the contrary, there's a lot of stuff that can only happen during downtime.
Yeah I misspoke. I meant to say that people make plans like this is their assumption. If the players trusted hazou to do stuff like gather intelligence and talk to people, they wouldn't treat having one day unmanaged like a disaster.

That said hazou's competence with doing things without a very specific plan was...wildly inconsistent to say the least, ranging form "prevented world war" to "killbox" so I get that people get anxious.
Edit:yeah, killbox was the worst example possible, let's go with "shouting at librarians".
 
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Yeah I misspoke. I meant to say that people make plans like this is their assumption. If the players trusted hazou to do stuff like gather intelligence and talk to people, they wouldn't treat having one day unmanaged like a disaster.

That said hazou's competence with doing things without a very specific plan was...wildly inconsistent to say the least, ranging form "prevented world war" to "killbox" so I get that people get anxious.
TBF, the killbox incident was caused because we were too specific with our plan. Hazou literally said the line we provided him.
 
Yeah I misspoke. I meant to say that people make plans like this is their assumption. If the players trusted hazou to do stuff like gather intelligence and talk to people, they wouldn't treat having one day unmanaged like a disaster.

That said hazou's competence with doing things without a very specific plan was...wildly inconsistent to say the least, ranging form "prevented world war" to "killbox" so I get that people get anxious.
Point of order, "Killbox" was a very specific plan, that was kind of the problem that caused that whole debacle.

What you should be looking for, in my opinion, is the times something came up in the middle of an update and the QMs simulated Hazou's reaction purely according to his characterization.
 
Point of order, "Killbox" was a very specific plan, that was kind of the problem that caused that whole debacle.

What you should be looking for, in my opinion, is the times something came up in the middle of an update and the QMs simulated Hazou's reaction purely according to his characterization.
Like his reaction to books.

Those scary, scary books...

:p
 
Sidebar in which I express solely my own opinions on a topic I have not yet raised with the other QMs:

Lately, I've noticed an attitude developing of "Forget the word limits on plans, it is important that we fit all this stuff in!" This results in y'all not getting the bonus XP you should have gotten, or actually getting negative XP. What's actually happening, however, is that there's more stuff being put in the plan than the QMs can write in one update, so it was all wasted. We are left sad at not finishing the plan, you are left frustrated at not having the plan finished, you lose XP, and no one wins.

This concerns me a great deal.

I strongly request that when making the next plan you really focus on getting that bonus XP. It's fine to have only one or two scenes in the update instead of a dozen.

To show what I'm talking about, let's dissect the latest plan. It's 399 words -- for which I applaud y'all, since that one last word that you saved had a lot of marginal value! -- but let's review what it covers. I've labeled things as 'Scene', meaning they require significant wordcount, or 'Vignette', which is something that can be breezed over quickly or even offscreened.




Vignette: Talk to the family about adopting Akane and Tenten.
Scene 1: Talk to Akane (assuming she's alive) and offer adoption.
Scene/Vignette: Talk to Tenten, offer adoption. (This could easily be a full scene.)
Scene 2: Discuss Lee. Keiko feels strongly enough on the subject that it's definitely a scene, not a vignette and definitely not offscreenable.
Vignette: Discuss inter-village adoption.

Scenes: 2.5
Vignettes: 2.5


Scenes: 3.5
Vignettes: 2.5


S: 4.5
V: 2.5


The appointment and Toad scroll bits could be V but talking to Kabuto about adoption is definitely an S. On the other hand, the above does not explicitly state that you're making the offer, just that you're considering it, so let's be generous and call all of this a V.

S: 4.5
V: 3.5


This is logically all one conversation, but it's huge. I'm calling it 1.5 scenes.

S: 6
V: 3.5


S: 7
V: 3.5

This could easily be two separate scenes, but I'm being generous and assuming that the entire Tower part could be offscreened and rolled into the Kagome conversation.


S: 8
V: 3.5

Some of this could be offscreened, some of it could be combined. Let's call it 1 scene.


S: 9
V: 3.5


S: 10.5
V: 3.5

Another absolutely enormous chunk, counting as 1.5 scenes.


Grand total: 10.5 scenes and 3.5 vignettes.

I haven't actually done the math, but let's say that my updates average 3,000 words and 3 scenes, meaning that a scene is about 1k words.[1]​ I think that's actually generous -- I suspect I actually average more like 2.5 scenes, but let's round up to make the math easy. We'll also assume that a vignette averages 250 words (about 500 if it's half a scene, or 0 if it can be offscreened).

