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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MMKII said:
Where is the likehuginformativeinsightfulfunny button
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It's called meow; subscriber only unfortunately.



Could we appeal to their pragmatism? Even leaving aside our moral failings, there are other reasons why genocide is bad, and one of them is that it hurts you too. Keiko is an experienced plan optimizer, can be scary as fuck, and has the Mori voice. We could almost give the Pangolins a plan that gives a moral outcome and improved their strategic circumstance (even if it's not the best outcome for them, we can just not tell them about the less moral plans we come up with). Honestly with more info thread + Keiko could probably do it, but getting Jiraiya (and maybe nara?) to weigh in would definitely help.

Especially if it is a paradox game, I know lots of us are *very* experienced at those, we'll blow the npc nations out of the water:V.
 
QTesseract said:
It's called meow; subscriber only unfortunately.



Could we appeal to their pragmatism? Even leaving aside our moral failings, there are other reasons why genocide is bad, and one of them is that it hurts you too. Keiko is an experienced plan optimizer, can be scary as fuck, and has the Mori voice. We could almost give the Pangolins a plan that gives a moral outcome and improved their strategic circumstance (even if it's not the best outcome for them, we can just not tell them about the less moral plans we come up with). Honestly with more info thread + Keiko could probably do it, but getting Jiraiya (and maybe nara?) to weigh in would definitely help.

Especially if it is a paradox game, I know lots of us are *very* experienced at those, we'll blow the npc nations out of the water:V.
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...

quietly shoves the current game of EU4 he's playing where he's taking over the world one non-cobelligerant at a time aside
 
QTesseract said:
Could we appeal to their pragmatism? Even leaving aside our moral failings, there are other reasons why genocide is bad, and one of them is that it hurts you too. Keiko is an experienced plan optimizer, can be scary as fuck, and has the Mori voice. We could almost give the Pangolins a plan that gives a moral outcome and improved their strategic circumstance (even if it's not the best outcome for them, we can just not tell them about the less moral plans we come up with). Honestly with more info thread + Keiko could probably do it, but getting Jiraiya (and maybe nara?) to weigh in would definitely help.

Especially if it is a paradox game, I know lots of us are *very* experienced at those, we'll blow the npc nations out of the water:V.
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Now I want an omake where Keiko lectures the pangolins about the benefits of the Persian Empire's comparatively amicable treatment of surrendered territory. Bonus points if Kei is just pulling (historically accurate) BS out of thin air and the pangolins are incredulous─(how many Immortals was that?)─but still mostly buying it.
 
Veedrac said:
Now I want an omake where Keiko lectures the pangolins about the benefits of the Persian Empire's comparatively amicable treatment of surrendered territory. Bonus points if Kei is just pulling (historically accurate) BS out of thin air and the pangolins are incredulous─(how many Immortals was that?)─but still mostly buying it.
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Let's just hope it's not CK2, because I do not want us explaining wincest to Pangolins.
 
QTesseract said:
It's called meow; subscriber only unfortunately.



Could we appeal to their pragmatism? Even leaving aside our moral failings, there are other reasons why genocide is bad, and one of them is that it hurts you too. Keiko is an experienced plan optimizer, can be scary as fuck, and has the Mori voice. We could almost give the Pangolins a plan that gives a moral outcome and improved their strategic circumstance (even if it's not the best outcome for them, we can just not tell them about the less moral plans we come up with). Honestly with more info thread + Keiko could probably do it, but getting Jiraiya (and maybe nara?) to weigh in would definitely help.

Especially if it is a paradox game, I know lots of us are *very* experienced at those, we'll blow the npc nations out of the water:V.
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Remember that Keiko can't tap into the Frozen Skein on the Seventh Path or else Pantsaa will get very very angry with her.
 
Pangolins lying info reports are just using Intrigue to generate casus belli's.

Godfucking damnit :facepalm:
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
QTesseract mentioned using the Mori voice, and I'm not 100% clear on whether that contacts the Frozen Skein or not I don't want to take chances.
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I mentioned the Mori voice in context with "coming up with a plan they would be forced to accept." Even without using it in front of them, my understanding is that Keiko could use the frozen skein to come up with a plan ahead of time. My apologies for being unclear.
 
MMKII said:
Point:
In the "This is modeled by a grand strategy game " universe,all of this is super obvious behavior.

We couldve probably figured that out much sooner in hindsight...
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We did. Back when Pandaa talked about the Condor blocking off the passage to the Grand Library.

