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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MMKII said:
HELLO SHIKAKU NARA!

HERE IS A THING I WOULD LIKE TO DO:
Boost the range on these bad boys, and we will have mitigated our anti-skywalker problem. Awesome!


@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien (but mostly Vel, as the authority of all things Keiko)

We have done full contact spars with Keiko in the past, yes? She does not freak out when we hit her in a spar, right? This is not a thing Hazou would expect to happen, if they were matched up in the tournament?
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Nice! It'd help if we could get them to emit light instead. That, or a mechanical way to translate vibration into long-distance info.

Re Keiko, I think she's okay with fights in general, but maybe a spar is worse because there are limits on what she can do to defend herself?
 
MMKII said:
Wire!
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So, suspended five seal barrier sensors creating a network of vibrating wires to warn of incoming areal chakra usages? Seams reasonable depending on the range, though I'd imagine the number of false alarms due to birds using chakra will be high. In addition to the high sealing costs of maintaining such a network. I.e., if we want to have defenses 6 km out, that's
2 * pi * (6 km) ^2 = 2.3 * 10^8 m^2

If we assume we can boost the range of each individual seal to ~ 100 meters (which, is probably a significant research project on its own), that means each can effectively cover ~3*10^4 meters (ignoring loss due to circles not nesting well), and thus a low bound of ~6500 instalations.

Each of these instalations would require 6 seals -- 5 for Five Barrier Formation, and one for the vibrator, and would last for one month. This means each Month, Leaf would need to output 6 * 6500 = 39000 seals to maintain a seal defense network. This represents 6,500 hours of sealing work per month, or full employment of ~400 seal masters every month.
 
Radvic said:
So, suspended five seal barrier sensors creating a network of vibrating wires to warn of incoming areal chakra usages? Seams reasonable depending on the range, though I'd imagine the number of false alarms due to birds using chakra will be high. In addition to the high sealing costs of maintaining such a network. I.e., if we want to have defenses 6 km out, that's
2 * pi * (6 km) ^2 = 2.3 * 10^8 m^2

If we assume we can boost the range of each individual seal to ~ 100 meters (which, is probably a significant research project on its own), that means each can effectively cover ~3*10^4 meters (ignoring loss due to circles not nesting well), and thus a low bound of ~6500 instalations.

Each of these instalations would require 6 seals -- 5 for Five Barrier Formation, and one for the vibrator, and would last for one month. This means each Month, Leaf would need to output 6 * 6500 = 39000 seals to maintain a seal defense network. This represents 6,500 hours of sealing work per month, or full employment of ~400 seal masters every month.
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I was thinking we make some sort of hemispherical boundary as a warning net, but it comes out to roughly what you're talking about anyway (funny that, eh?). Although, I suppose we could tile a cylindrical boundary upwards a bit instead. Might save us a bit depending on how high we want to go relative to how far out we would like to be.

Though, your numbers suggest this is not optimal regardless, order of magnitude wise.

We would probably have to create something further down this tech tree that synergizes well with its comrades to cover a much larger area. This would mean less 5SB stations in practice.

Still, a step in the right direction.
 
Also, we should research tripwire seals. We need ways to activate seals yesterday and I'm kinda sad we researched casino seals instead. I suppose it's good not to show off at the tournmanet though -- gives us some tricks up our sleeves for real combat (once we finally research tripwire seals).


Alternatively, we could probably just get Kagome to make us a bunch of tripwire seals and then design some cool gear for Hazou to use. Likely will requre some XP expenditure (a stunt perhaps?) but should let us activate almost any seal we want via tripwires.
 
Radvic said:
Also, we should research tripwire seals. We need ways to activate seals yesterday and I'm kinda sad we researched casino seals instead. I suppose it's good not to show off at the tournmanet though -- gives us some tricks up our sleeves for real combat (once we finally research tripwire seals).


Alternatively, we could probably just get Kagome to make us a bunch of tripwire seals and then design some cool gear for Hazou to use. Likely will requre some XP expenditure (a stunt perhaps?) but should let us activate almost any seal we want via tripwires.
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By "tripwire seal" what do you mean? LBF? The theoretical ARS -seal shown in Chosen for the Grave?
 
