...honestly, seeing how it turned out, I'm thinking about 2-1 odds that Ino put us on this trail as a subtler vengeance.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
...honestly, seeing how it turned out, I'm thinking about 2-1 odds that Ino put us on this trail as a subtler vengeance.
- Location
- Snakesden
In itself, going through the motions of daily life is IME mildly/moderately helpful for pulling out of periods like that. The way Hana acted...obviously wasn't great, but at least she implied Mari can prove that she's willing to change. Like, compared to their last conversation it's gotta be a step up.
I agree we should apologize for Hana's harshness, because Mari shouldn't believe it's okay for her to be treated that way.
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As a next step, we should find something concrete, self-contained, and tractable for Mari to do.
Maybe not dealing with the orgy rumor? I'm concerned that a) that'll get her worrying about all the other Hokage-wife stuff she needs to do, and b) her initial reflex will be to mess with us, but then she'll feel guilty about that, and then she won't know how to deal with it.
Maybe sparring / training, so she doesn't have to leave the house? Or mapping out the house's weird basements and stuff, if there's still more of that to do.
edit: Oh! We should totally get her to give a lesson to Kagome's cute li'l student. Talk to him about it beforehand, but I bet he can find a useful topic that she'd know better.
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Also, if she has any trustworthy friends in Leaf (Anko??) we could ask her if we can invite them over.
I agree we should apologize for Hana's harshness, because Mari shouldn't believe it's okay for her to be treated that way.
--
As a next step, we should find something concrete, self-contained, and tractable for Mari to do.
Maybe not dealing with the orgy rumor? I'm concerned that a) that'll get her worrying about all the other Hokage-wife stuff she needs to do, and b) her initial reflex will be to mess with us, but then she'll feel guilty about that, and then she won't know how to deal with it.
Maybe sparring / training, so she doesn't have to leave the house? Or mapping out the house's weird basements and stuff, if there's still more of that to do.
edit: Oh! We should totally get her to give a lesson to Kagome's cute li'l student. Talk to him about it beforehand, but I bet he can find a useful topic that she'd know better.
--
Also, if she has any trustworthy friends in Leaf (Anko??) we could ask her if we can invite them over.
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- Location
- UK
Both. Apologise to Mari for what happened, and when she rejects it insist on the point. Apologise to Kagome for dismissing his input, because once again he was right.
- Location
- Snakesden
Or this was a response to "you shouldn't care about my relationship with Akane", of the form "that's not how polycules work, dumbass!"
[not endorsed. She might have reasons for wanting us to be aware of poly stuff, though. Out of the people we've met she definitely has one of the more sophisticated perspectives on relationships.]
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
This has been my impression as well.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
She's a better-adjusted Kagome that we haven't had the chance to woobify yet
e: And that's only attached to Hazou.
Fair enough.
Although I wonder if he would've been pissed (just not as much) had Hanna used a much lighter touch.
And some of what he said came off as pent-up stuff as well, not just this incident. IIRC, the night Hazo briefed Minami seems to echo this blow-up.
- Location
- Yes.
Honestly her actions are completely in character for a person who's had the literal only person worth living for in her life *die*, and who has the chance to vent her corresponding emotional trauma at the person directly responsible.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Before we go any further on addressing the harm we caused to Kagome, I think we need to address the discrepancy between the hivemind's actions and Hazou's actions, so that we don't go in with the wrong sense of what happened.
On our end (the hivemind's), we neglected to mention Kagome in the part of the plan where we talked about getting Hana's help. That was negligence on our part, and a legitimate grievance because we really should have realized that bringing Hana to help fix Mari would severely worry Kagome and that we'd want to talk it over with him first. However, the scale of the negligence was relatively minor, due to our faraway perspective and abstracted view of daily life in the Goketsu household and the relatively narrow amount of time and effort that part of the plan took to make, so for all that it caused damage it was in the end a minor mistake.
On Hazou's end (and Noburi and Keiko), Kagome has been just as invested in helping Mari as the rest of them, and the four of them have been united in taking care of her for the last few days at the very least. Then Hazou comes up with an idea and specifically gathers Noburi and Keiko, rather than the entire 'taking care of Mari' alliance, to discuss it. All three of them sign off on the idea without thinking to even inform Kagome of the plan, despite the fact that if they thought about it they would realize how important it is to clear this with Kagome beforehand.
What happened on Hazou's end is still just negligence, but it's of a significantly larger scale since Kagome's presence was a lot more significant in their lives and the length of time and number of actions he was neglected for was much larger than our case. The level of negligence is large enough that it starts to look really bad about Hazou, Noburi, and Keiko, because as opposed to the Hivemind's case where forgetting about Kagome is understandable (if still leading to negative consequences) because he was out of mind at the moment we were crafting that part of the plan Hazou, Noburi, and Keiko had every reason to be thinking about him as they planned this out, and yet... didn't.
If things were different I might start pushing that Hazou and co. wouldn't forget about Kagome like that and that leaving him out of the loop was unsimulationist, but as-is it does still mesh with the characters as shown... if you assume that the genin routinely dismiss and ignore Kagome enough that even when they're all working together to help Mari he doesn't even cross their minds, which is reasonable, but uncomfortable. Still, it's the hand we've got.
So when we apologize to Kagome, we need to keep this in mind. It was a minor, careless error on the Hivemind's part, but gross negligence built on an unhealthy dynamic of simply ignoring a family member on Hazou's part. I would not like to see Hazou defend himself as us the Hivemind would, presenting it as just a careless mistake, because on Hazou's end it's more than a careless mistake and Kagome would see that and just see Hazou as defending his dismissive hurtful behaviour.