I specifically spoke about how very convenient it was to the Pangolin that only one person returned to tell them of the "grand betrayal"
 
What if Keiko asks her summons about the condors the next time they are on the Human Path for unrelated reasons? Specifically Panjandrum who seems like the one we could bribe with food into actually replying since the other Pangolins would probably be too professional to answer and tell us how it is none of their business to think about the why, they just follow orders like good little soldiers.

Pandaa would work as well but he is too young to know anything else but the propaganda.
 
Tua said:
What if Keiko asks her summons about the condors the next time they are on the Human Path for unrelated reasons? Specifically Panjandrum who seems like the one we could bribe with food into actually replying since the other Pangolins would probably be too professional to answer and tell us how it is none of their business to think about the why, they just follow orders like good little soldiers.

Pandaa would work as well but he is too young to know anything else but the propaganda.
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The leader of the Rollers seems like she might have some potential to buck authority and question the party line, too.
 
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It's an open question whether Pantsā is in on the manipulation, or simply doesn't look into the evidence brought before him by a sufficiently deceptive/influential member of his high council.

He's probably in on it, but it might be easier to demonstrate/be convincing enough why he shouldn't be, so he can backtrack and shove all of the blame on a sufficiently odiable patsy.
 
Adept_Woodwright said:
It's an open question whether Pantsā is in on the manipulation, or simply doesn't look into the evidence brought before him by a sufficiently deceptive/influential member of his high council.

He's probably in on it, but it might be easier to demonstrate/be convincing enough why he shouldn't be, so he can backtrack and shove all of the blame on a sufficiently odiable patsy.
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Yeah. It feels like Pangolin High Command is the main problem here. Pantsā obviously isn't a good person or anything, for even letting this shit go on under his name, but he might not push back too much against us trying to make things better for the Condors.
 
18scsc said:
Yeah. It feels like Pangolin High Command is the main problem here. Pantsā obviously isn't a good person or anything, for even letting this shit go on under his name, but he might not push back too much against us trying to make things better for the Condors.
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I'd certainly describe his reaction to that one difficult-fanatical officer as more... indulgently amused than anything else.
 
Misting said:
I guess there's not an actual reason to think so, just paranoid thinking on my part. How old is Pantsaa? If they are old enough to have been around at the time in question, then it's probably fine. Otherwise, at the very least I would not be surprised to learn that the "greatness" of the Great Library is exaggerated in the same way the cultural hatred for the Condors et al is. Do the Toads have access, and yet are allied to the Pangolins without getting them in?

A lot of this is coming from my own musings as to the status of the Pangolins in the 7th path, before their isolation. Their scroll was hidden away, and the people guarding it were told that it could only be opened by a "chosen one". Yet, as Kagome said, it was just a locking seal, which implies that the ancestors of Hidden Mountain were lied to, not to mention the Tapirs, whose 7th Path counterparts are enemies of the Pangolins. Combined with the Condors apparently closing the pass, all of this suggests a multi-faction effort to shut down the Pangolins; this can't have come out of nowhere. I don't buy for a second that multiple clans did this with no prompting on the Pangolins part. And if the Pangolins are some sort of recognized threat, then what are their allies? The more I think about it, the more I worry that even the Toads could be implicated somehow.

Again, all of this is speculation, and we need to talk to Jiraya and get outside perspectives from other clans. I'm paraniod, and Pangolins are unreliable information sources with regards to the wider 7th path.
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Maybe the Pangolins were trying to destroy the Great Library, or purge any information within that didn't mesh with their propaganda? I can certainly see why the other summon clans would want to prevent that.
 
Why would the Pangolins stage this great betrayal in the first place? Turning the Condors from beloved ally to hated enemy is the result, but the Pangolins seem to have followed that up with centuries of staring at each other resentfully, not war. I would only expect a move like this from the Pangolins if they thought they could immediately wage war on the Condors and win, but instead we see the two clans stay relatively balanced until present day.

Was it a Pangolin miscalculation? Did they betray the Condors just to find that the Condors aren't as weak as they thought? Were the Condors somehow less useful to the Pangolins as an ally than as an enemy? If it was the Condors who betrayed the Pangolins, what reason did they have to turn a strong ally into a great enemy too strong to just subjugate?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was fabricated by a third party with the intention of driving a wedge into Pangolin/Condor relations, it's starting to look like the only set of motives that doesn't hilariously backfire.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
the Pangolins seem to have followed that up with centuries of staring at each other resentfully, not war
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eaglejarl said:
The Toad agent paused to look at the muffin and shook his head, croaking a chuckle. "You, baking. Takes me by surprise every time. You've gotten awfully domestic since the war, old friend. What happened to the Scaled Terror that I remember?" He took another bite, eyes rolling back in gustatory delight.
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I'm pretty sure there was a war, though it may have been a different one.
 
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