Say, has anyone ever used Genjutsu for theraputic reasons in the canon or MfD? My comments earlier about the potential positive uses of memory muting jutsu got me thinking about other approaches to the same ends. Consentual genjutsu seems like it has potential for treating trauma and phobias and maybe some other mental ailments. I'm wondering if the idea for using it like that is already out there or if it's unexplored territory in MfD.

Edit: Also, could someone in principle genjutsu themselves if they wanted, creating a sort of virtual reality to do things with?
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Say, has anyone ever used Genjutsu for theraputic reasons in the canon or MfD? My comments earlier about the potential positive uses of memory muting jutsu got me thinking about other approaches to the same ends. Consentual genjutsu seems like it has potential for treating trauma and phobias and maybe some other mental ailments. I'm wondering if the idea for using it like that is already out there or if it's unexplored territory in MfD.

Edit: Also, could someone in principle genjutsu themselves if they wanted, creating a sort of virtual reality to do things with?
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Mari has. :p
 
MMKII said:
Can anyone remind me if the Chakra Dragonfly Dust was particularly lethal or impairing beyond the short term?
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Yes. It was:
eaglejarl said:
You've gathered a little more of the paralytic stuff; your product is the exact opposite of pure—most of what you have is actually the remains of the bags that were containing the dragonfly carcasses when you sealed them in the macerator—but it's effective. Because of the lack of purity it's wildly unpredictable. The same amount killed one rat almost instantly, left a second staggering around but still capable of biting, and had very little effect on the third. You only had a couple of hours to do experiments and after the results of the animal experiments you didn't dare try it on any humans. If you gave the entire amount you have left (about 10 grams or one-third of an ounce) to a grown human, and if they inhaled all of it, you are reasonably confident that it would probably kill them under normal circumstances, assuming nothing unusual happened.
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MMKII said:
We have done full contact spars with Keiko in the past, yes? She does not freak out when we hit her in a spar, right? This is not a thing Hazou would expect to happen, if they were matched up in the tournament?
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Velorien said:
"Hazō, how can you stand to surrender control of your body to others with such extraordinary frequency? How does physical contact not engender in you a reflexive instinct to escape or to defend yourself? <...> [F]or as long as I can remember, I have had a clear sense of personal boundaries, and I do not understand how other people do not."

"What about taijutsu?" Hazō asked curiously. "We've done full-contact sparring plenty of times."

"The purpose of taijutsu is to establish control over the engagement. To master taijutsu is to permit physical contact precisely and exclusively in the manner of one's own choosing, and terminate it as quickly as is practical. Even then, I chose to specialise in ranged combat as soon as circumstances permitted. <...>"
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I'm wondering if the safety of a genjutsu might actually be a really good way for Keiko to do aversion therapy for her touch thing, if she were to decide she wanted to conquer it. It'd be a way to become accustomed to touch without it being 'real', which might offer the sense of safety that makes becoming accustomed to it possible.
 
Kiba said:
We need a better name for the modded casino seal. Chakra emission detector?
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We can give it a better name when we submit it to Konoha.
TaliesinSkye said:
I'm wondering if the safety of a genjutsu might actually be a really good way for Keiko to do aversion therapy for her touch thing, if she were to decide she wanted to conquer it. It'd be a way to become accustomed to touch without it being 'real', which might offer the sense of safety that makes becoming accustomed to it possible.
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It's also a great way to become accustomed to genjutsu as a whole. We thought about doing that for training in general before.
 
Cariyaga said:
It's also a great way to become accustomed to genjutsu as a whole. We thought about doing that for training in general before.
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Used right, I could see genjutsu being the ninja equivalent of a holodeck, useful for all sorts of training, research, and leisure activities. Especially if someone can genjutsu themselves.
 
