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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Kiba said:
So, any idea on how to proceed?

I am thinking a Mari section on getting her out of the house accompanying one of the kids.
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Definitely a Mari section on getting her something to do. I liked TailesinSkye's ideas:

TaliesinSkye said:
Mari could probably be helpful with the orgy rumors, if we're seriously worried about those. (I'm not convinced we really should be, yet.)

But I think what she needs most is something to reaffirm that she's capable of being a good person who does net good in the world in some sort of tangible way. Doing till 'n fill missions seems to help Hazo that way, so...what if we took Mari along and got her to help? It's a small thing, but maybe it would help her feel like she isn't always a negative impact on everyone around her in a concrete way. And lots of small positive steps like that are how a person pieces themselves back together after falling apart.

Or if that doesn't appeal to Mari's particular needs for self-affirmation, maybe we can find something that would. Like...maybe she could find ways to help victims of sexual violence? Like by organizing a shelter or something. (The batman approach, while possible, would probably result in Other Problems.)
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I think a good light task would be helping out Kagome's student with taijutsu or something.

Other fun things: she could play board games with us, laugh at / help us with our social problems, observe our Exams training, help us choreograph a fight with Keiko.

We should also make sure her interactions with Hana are as not-terrible as possible.
 
We basically sent the Drill Sergeant to bring back a Soldier back to form, and guess what?
Kurosawa's are like that, front-line monster able to train their muscles to obey, what would people think she would do to Mari?

Poor Hazou, learning the hard way that yes, that's how his family rolls around.
 
Radvic said:
I'm on board with killing Hazou and resetting if he uses his agency to defect to Hana and/or Mist. Hana's my least favorite character, and I have little to no interest in fighting against a PC's agency a high level social manipulator who has brainwashed her child. Next time we can play a proper orphan with no social ties to speak of which we do not explicitly approve of.

Hmm.... as much as I dislike the "spend X time thinking about thing" portions of recent action plans, I'll say this:

For the next voting period, I will vote for any plan I'm aware of which includes a "think about X" where "X" is obviously focused towards getting Hazou to like, trust, and respect his mother less and properly view her as the enemy to our goals and opposition to our plans.
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I'm not sure how serious you are, but I strongly disagree with this view. Hazou's relation with his mother and his willingness to give up on much to be with her make him flawed and thus relatable in a way that his suck-at-OPSEC-lol persona never did, at least for me. I understand that this means Hazou (may) take(s) actions that can go against the hivemind's desires at times but I believe this also makes him a stronger character in his own right. The hivemind is responsible for some of the more bothersome parts of his personality (paranoia, ideas eclecticism to name a couple), I really don't mind the QMs making him more humane even if it goes against the flow of some of our decisions. We always make split-second decisions with the benefit of forethought and with long-term planning, it's up to the QMs to remind us Hazou's human.

Likewise, I agree with @Briefvoice 's view on Kagome. He's hurt and tries to care in his own way but at some point we'll have to draw the line regarding murdering [insert anyone he meets]. It's high he stops threatening everyone he comes across because forgiveness won't always be forthcoming.
 
Waffle said:
I'm not sure how serious you are, but I strongly disagree with this view. Hazou's relation with his mother and his willingness to give up on much to be with her make him flawed and thus relatable in a way that his suck-at-OPSEC-lol persona never did, at least for me. I understand that this means Hazou (may) take(s) actions that can go against the hivemind's desires at times but I believe this also makes him a stronger character in his own right. The hivemind is responsible for some of the more bothersome parts of his personality (paranoia, ideas eclecticism to name a couple), I really don't mind the QMs making him more humane even if it goes against the flow of some of our decisions. We always make split-second decisions with the benefit of forethought and with long-term planning, it's up to the QMs to remind us Hazou's human.

Likewise, I agree with @Briefvoice 's view on Kagome. He's hurt and tries to care in his own way but at some point we'll have to draw the line regarding murdering [insert anyone he meets]. It's high he stops threatening everyone he comes across because forgiveness won't always be forthcoming.
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I mean, if people don't enjoy the direction that Hazou would take the quest, it seems reasonable to try to change either Hazou, or the character they're playing.