On our end (the hivemind's), we neglected to mention Kagome in the part of the plan where we talked about getting Hana's help. That was negligence on our part, and a legitimate grievance because we really should have realized that bringing Hana to help fix Mari would severely worry Kagome and that we'd want to talk it over with him first. However, the scale of the negligence was relatively minor, due to our faraway perspective and abstracted view of daily life in the Goketsu household and the relatively narrow amount of time and effort that part of the plan took to make, so for all that it caused damage it was in the end a minor mistake.
On Hazou's end (and Noburi and Keiko), Kagome has been just as invested in helping Mari as the rest of them, and the four of them have been united in taking care of her for the last few days at the very least. Then Hazou comes up with an idea and specifically gathers Noburi and Keiko, rather than the entire 'taking care of Mari' alliance, to discuss it. All three of them sign off on the idea without thinking to even inform Kagome of the plan, despite the fact that if they thought about it they would realize how important it is to clear this with Kagome beforehand.
What happened on Hazou's end is still just negligence, but it's of a significantly larger scale since Kagome's presence was a lot more significant in their lives and the length of time and number of actions he was neglected for was much larger than our case. The level of negligence is large enough that it starts to look really bad about Hazou, Noburi, and Keiko, because as opposed to the Hivemind's case where forgetting about Kagome is understandable (if still leading to negative consequences) because he was out of mind at the moment we were crafting that part of the plan Hazou, Noburi, and Keiko had every reason to be thinking about him as they planned this out, and yet... didn't.
If things were different I might start pushing that Hazou and co. wouldn't forget about Kagome like that and that leaving him out of the loop was unsimulationist, but as-is it does still mesh with the characters as shown... if you assume that the genin routinely dismiss and ignore Kagome enough that even when they're all working together to help Mari he doesn't even cross their minds, which is reasonable, but uncomfortable. Still, it's the hand we've got.
So when we apologize to Kagome, we need to keep this in mind. It was a minor, careless error on the Hivemind's part, but gross negligence built on an unhealthy dynamic of simply ignoring a family member on Hazou's part. I would not like to see Hazou defend himself as us the Hivemind would, presenting it as just a careless mistake, because on Hazou's end it's more than a careless mistake and Kagome would see that and just see Hazou as defending his dismissive hurtful behaviour.
- Location
- how about no
Honestly I was surprised she didn't have a line like:
"I may have to wait to bitch slap Shikigami in hell, but until then I can make your life a shadow of the hell you put me through!"
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
She didn't because Hazou specifically asked her to help Mari. That would be appropriate for the prior conversation.
- Location
- Snakesden
Also, before I forget: well done @Cariyaga on the "inspiring speech to Hana" idea. I wasn't sure it would fly, but overall it worked pretty well. On a related note, thank you @eaglejarl for another great chapter, and I appreciate the level of thought Hazou and co put into the Hana conversation (excluding Kagome aside).
I continue to be unsure what exactly Ino's deal is here, but I loved the sneaking-around bits, especially for all the glimpses of sexual mores in a medieval society with mentally unstable supersoldiers.
I continue to be unsure what exactly Ino's deal is here, but I loved the sneaking-around bits, especially for all the glimpses of sexual mores in a medieval society with mentally unstable supersoldiers.
- Location
- USA
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- He/Him
I'm sorry for that. I was a little concerned as I wrote it -- not just for you, but for readers in general.
Yes, we will let you know. In the meantime, I believe that Thursday's update is not planned to include anything in this plot line. We'll let you know if it's safe to read.
- Location
- UK
My plan didn't win but it did the same thing, and I'm willing to own this error. I don't think this excuse holds for me.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I am extremely uncomfortable about any mitigation tactics wrt Kagome on this. This was our fuckup.
To cap it all off, we pinned him to a wall and wrestled him into submission as he was violently -- desperately -- trying to stop what was (from his perspective) Mari's imminent demise.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
It still does, because for as much as you spent time and effort planning this segment out you aren't in Hazou's shoes. Hazou lives every day with Kagome and was working directly with Kagome in the Mari rotation, and yet Kagome didn't even cross his mind. Not when he initially had the idea, not when he talked it over with Noburi and Keiko for half an hour, and not when he actually went to do it.
I think you already grasp the factors as they pertain to you, just how much we messed up and all that, I just want to convey that the mistake Hazou made is so much greater than what any of us did, given our respective positions and perspectives.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I mean, yes... but that's why I specified it was separate from the apology.I am extremely uncomfortable about any mitigation tactics wrt Kagome on this. This was our fuckup.
To cap it all off, we pinned him to a wall and wrestled him into submission as he was violently -- desperately -- trying to stop what was (from his perspective) Mari's imminent demise.
In my experience, when apologizing, it's important to first, you know, apologize. But afterwards, once the apology is done -- and it's clear you're not making excuses for yourself -- to clear up any misunderstandings as to why you did what you did, mitigating factors (and yes, this is why making it clear that you're not making excuses for yourself is important), etc, and finally to work to avoid repeating the egress.
- Location
- UK
I've made this argument before on other issues. I really don't think it applies well to me here.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
All of this just goes to show that even though Hazou is getting better at OPSEC, we still really need that Empathy XP drip and the empathy-related IC actions. Once we can spare the XP after the tourney we need to get on that ASAP.