No, I mean figure it out in character.

We can already do that up to a scaling and a shift with a pile of aptitude tests and measuring learning rates of techniques. More or less.

Since the exact number is meaningless besides the information it conveys (You are This Good in relation to everyone else), I don't see the need to spend effort devising some clever scheme to find out the magic numbers in character?
 
Last edited:
We can already do that up to a scaling and a shift with a pile of aptitude tests and measuring learning rates of techniques. More or less.

Since the exact number is meaningless besides the information it conveys (You are This Good in relation to everyone else), I don't see the need to spend effort devising some clever scheme to find out the magic numbers in character?
Figuring out the magic number lets us pick out our apprentices better.
 
Figuring out the magic number lets us pick out our apprentices better.
No it doesn't.

Saying "I would like someone with a talent coefficient of 3.5 " is more or less equivalent to "I want a student who is consistently in at least the 80-90th percentile of their academy year, if not more." which ultimately boils down to "Give me the kids that do really well." at the end of the day. Screwing around with the particulars of the middle statement will give you weird things (What if everyone is a genius this year? What if only five kids can count to six without choking on their own drool?) but on average the answer to choosing apprentices is "Don't pick noobs."
 
No it doesn't.

Saying "I would like someone with a talent coefficient of 3.5 " is more or less equivalent to "I want a student who is consistently in at least the 80-90th percentile of their academy year, if not more." which ultimately boils down to "Give me the kids that do really well." at the end of the day. Screwing around with the particulars of the middle statement will give you weird things (What if everyone is a genius this year? What if only five kids can count to six without choking on their own drool?) but on average the answer to choose apprentices is "Don't pick noobs."
Um.

I'm not sure in what way having an objective way to measure someone's effectiveness-at-learning independently of cultural standards (IE clan nin being generally more talented, or whatever) WOULDN'T make it easier to find a competent-but-overlooked apprentice.
 
Um.

I'm not sure in what way having an objective way to measure someone's effectiveness-at-learning independently of cultural standards (IE clan nin being generally more talented, or whatever) WOULDN'T make it easier to find a competent-but-overlooked apprentice.

What do you think the inputs to talent coefficient look like? How do you imagine measuring it without measuring those inputs? Or is it a question of discovering the weights to different inputs? Like, we do a study of [some metric of ninja quality] based on factors like 'doing weird training exercises', run a regression, and find out how to evaluate apprentices?

Given the clans are pretty optimized for creating powerful ninja, I don't know that we'll find much more than a clever clansperson could teach us.
 
What do you think the inputs to talent coefficient look like? How do you imagine measuring it without measuring those inputs? Or is it a question of discovering the weights to different inputs? Like, we do a study of [some metric of ninja quality] based on factors like 'doing weird training exercises', run a regression, and find out how to evaluate apprentices?

Given the clans are pretty optimized for creating powerful ninja, I don't know that we'll find much more than a clever clansperson could teach us.
Teach the kid an elemental clone technique, observe how the cost of it increases over time.

(This makes teaching non-earth/water affinity kids a little harder, but.)
 
That could be something that prevents the excessive use of them but it's hard to say without knowing how much a clone costs in relation to, say, a Fireball jutsu or something. I'd still find it strange that the Hokage himself would not be able to afford one or two of them a day to be honest.
They're expensive enough that Kakashi can't even afford to use them for training the way Naruto can (I think this is said explicitly during the Wind training arc). Hashirama and Tobirama were notorious chakra monsters, but it's possible that Hiruzen is a finesse type like Kakashi, in which case as the village's primary defender (and priority target) he might feel vulnerable spending that much chakra at the start of every day.
 
They're expensive enough that Kakashi can't even afford to use them for training the way Naruto can (I think this is said explicitly during the Wind training arc). Hashirama and Tobirama were notorious chakra monsters, but it's possible that Hiruzen is a finesse type like Kakashi, in which case as the village's primary defender (and priority target) he might feel vulnerable spending that much chakra at the start of every day.
This is part of why I'm eager to get our chakra farm going, whether we buy chakra from non-active/captured ninja or use chakra beasts. If we can make Jiraiya free to use shadow clones he'll be able to get a lot more done, entirely independent of its training potential.
 
I'm not sure in what way having an objective way to measure someone's effectiveness-at-learning independently of cultural standards (IE clan nin being generally more talented, or whatever) WOULDN'T make it easier to find a competent-but-overlooked apprentice.
From Hazou's bingo book a few years from now:

Goruton: Measure Potential is a powerful Toukeijutsu usable by those with the Dankurugan blood limit (which allows one to accurately assess one's own ability in any given area). Over the course of a few hours, it provides an accurate assessment of the target's general potential as a ninja, as well as likely best areas of specialisation.​
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure in what way having an objective way to measure someone's effectiveness-at-learning independently of cultural standards (IE clan nin being generally more talented, or whatever) WOULDN'T make it easier to find a competent-but-overlooked apprentice.
This can be done without having to spend spoons on a way to figure out the Magic Numbers in character.