Regarding Kagome: Yes, but uh... after a snafu like that, we need to give him a bit.

That said, with anything not explicitly or implicitly stated in story to be Hazou's opinion on things, we have a lot of leeway to elaborate in plans on how Hazou feels about them.
 
Waffle said:
Likewise, I agree with @Briefvoice 's view on Kagome. He's hurt and tries to care in his own way but at some point we'll have to draw the line regarding murdering [insert anyone he meets]. It's high he stops threatening everyone he comes across because forgiveness won't always be forthcoming.
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While I'm not condoning Kagome's actions, from his perspective: a strange jonin from Mist who happens to be Hazou's mom (that he's met ... once?) enters his home and starts assaulting one of his precious people, who's much more vulnerable than normal. After Hazou explains what's going on, he says he's kill her IF she starts causing Mari actual harm, or doesn't get results and refuses to leave the clan compound after being asked. I don't actually think that is that unreasonable, and honesty shows both personal growth for Kagome, and how much he trusts us in the first place.

... which makes us not checking in with him first all the worse, even if Hana's immediate action and reaction were not predicted.
 
After a reread:

Ino sent us on a run around. Also Chunin-at-the-desk lets us know that Ino has been planting a pile of rumours to her benefit and not ours.

Joy.

:jackiechan:
 
MMKII said:
Ino sent us on a run around.
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I dunno, it read to me like something's actually up beyond surface-level appearances. Hazou seems to be reaching a similar conclusion, based on the tail end of the update. Not sure what she's set us onto, but I don't think it's nothing.
 
Wiadi said:
I dunno, it read to me like something's actually up beyond surface-level appearances. Hazou seems to be reaching a similar conclusion, based on the tail end of the update. Not sure what she's set us onto, but I don't think it's nothing.
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I read that as more "Hazou is confuzzled about their polyamory's public face." but I suppose that doesnt quite cover it. Hmm.
 
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Okay, I'm not ashamed to say I dived into wiki to help plan this out and I thought Hazo might consider on making a new type of list that might fall outside of OPSEC or was maybe a sub-category of it. Probably the later, now that I think on it.

Emotional Security Protocols

While OPSEC is paramount in your plans, you've come to the conclusion that even if successful and fruitful in material or social gains, can also leave behind emotional consequences that may be detrimental to not only yourself but the people closest to you. The following list will serve as a guideline to mitigate some of that risk.​

  • Identify and assess critical information on target/s.
    • Identify any relevant information the emotional profile of target/s (Likes, dislikes, fears, aspirations, strengths, weaknesses, etc)
    • Identify relevant emotional attachments (Ideas, objects, family, clan, friends, groups, village, etc)
      • Identify defense mechanisms of target/s (body language, verbal ticks, habits, routines, deflections, etc)
      • Include yourself in all of the above if relevant
  • Analysis of targets defense mechanisms and vulnerabilities
    • Analyze the vulnerabilities in target/s emotional profile and attachments
      • Assess if the above (profile and attachments) can turn into vulnerabilities against the target/s
      • Compare the above with defense mechanisms
      • Analyze the ability and timescale of the above vulnerabilities to be weaponized into threats
      • Include yourself in the above if relevant
  • Identify and analyze threats
    • Identify threats to target/s attachments and emotional profile
    • Identify the strengths of threats
      • Compare the above with defense mechanisms
        • Include yourself in all of the above if relevant
  • Risk Assesment
    • OPSEC failures leading to EMSEC failures and the inverse
    • Short, medium, long-term potential risk from threats
    • Always assess the possibility and scope of emotional collateral damage.
  • Applications of countermeasures
    • Uphold OPSEC
      • Respect agency
      • Reduce threats to vulnerabilities if possible
      • Use De-escalation tactics
      • Clear communications jutsu
      • Identifying, and adapting to body language/language
    • Reviewing conversations for improvements
    • Know when to disengage from plans you lack the tools for
    • Know when and how to lose
    • Actions speak louder than words
    • Help boost strengths to cover vulnerabilities
NOTE: Not proposing we go to Ino with this. Just gotta give her the summary if need be or an edited version. I think I got a teeny, tiny bit grim here. I think Kagome might like this though. Would show him we're DEAD serious about our apology.