Kiba said:
Unfortunately this was vetoed. Ninja are trained to break out of them ASAP.
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When attacked, that's absolutely the right thing to do. But we're talking about something that's consentual. They can break out at any time, but they choose not to because the illusion is useful for a purpose.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
If Mari opposed it before, she's not the only genjutsu user around now. I bet if you found a medic-nin who also had some genjutsu skills they'd be interested in the concept of theraputic uses to fix mental issues they can't fix with medical jutsu.
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The whole problem with this is that we're deliberately weakenining our protection against genjustu in process of using genjustu.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
When attacked, that's absolutely the right thing to do. But we're talking about something that's consentual. They can break out at any time, but they choose not to because the illusion is useful for a purpose.
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The reason behind being trained to attempt to dispel genjutsu as soon as one detects it is to make it an instinct that overrides everything else.

Say a there's a genjutsu that makes you feel that all is right in the world. It probably has therapeutic uses, but becoming accustomed to being under it will weaken the overriding instinct to dispel it when a hostile agent uses it on you.

Edit: One can argue that one can relax this for certain harmless (as in hard to weaponise) genjutsu. But for genjutsu that can be easily deadly if used my someone malicious it's too risky.
 
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DAKKA! said:
The reason behind being trained to attempt to dispel genjutsu as soon as one detects it is to make it an instinct that overrides everything else.

Say a there's a genjutsu that makes you feel that all is right in the world. It probably has therapeutic uses, but becoming accustomed to being under it will weaken the overriding instinct to dispel it when a hostile agent uses it on you.

Edit: One can argue that one can relax this for certain harmless (as in hard to weaponise) genjutsu. But for genjutsu that can be easily deadly if used my someone malicious it's too risky.
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Is the concern that a hostile genjutsu could somehow make someone feel like it was a genjutsu they consented to for training? I'm not sure if genjutsu can control someone's thoughts that way, I thought they were limited to creating illusory sensations like sights, sound, pain, and so on but not thoughts. Perhaps I'm wrong?

If someone could inflict genjutsu on themselves then hopefully that would evade the problem. A person could feel safe if they were in complete control of the illusion.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Is the concern that a hostile genjutsu could somehow make someone feel like it was a genjutsu they consented to for training? I'm not sure if genjutsu can control someone's thoughts that way, I thought they were limited to creating illusory sensations like sights, sound, pain, and so on but not thoughts. Perhaps I'm wrong?
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Mari used a "you feel good" / "you are relaxed" genjutsu to calm down Kagome a few times in the past, for example when we met up with Jiraiya post Hot Springs / pre Arikada. Can't be bothered to dig up the exact quote because I'm not faflec.
 
Solonarv said:
Mari used a "you feel good" / "you are relaxed" genjutsu to calm down Kagome a few times in the past, for example when we met up with Jiraiya post Hot Springs / pre Arikada. Can't be bothered to dig up the exact quote because I'm not faflec.
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eaglejarl said:
Warm hands on his chin turned his head, forcing him to look into sea-green eyes that were full of soft smiles and happiness where everything was calm and peaceful and there were no threats because the world was kind and good and all the stinking evil stinking ninja stinkers were sprayed over the walls except for him and his friends who were living in a nice quiet treehouse with plenty of spicy tea and chocolate which they ate while talking in friendly ways and everyone had forgiven Keiko who was happy and self-confident like Akane who had taught them all to be as good as she was while they did seal research that always worked on the first try and....

Those beautiful eyes blinked and he floated back down into his body, still seated at the table in the inn. For the first time since he could remember he wasn't afraid. Intellectually he still recognized the danger they were in, but the knowledge was at a distance.

"I'm sorry, my friend," Mari said, cupping her hand gently on his face. "It's only temporary. It'll wear off in a few minutes."

Kagome smiled. "It's all right," he said, voice just a little dreamy. "It's nice. And it was a good idea. I was going to mess things up, wasn't I?"

She nodded, an impish grin on her face. "Little bit, yeah."

"Keiko, what just happened?" Pandā asked in a voice that was trying to be quiet and failing in the sudden silence.

"Kagome was very afraid," Keiko whispered back, blushing as everyone looked at her. "Sensei calmed him down with a genjutsu."
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*grumble grumble*
 
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