Hazou/Kagome learned seals by reading Jiraiya's notes. QMs stated that having his theory notes to work from significantly reduced the difficulty.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Hazou/Kagome learned seals by reading Jiraiya's notes. QMs stated that having his theory notes to work from significantly reduced the difficulty.
Likely part of the notes is what Jiraiya knew by experiencing infusion or by experiments. And the notes only partly reduce the difficulty.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think we can staple a "Leaf University" on top of the existing educational system before anything else, really.
New Genin are required to attend for a semester before doing field missions and after that they rotate between training/taking classes and field missions on a trimester basis.
Initially we'll have a small class of civilians that are only there to learn medical stuff, sealing theory or useful stuff like that but we can expend things as we get more infrastructure.
If we coordinate well and make a large portion of the courses very practically useful (training, jutsu development, tactics, field and practical exercises etc) this can potentially reduce fatality rates by a large amount due to better trained soldiers.
We can make things flexible and remove a lot of the useless bulk that someone might typically associate with "university" courses. You can have a decent course take like 6 weeks if it meets every day or so and is meant to impart practical knowledge.
The above of course doesn't apply to Sealing or Medicine because those are serious business (and no way in hell is Hazou going to speak about how to teach the later efficiently).
I feel like you're making an assumption on how important actual sealing experience is. If it works like Arcane Chakrapunk Computer Science like we think it does, then its a moot point.
There are styles in things that may seem super formulaic like proof writing or writing code. But a for loop is a for loop, a proof by induction is just that, and there wouldn't be common names for Sealing crap like a "Fujikawa node" or whatever Sealing gibberish Kagome spouts if these weren't generalizable things you can use in many scenarios because "This is how they interact with the rest of the seal to do what you want."
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I don't think it works like programming? It's more like building a steam engine.
No, I don't find that likely. The majority of the work is making the internal logic of the seal run correctly. The notes describe that logic.
Kagome can figure out how a Locking Seal works by studying it's logic (via the patterns of ink). He certainly didn't do anything involving infusions there. Same thing for research notes, but the theory is explicitly explained by the person who created it.
Experiments are just correctly infusing and activating the seal to make sure that it does what you wanted. Strictly speaking, you can debug on paper, it's just much more tedious. Infusion failures aren't part of successful experiments.
They took seals that were solidly out of Hazou's league and made them merely moderate projects for him. That's great in my book.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
On the topic of civilians doing sealing research, I would think that the main reason that sealmasters all have different sealing styles is because the way they infuse seals is different. Civilians can't infuse seals anyway, so it seems to me that they should be able to just learn Hazou's sealing style, and he doesn't even have to translate their notes into his own style.
Does anyone else have any other ideas for why sealmasters have different styles? I would assume that if my idea is correct, then it should be perfectly feasible for us to think up training civilians in an identical style, but nobody would have done it before because training a ninja in someone else's style gives you a 'crippled sealmaster who can't even infuse seals,' plus no one really thinks about civilians the way we do. I wouldn't be surprised if most ninja consider civilians to be less intelligent than ninja overall, certainly not people who you would want to teach sealing to.
Another thought is that the average sealmaster is probably very very young. Kagome and Jiraiya are the extreme exceptions to this rule. Ninja die young, and sealmasters even more so. This might not however, be the case for civilian seal-theorists. Assuming that sealing failures don't usually target those who are simply involved in the research, civilian seal-theorists could live to a rather ripe old age, much older than almost any sealmaster (other than exceptions, like Jiraiya and Kagome). This, plus the fact that much fewer of them would be plagued by the paranoia or other mental issues that old sealmasters have, would make even one (old) civilian seal-theorist extremely valuable for seal research.
Edit:
Also note that most sealmasters don't spend all their time on seal research. Even Jiraiya doesn't, although that's because he spends it on intrigue and other ninja things, rather than just making tons of explosives like Kagome and most other sealmasters. Civilians would spend every working moment on the RESEARCH part, making them extremely specialized and thus become very good at it much faster than usual.
Does anyone else have any other ideas for why sealmasters have different styles? I would assume that if my idea is correct, then it should be perfectly feasible for us to think up training civilians in an identical style, but nobody would have done it before because training a ninja in someone else's style gives you a 'crippled sealmaster who can't even infuse seals,' plus no one really thinks about civilians the way we do. I wouldn't be surprised if most ninja consider civilians to be less intelligent than ninja overall, certainly not people who you would want to teach sealing to.
Another thought is that the average sealmaster is probably very very young. Kagome and Jiraiya are the extreme exceptions to this rule. Ninja die young, and sealmasters even more so. This might not however, be the case for civilian seal-theorists. Assuming that sealing failures don't usually target those who are simply involved in the research, civilian seal-theorists could live to a rather ripe old age, much older than almost any sealmaster (other than exceptions, like Jiraiya and Kagome). This, plus the fact that much fewer of them would be plagued by the paranoia or other mental issues that old sealmasters have, would make even one (old) civilian seal-theorist extremely valuable for seal research.