Anywho, good night all. Feel free to rip and splice this as you will, folks.
 
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MMKII said:
After a reread:

Ino sent us on a run around. Also Chunin-at-the-desk lets us know that Ino has been planting a pile of rumours to her benefit and not ours.

Joy.

:jackiechan:
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Throughout the whole Chapter my Inner Kagome was screaming of a Yamanaka Conspiracy. It's probability nothing, just Ino holding a grudge.

That also makes me wonder, why did we decide to trust the advice of someone who most certainly did not like us at the moment.

We also have been been victim to various Social attacks. We mostly have ignored trying to get to their sources assuming it probably wouldn't get anything out of it.

Even though there haven't been any serious consequences that we know of. The events highlight that we do not have any defenses against agents that want to defame us.

Say someone with a Byakugan saw the whole Hana-Mari spectacle we're literally screwed.

e:
This is mostly me being overly paranoid.
Would it be advantageous for Ino-Shika-Cho to ensure that Goketsu have only have them as major allies?
Anyone think they would try to do so? As in make it seem as if they're the only reason behind Goketsu's success.for
 
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DAKKA! said:
Would it be advantageous for Ino-Shika-Cho to ensure that Goketsu have only have them as major allies?
Anyone think they would try to do so? As in make it seem as if they're the only reason behind Goketsu's success.for
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I doubt it. That seems like too risky of a play for Shikaku, given how tenuous Jiraiya's grip on the hat already is. Not much upside to being the only reason for the "success" of a clan that's failed.
 
...Now can we have a Hana-perspective interlude?

I feel that a... sense of perspective is required with respect to the mother who has been separated from her son for the past two years, thinking he was dead for much of them.
 
Okay, I'm pretty sure Mari is going to effectively self-destruct (if not physically, then mentally) in fairly short order if we don't do something concrete about her. Now.

I expect the following to be the highlight of Hana's intervention from Mari's perspective:
eaglejarl said:
We both know you aren't actually going to change—you aren't capable of it. But, you can be useful
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In practical terms, I think it'll take the form of an attitude similar to early Keiko's: she'll do things, but she'll see herself as having negative value for which she barely compensates by being useful, and she'll remain suicidal all the way through. It's not actually an improvement over her previous state: she was broken and non-functional, which at least made the problem blatant and the situation unstable; now she is broken and functional, and the issue will be so much harder to address and so much easier to dismiss.

Also, forcing her to "do good in a tangible way" would do the opposite of helping now, I think. It's basically what Hana ordered her to do. If we'll also want to make her do it, she'll see it as us agreeing with Hana on everything.

I'm not sure what else we can do, though. Involve the Yamanaka? They don't seem to really have therapy specialists, though I guess Neira wouldn't be useless. Tsunade? It's dubious whether she would prefer to help Mari or to let her sink; if former I'm not sure her intervention wouldn't resemble Hana's. The Nara? An option, I suppose. Anko? Also an option. On more extreme ends, we could try to seek help in Hidden Mountain (Takahashi?) or with the Pangolins, though I'm again not sure their intervention wouldn't make it worse.

Maybe we could undermine Hana's position in Mari's eyes, by e. g. engineering a situation in which Mari has to save e. g. Keiko from Hana's hostility? (Or we could try to convince Mari she is actually utterly incompetent and absolutely pathetic at social manipulations, which would mean there's no way she could have manipulated us so well. That's probably a horrible idea.)

Anyone has ideas better than the following: reach out to Anko & Neira, have Keiko Jiraiya seek Shikaku's input?
Briefvoice said:
Is it just background noise where you don't even notice at this point? Does it really seem like that's the best solution?
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What alternatives do you propose? Kagome is talking about a situation in which Hana is trying to murder Mari and declines to stop after being told to. Should he instead try to restrain her? She is a jounin taijutsu specialist, in what by that point would be open combat, and he is an explosives-focused ~chuunin. If he doesn't immediately go lethal, Mari is dead and he is likely dead too.