E: And by that I mean we don't need to wait for the Chakra Grant thingy to do it.


Sith Mastering 101: Leaf Academy Edition

1)Acquiring your candidate pool:

  • Throw out everything the academy thinks they know about teaching and assessing students.
    • They clearly don't know that much.
  • Spend a week or two observing some ten year olds in person. Pitch this as "Taijutsu Training Week." or something cute to get the kids hyped.
    • See how long it takes them to level up in Taijutsu on average.
      • Or Athletics. Or Alertness. Or Deceit. All are useful for a ninja.
    • Select the top 20% of kids or until you have about a dozen.
  • While doing this, pose them some other tests to assess general creativity and cleverness.
    • Take note of these students as well. Add them to the pool.
    • A clever battle plan is always worth its weight in XP/day.
  • Make special note of any students who are particularly hungry , resource deprived and in need of good fortune. Who are also above average in learning speed.
    • The orphans, the Nakano's who go home to a family of 9 starving civilians, the clanless schmucks with an axe to grind, what have you.
  • Now after you have done your own assessments, use any academy assessment data to inform you as a secondary opinion. Use instructor opinion as a tertiary opinion, but keep in mind these people are idiots. Disregard any poor scores in areas like "History" or "Math" because ultimately these can be taught and do not reflect the true quality of a prospective ninja.
    • Keep in mind potential institutional biases towards: females, clanless, minor clans, jinchuuriki, Inuzaka, individuals with Lightning country ancestry, etc.
  • Repeat with eleven year olds or nine year olds if you literally don't have anyone. Shouldn't have to do this.
2) Weed out the weaklings and fools

You should have about a dozen candidates at least. You should aim to narrow it down to ~6 actual apprentices.

  • Anyone not willing to commit actual time (after school to dusk at a minimum) is out.
  • Anyone not willing to persevere through a little adversity is out.
  • Anyone who doesn't want to use their head: out.
  • Anyone who has no discipline and isn't willing to follow orders: out,out,out!
The standard Navy Seal hell week modified to take place after school, interspersed with a battery of tests with semi-obvious loopholes and designed with clever exploits in mind, will accomplish this. To name a few examples: anything Kagome tried with Honoka, probably a thousand variants on the canon bell test, Mulan grabbing the arrow from that wooden pillar, and a couple dozen examples from other various pieces of fiction I don't feel like naming explicitly (Stuff written by Sanderson, Butcher, etc.).


3) Corrupt the younglings

  • Run kids through basic philosophical reconditioning.
    • Uplift Uplift, Will of Fire, Uplift Uplift yadda yadda
    • Spout some other cool sounding zen shit that sounds very insightful.
      • Pedagogical Note: Whenever someone does this, they are almost entirely talking out of their ass. It's considered bad practice to call them out on it though.
  • Run through basic tactics and strategy
    • A decent amount of problem solving techniques. "Think for five minutes before etc etc."
    • Outside the box thinking.
    • Break the box thinking.
4) Teach them how to cackle maniacally and shoot lightning from their fingertips

  • Start parceling out nuggets of Deep Shinobi Lore in interesting and not to be forgotten ways.
    • Rule 0: NotParanoidEnough.mp4
    • Rule 1: Explosives and Storage Seals solve all problems.
      • AKA Kagome's First Maxim.
    • Rule 2: Ninja cheat.
      • AKA Kagome's Second Maxim.
    • Rule 3: Become a sealmaster. It is the sensible thing to do.
    • Rule 4: Something something efficient utilization of resources => Victory
      • Introduce them to the rest of Hazou's List of Shinobi Specifications
      • (Authors Note: Have mental draft. To be written up.)
  • Improve their resource base if they are sorely lacking in resources.
    • Don't let Yusuke and his parents go hungry every other day, that's a poor learning environment.
  • Take out on some till-n-fills for more indoctrination mission experience pre-graduation.
5) Take over the galaxy

  • [REDACTED]


@Cariyaga obviously if we could objectively measure (Change in CR LVL)/(TIME) we can just have the academy instructor schmucks do that to measure everyone's talent rate, but experience lends me to believe that the team will be Jonin by the time we are able to get the funding and personnel for the Chakra Qunatification Project, see it and other experiments through to completion to the extent its accepted as scientific fact by the Leaf mednin/science specs, and reform the academy to the point where they implement this in a meaningful way.