This plan requires almost 12,000 words. To put that in perspective, a short novel is about 60,000 words and there's very roughly 300 words on a paperback-book page. Most authors, me among them, average about 500 words of writing per hour, so this plan is looking for a solid 24 hours of writing, or roughly a part-time job worth. That's leaving out questions of "How much time will the QMs need to spend on worldbuilding in order to write this?" Assume that everything to do with the 7th Path will require worldbuilding time, as will anything that would have game mechanics associated with it. Call that an extra hour (and I'm being generous -- it's likely more) for discussion in QM chat, assuming that we're all available and compos mentis and that things go smoothly.

Regardless, this plan covers AT LEAST 4 updates. That means you could have left out 3/4 of what was in here, AND given more detail if you'd wanted to, AND still gotten yourself a bonus XP.


Please. There's a reason that we offer bonus XP for short plans. If you're not getting that XP and there's more than one scene in the plan then you're doing it wrong. Just cut down the number of things you're trying to do instead of copyediting the plan to use fewer words.


[1] Note that 3k words is about 6-8 hours of writing once editing is taken into account. Add another 3 hours (average) if there's combat, since it takes a while to figure out all the best tactics and then do the mechanics, and then there is inevitably some mistake that forces me to go back and redo a whole bunch of stuff.​

EDIT: I didn't allow for the idea that some vigenettes could be offscreened. Fixed.​


Just reading through this now, and it's possible there's some context I've missed. I haven't read anything after this post yet, so hopefully I'm not harping on something that's already been said, or that's already been fought over.

I feel like a lot of that plan's word-count is covering contingency. Those contingencies could be removed if the QM's consistently interpreted the plans favorably. Unfortunately I, like a lot of players I'm sure, think that if we don't include the line "Tenten: Let Keiko offer – she knows her best." something terrible is going to happen. Alternatively all of these lines

  • Akane/Tenten: Easy picks. Make offers ASAP if others agree:
    • Akane: Make it together – she's already family.
    • Tenten: Let Keiko offer – she knows her best.
  • Lee:
    • He's talented, and all alone after Gai's death.

Could be replaced with "offer adoption to Akane, Tenten, and Lee". That's a pretty significant word count reduction. I don't see that kind of detail getting better unless the QM's seriously change how much we get fucked over for missing small details. If you want to reduce that kind of detail to need to consistently show that you're steel-manning our plans.

The other big problem is the we use approval voting, and omnibus plans are going to tend to pass more often. Plans that feature a bunch of scenes, but feature the scenes that you personally like, are more likely to pass than a more specific plan. Big plans have general appeal and are going to get voted in more often. One way you could deal with that is have the QM's select from the top 3 plans voted in, of course that has a lot of potential for salt as well. I really don't know how to deal with that.

You could just take several updates to completely finish a plan, locking out further voting? That could be punishment for having too many scenes in a plan. You could also divide the votes by the number of scenes in a plan. Like the last plan pretty clearly had 4 different top-level scenes in it. Maybe some function where longer plans get fewer votes? I really don't know.

Right now we are undergoing almost the exact same processes that cause omnibus bills to be created, and that's a problem.
 
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Given we are now clan head and playing clan management quest instead of missing-nin quest I think the format of plans should change as well.
 
Just reading through this now, and it's possible there's some context I've missed. I haven't read anything after this post yet, so hopefully I'm not harping on something that's already been said, or that's already been fought over.

I feel like a lot of that plan's word-count is covering contingency. Those contingencies could be removed if the QM's consistently interpreted the plans favorably. Unfortunately I, like a lot of players I'm sure, think that if we don't include the line "Tenten: Let Keiko offer – she knows her best." something terrible is going to happen. Alternatively all of these lines
The problem isn't the word count it is the number of scenes. I think the solution would be limit it so that plans can't include more than 3 significant meetings / social occasions, conflicts, or info dumps.
"Adopt Akane, Talk to Tsunade about being Hokage, Convince Mari to become Naruto's therapist" is more work for the QMs than "Talk to Tsunade" and 150 words of details of contingencies about different dialogue trees.
 
@Noumero Things I would like to see added to your plan, in order of decreasing 'give-a-fuck-about-it':
  • Update the clan on adoption results. Mari should know Akane's said yes, and everyone should know Tenten did not.
  • Ask Noburi if can schedule an appointment with Kabuto to test bloodline interactions with SC.
  • Ask Keiko if her ceremony could be delayed to allow Ami time to arrive (maybe? kinda iffy on this, we might not need the time).
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • If we bring this idea up to Keiko, then there's no reason for us to meet Shikamaru, since she could talk about with him on her own. This means we don't get twelve very valuable hours of Lord Nara, and our claim on Ami's favour is weaker, since we did much less legwork to earn it.
I'm thinking about bringing up Lailoken's idea about getting into contact with Leaf yakuza... but I have a vague feeling that we were told they don't have coherent leadership anymore. What do we know about them?
@Noumero There's no need to send Ami an encrypted message if we're using a ninja messenger normally used for Kage level diplomacy.
Why? Do we want cheating Hyuuga stinkers to read it?
 