It's just a consequence of rocket-tag combat and their respective specializations.
 
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A theory:

Hana is projecting.

"You could always come back to Mist with me, cricket."

He nodded. "I know. And I would. I love you, Momma, and if it means giving up everything I have here then I will.
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Here, she feels out Hazou's response and forced a precommittment. This in spite of Jiraiya having previously made an offer to have her join the clan.

I do hope that comes out at some point. It'd certainly recontextualize that discussion.
 
Kiba said:
@eaglejarl did we make any progress on chakra detectors?
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Not yet, sorry. There was no time given everything else you were doing.

MMKII said:
I read that as more "Hazou is confuzzled about their polygamy's public face." but I suppose that doesnt quite cover it. Hmm.
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So far as Hazō is aware, none of those three people are married.

DAKKA! said:
Say someone with a Byakugan saw the whole Hana-Mari spectacle we're literally screwed.
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Don't worry -- the Hyūga would probably be very much opposed to sex with a Gōketsu.
 
Are till n fills sufficient to support ninja families that recently had a kid and hence aren't inclined towards long missions?

edit: Or for ninja that have been crippled in action, but not to the extent to stop them from doing missions that do not need combat ability.
Essentially for genin / chunin ninja that are nearing retirement.
 
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MadScientist said:
Uplifter acquired.


I know everyone's in a bad mood with Hana right now, but if nothing else I want to draw attention to the fact that she decided to help Hazou the very moment he declared his terminal values on the matter.
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Good news: She also made Mari into a minion for us!

Bad news: She also made Mari into a minion for us!

AHHHHHHH
 
MadScientist said:
I guess I'm on the thread again then.

So. I skipped over the part of the chapter relating to Anko because I don't want to need another break. Did anything important happen there?
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Family feud and the resulting fallout, mostly.

E: Misintrepreted.

Not really. Hazō is just weirded out by Anko dating two people at the same time.
 
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MadScientist said:
I guess I'm on the thread again then.

So. I skipped over the part of the chapter relating to Anko because I don't want to need another break. Did anything important happen there?
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We're speculating on whether theres Something Afoot for us to look into or whether Ino has just sent us on a wild goose chase.

Thats about it. Not terribly terribly important.

Hazou does some good Ninja-ing though! That Deceit score doing good work once again.
 
Noumero said:
Kagome is talking about a situation in which Hana is trying to murder Mari and declines to stop after being told to. Should he instead try to restrain her? She is a jounin taijutsu specialist, in what by that point would be open combat, and he is an explosives-focused ~chuunin. If he doesn't immediately go lethal, Mari is dead and he is likely dead too.
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The words he uses are "endangers Mari" and "isn't helping...and keeps harassing Mari." That's a broad spectrum, from killing/torture down to verbal and physical abuse. Notice that he does not, for example, trust Hazou to convince his mom to stop if she's just being mean. (Admittedly, he might have if Hazou hadn't just betrayed his trust.)

But also, he's willing to kill the Mist envoy who is also Hazou's mom even in the case where she's just being mean to Mari. The restraint he's showing is significant given his general perspective, but he's still willing to be hella disproportionate.

—
To be clear, I think Hazou is at fault for not consulting K here, and the objection "K's only solution is killing people" doesn't make sense to me. As we saw, he was in fact able to not default to killing Hana immediately once he calmed down and saw this was something the other three had decided on.

Plus: if his feelings are important to us, we should take them into account. I don't think this was the only thing that could fix Mari, and we could have tried more things first. Even if we just value K instrumentally, bringing Hana over without telling him is clearly a risky move.

In character, I think the kids most likely didn't talk to Kagome for dumb reasons; it felt aversive to argue with him about this, and they didn't predict Hana would move this fast. (It could have easily taken several conversations to bring her around, if at all.) they may have expected it wouldn't work, and not wanted to have an unfun conversation for the sake of a long-shot plan.
 
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