(Project Grant + Project Completion + Peer Review + Implementation in a School System ? Ugh. If this takes three years in character from start to finish it'll be an absolute miracle, military dictatorship being accounted for.)

E: It's also good to keep in mind that the "Talent Coefficient" thing is just a thingy that models XP/day on average. It doesn't necessarily need to be consistent on a day to day basis or over a small time period like a week or so.
 
Last edited:
Besides, we don't have to be cruel about it. Physically grueling, sure, but psychologically, not so much.
 
Besides, we don't have to be cruel about it. Physically grueling, sure, but psychologically, not so much.

I think the two blend together at some point, but I was going for more "Extreme test of candidate's commitment,motivation and determination." than "Explicitly break the children down psychologically on a daily basis as done in bootcamp, Full Metal Jacket style."

In essence, we need to identify who is willing to go Pretty Damn Far.
 
I think the two blend together at some point, but I was going for more "Extreme test of candidate's commitment,motivation and determination." than "Explicitly break the children down psychologically on a daily basis as done in bootcamp, Full Metal Jacket style."

In essence, we need to identify who is willing to go Pretty Damn Far.

No, let's not. Let's really, really not.

Uplift is about saying that everybody matters. Everybody can contribute. So help me, Might Guy is a functional ninja.

When you start separating your students out into "wheat" and "chaff" based on who's willing to sacrifice the rest of their life to be the perfect ninja candidate, what effect do you expect that to have?
 
I just re-read the chapter where Akane broke up with Hazou because he keeps treating everyone around him as tools.

Still not seeing what she was on about.
 
Last edited:
No, let's not. Let's really, really not.

Uplift is about saying that everybody matters. Everybody can contribute. So help me, Might Guy is a functional ninja.

When you start separating your students out into "wheat" and "chaff" based on who's willing to sacrifice the rest of their life to be the perfect ninja candidate, what effect do you expect that to have?
Thats not really quite what I'm saying at all though?

(At the end of the day you're picking the best you can get your hands on, and likely throwing out many candidates that already have a massive support group like a clan or something in favor of those who do not, and throwing away a lot of candidates who don't show an ounce of promise or willingness to learn. These are not things that are optional in a student if we're going to spend hours a week on them that could be used more productively doing other things. Not when there is so much to be done.)

Also in general:

HPMOR said:
Look, I don't have enough time to turn everyone away from the Dark Side and I've got to ask where the Light can gain the most advantage the fastest -

We are not yet the stalwart guardians of the future that should be, but the hopeful idealist in the world that is. We don't yet have the luxury of playing fair while the world itself remains so abysmally unfair.
 
I just re-read the chapter where Akane broke up with Hazou because he keeps treating everyone around him as tools.

Still not seeing what she was on about.
Real talk: There are times when it's appropriate to treat people as tools, and times when it's not. The chuunin exams as a whole strike me as one of those times.

e: The real error Hazou (and we) made was not realizing that Akane didn't consider herself to still be part of Team Uplift.
 
Last edited:
I just re-read the chapter where Akane broke up with Hazou because he keeps treating everyone around him as tools.

Still not seeing what she was on about.
It makes me realize something:
Another realisation I should have made earlier. There is no place for humanity in war. Only means and ends. Had I made adequate preparations, we could have won. Had I coordinated our forces appropriately, we could have escaped with more than one survivor. Tsunade needed physical contact to kill. With his powerful physique, Kazan could have absorbed a blow, creating an opening for Akagi to use her barrier. Terumi could have exploited the blind spot to attack Jiraiya from an angle with his superior reach, and Jiraiya would be forced to use a direct counter rather than area-of-effect ninjutsu. Orochimaru would have killed Akagi by the time his teammates were free to act again, but Hoshigaki only needed three seconds to trigger his technique. Four dead, eleven escape.
No wonder Keiko hates Akane.
She emphasizes a way of life that's an anathema to Mori.

EDIT: Guys... guys (also girls)...
Are you thinking what I am thinking?
Romantic relationship with Akane failed.
But how about a rational alliance with Ami?
She would certainly appreciate Hazou's approach to people. :D
 
Last edited:
e: The real error Hazou (and we) made was not realizing that Akane didn't consider herself to still be part of Team Uplift.

Once we adopt her and her parents she is going to be so annoyed at not being informed about our 'allies' genociding other Xenos.

It makes me realize something:

No wonder Keiko hates Akane.
She emphasizes a way of life that's an anathema to Mori.

You're quoting the guy that married into the Mori as representative for how Mori think? Ryu kind of described them as tools himself.
 
Back
Top