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Hyuuga stationed at key points in the village or near its perimeter, told by Hiashi to spy on any suspicious activity, such as unexpected activity of Hokage's couriers. Unless you're proposing we research moving anti-hyuuga seals or build a tunnel out of the village and cover its entire length in anti-hyuuga seals.
 
Hyuuga stationed at key points in the village or near its perimeter, told by Hiashi to spy on any suspicious activity, such as unexpected activity of Hokage's couriers. Unless you're proposing we research moving anti-hyuuga seals or build a tunnel out of the village and cover its entire length in anti-hyuuga seals.
Jiraiya should have moving privacy seals in his notes. This problem has to have come up before and we already know he could seal private messages because of his will and the other notes he left behind.
 
Jiraiya should have moving privacy seals in his notes. This problem has to have come up before and we already know he could seal private messages because of his will and the other notes he left behind.
Fair enough, but it'll take days research them. And the Hyuuga would still notice; it'd be even worse than encryption, it'd be something we're concealing specifically from them.
 
The problem isn't the word count it is the number of scenes. I think the solution would be limit it so that plans can't include more than 3 significant meetings / social occasions, conflicts, or info dumps.
"Adopt Akane, Talk to Tsunade about being Hokage, Convince Mari to become Naruto's therapist" is more work for the QMs than "Talk to Tsunade" and 150 words of details of contingencies about different dialogue trees.
Except what counts as a 'scene' is vague and undefined, and that would cause no end of trouble for both sides. A simple one-line minor meeting with someone to advance some goal might be off-screenable and not a scene, or it could be a full blown half-chapter on its own if the person reacts in an interesting way, and we have no way of knowing ahead of time.

Do we ask the QMs what counts as a scene? That introduces a ton of headache because either the QMs are constantly on call or planmakers are hamstrung not knowing if they're even allowed to add a line to their plan. Every little thing that is probably off-screen stuff but might be a scene has to be vetted by the QMs, and no-one ends up happy.

Furthermore, the simple knowledge of whether a line counts as a scene or off-screen is a problem. If we know that talking to X about something is off-screen but talking to Y about it is a full scene, we have learned OOC information about how X or Y will react to that subject that we're not supposed to have. Making constant honor promises not to metagame would be extremely annoying for the players, and it's not likely we could stop it all anyways.

I was a little lax about the plan cache as a result of the one-plan-only restriction for the retroactive plan, but I do intend to push for usage of it more in the future. All it takes is someone noticing that we have a lot of scenes in the plan and suggesting we cache some of them for the next plan to free up room for more detail and to save QM spoons, and we'll be able to cut down scene count per plan with no loss.
 
Except what counts as a 'scene' is vague and undefined, and that would cause no end of trouble for both sides. A simple one-line minor meeting with someone to advance some goal might be off-screenable and not a scene, or it could be a full blown half-chapter on its own if the person reacts in an interesting way, and we have no way of knowing ahead of time.
If we go buy flowers for a date and then get kidnapped because we overhead a secret meeting between the beekeeper and telescope conspiracy groups then all our plans for the date are out the window regardless. Players can't anticipate everything but they can make a good faith effort. If those plans get derailed then it is the hands of Hazou and the QMs to resolve things until we get to the next vote where we can react to unexpected developments.
 
Except what counts as a 'scene' is vague and undefined, and that would cause no end of trouble for both sides. A simple one-line minor meeting with someone to advance some goal might be off-screenable and not a scene, or it could be a full blown half-chapter on its own if the person reacts in an interesting way, and we have no way of knowing ahead of time.

Do we ask the QMs what counts as a scene? That introduces a ton of headache because either the QMs are constantly on call or planmakers are hamstrung not knowing if they're even allowed to add a line to their plan. Every little thing that is probably off-screen stuff but might be a scene has to be vetted by the QMs, and no-one ends up happy.

Furthermore, the simple knowledge of whether a line counts as a scene or off-screen is a problem. If we know that talking to X about something is off-screen but talking to Y about it is a full scene, we have learned OOC information about how X or Y will react to that subject that we're not supposed to have. Making constant honor promises not to metagame would be extremely annoying for the players, and it's not likely we could stop it all anyways.

I was a little lax about the plan cache as a result of the one-plan-only restriction for the retroactive plan, but I do intend to push for usage of it more in the future. All it takes is someone noticing that we have a lot of scenes in the plan and suggesting we cache some of them for the next plan to free up room for more detail and to save QM spoons, and we'll be able to cut down scene count per plan with no loss.
You're right, but a lot of the time the scenes are going to be relatively predictable. So let's just make our best guess? That'll work most of the time, and that's good enough. If the QMs want to surprise us they can do that and at the worst case things get delayed to a future update now and then. That's very much a net positive over them getting delayed virtually all the time.
 
We've got money. Let's float them a loan ourselves so they can pay off the Hyuuga and owe us instead, with the promise that we won't constantly leverage it against them so they'll be free.

How much money does one well-established clan owe the single richest clan in the history of the world? The Yakuza have information, influence, and established reputation for contract enforcement.



Hyuuga stationed at key points in the village or near its perimeter, told by Hiashi to spy on any suspicious activity, such as unexpected activity of Hokage's couriers. Unless you're proposing we research moving anti-hyuuga seals or build a tunnel out of the village and cover its entire length in anti-hyuuga seals.

Just put it in a storage scroll, though anything that looks like subterfuge is going to be dangerous.


I'm thinking about bringing up Lailoken's idea about getting into contact with Leaf yakuza... but I have a vague feeling that we were told they don't have coherent leadership anymore. What do we know about them?

You're thinking of Rock's underworld.

"Hey, what about the Chivalrous Organisation in Leaf?" Noburi asked quickly. "You guys must have your own channels for dealing with underworld business."

The Oyabun shook his head regretfully. "Would that such an option were open to us. I take it the Hokage has not briefed you on the state of the Akasugi Organisation and its influence in the Fire Country."

"I'm afraid not."

The Oyabun lounged back slightly.

"Once upon a time, in what we of Water might call happier days, the entire Fire underworld was held in the unyielding grasp of a singular individual who wielded it almost as an extension of Leaf's clandestine activities. The Akasugi operated solely on his sufferance, and in the full awareness that, should they fail to perform to his specifications, they would be cast down and he would choose a more useful organisation to raise up in their stead. He had learned well the lessons of the Earth Country, you see. Some might even speculate that he contributed to maintaining its tragic status quo, though no such insinuation will ever pass my lips.

"Unfortunately, all things must end. The singular individual perished in an unfortunate accident, and the Akasugi Organisation exploited the advantageous position in which he'd placed them to trigger a process of explosive expansion. The Third Hokage, may his spirit be one with the Will of Fire forever, chose not to curb them as much as he could have, for reasons I'm certain the Fifth could explain better than I. And we of Water, who had until that point enjoyed uncontested control over certain spheres of influence, found ourselves engaged in a bitter struggle for what my complacent predecessors considered 'rightfully ours'. The impact of that struggle rippled through the other maritime powers and provoked a shadow war no less complex and vicious than the shinobi world wars you are familiar with. The aftermath redrew many boundaries, paving the way for the ascendancy of the Nettō Association, breaking the pirate lords' stranglehold over southern Tea, and having many other effects which are entirely irrelevant to you, save that it left us and the Akasugi as implacable rivals in an ironic parallel to our countries' respective villages."

"And you will have an enormous advantage over them if you can get the Hokage on your side," Hazō reasoned.
 
Why can't we just higher a ninja to run our message?

Courier ninja are either carrying diplomatic messages or orders/supplies for cities and outposts, no? What exactly is the protocol for interacting with a courier ninja carrying message that's not Kage level?

Why would a ninja clan have relatively urgent interaction with foreigner?
 
Maybe talking to Ami just isn't that important after all? We've got resources locally that are pretty damn competent and Ami couldn't get in country to help us directly anyway.
 
I mentioned this on Slac Discord, but I think there's a possible situation that we (VIHH) may have missed, that Hazou himself does not yet have all of the details to be able to know about yet.

1. Akane is not, in fact dead.
2. Hazou interacted with Mari in a manner that demonstrated an increased ability to perceive the motivations of another person, and got what, from his perspective, is one of the best possible outcomes as a result.
3. Mari is a highly skilled Social-spec ninja.
4. Mari's Social stress track was solidly trashed due to high stress levels from Aqua-mom.
5. Social-spec ninjas require a very high ability to perceive the motivations of other people in order to enable you to receive your best possible outcomes from interacting with those other people.
6. 5 + 2 = ...
7. Akane successfully helped pull Mari out of her downward spiral, and back up into normal functioning, while we were out.
8. Mari was fucking with us and/or attempting to teach us Socials in the best way she knows how.

In conclusion, Hazou didn't fix Mari.

And that's okay! Because Hazou's fix wasn't going to be a real fix anyways, it was just another form of "try to suppress the problem into being fixed" like everyone else. Akane, however, wanted to help Mari for selfless reasons, as well as having her own social competencies enough to actually be able to help.

Hopefully we can soon talk to Akane about what happened while we were out so we can find out about her "talking to Mari to heal her psychic wounds"-no-Jutsu and then incorporate that into Hazou's mindset/worldview. Plus, discovering the layer beneath Mari's supposed "recovery" will probably earn us a hair-ruffling.
 
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