Edit:
Also note that most sealmasters don't spend all their time on seal research. Even Jiraiya doesn't, although that's because he spends it on intrigue and other ninja things, rather than just making tons of explosives like Kagome and most other sealmasters. Civilians would spend every working moment on the RESEARCH part, making them extremely specialized and thus become very good at it much faster than usual.
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IIRC, infusion failure explicitly lower difficulty more than successful infusion.
It's like the difference between understanding chemistry and mixing chemicals.
A theoretical chemist can do stoichiometry and write out reaction sequences to synthesise the molecule they want. That's the seal logic.
Mixing the chemicals together to try to make those reactions happen is the infusion.
The thing is, having Hazou synthesise the molecule he wants is a lot easier if he had a team of theoretical chemists (who've never even touched a beaker themselves) working out the correct sequence of reactions for him. All Hazou needed to do was have a steady hand and a good eye, so that he could mix the chemicals right.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Also the theoretical complexity required to shitcheck someone elses work vs. coming up with something complicated like that (like a particular synthesis for a drug or something) is way easier and less time consuming.
I think we're getting too deep into speculative analogies without confirming it for sealing.
Well, he's already the elementary wilderness survival instructor.
Adorable eight-year-old:
"Today professor Kagome taught us how to turn stinker trespassers into candles!"
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
It doesn't really matter.
The point is: If its at all scientific and doesn't literally work off of Chaos Magic or something, then having more computational power to throw at it will make things easier.
It just unfortunately happens that our only accessible version of "computational power" is a bunch of decently smart people with a GED and a few chalkboards, instead of like, "Yamanaka-linked-Mori Supercomputer no Jutsu!" or something.
Yet, growth mindset.
Don't chakra threads allow puppeteers to transfer chakra and jutsu? That seems expandable. We just need to develop appropriate chakranet transfer protocols.
- Location
- Yes.
Only to human puppets IIRC. Though personally that would be changed in MfD as it seems ridiculously overpowered.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I think we need to cut the middleman of all these "scientific innovations" and "industrialization", and instead reach directly for a Global Victory:
We need to suborn the Mori Voice, use it to take control of ChakrAI, then tell it to optimize the world.
(Step One is, obviously, to marry Ami.)
We need to suborn the Mori Voice, use it to take control of ChakrAI, then tell it to optimize the world.
(Step One is, obviously, to marry Ami.)
- Location
- Yes.
Why is Ami necessary, when we already have access to the Mori Voice?
We should marry Keiko instead.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
*shrugs*
No idea.
True!
Two Mori are better than one.
...
*Mari-smirk*
I sort of agree to be honest, but theres medium hanging fruit that can be done before then that would make the process easier.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
I see no way this could possibly go horribly wrong.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Ami is apparently able to just bully the Mori Voice around. She'll allow us to start in-depth research of its mechanics much sooner, with less risk. Also, she'll be able to acquire for us information about the Mori Clan's own top-secret research projects, unlike Keiko who is no longer part of the clan.
Keiko will be pursuing another avenue of research, namely interactions of the Mori Voice with the Nara bloodline, and eventual takeover of the Nara Clan. Similarly, she'll be able to get us information on their research projects.
Imagine it, we'll have detailed notes on two intelligence-related bloodlines!
Edit: Ohh, and we could capture Anna and use her for the most dangerous of experiments! Keiko the theoretician, Ami the practitioner, Anna the fodder! That's perfect.
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- Location
- US
If we want Force Wall barriers on the outside of the facility, 30 will cover all of the surfaces, walls and ceiling (leaving a door sized gap on the front). That is 60 seals (each Wall is a pair).
For safety, we can place 5SBd strips over the exposed Force Wall seals: 1 set for ceiling seals, 4-8 sets for Roof Edge seals (depending on availability of a 5SB susceptible right edged solid). Add one for the safe inside...
50 seals (10*5)
Each buried goo trap costs 1 (or 2) Force Wall, 1LBF, one Goo Bomb. 5-7 seals per section.
We want the walls and ceiling of at minimum the cell block to be safe, so we can get prisoners counted.
We start with 30 Force Walls, 20 5SB, 17 LBF, and 9 Jiraiya Goo Bombs in our inventory.
We don't need more 5SB (ignoring our Pangolin debt until the event is over - which I think is covered outside our inventory already)
We have enough Force Walls for building defense (unless the paint 5SB route works, in which case these are surplus)
We need a lot of GooBombs, LBF, and Force Walls, if we want to do the buried goo bombs. I think these are already on the docket?
We should come up with a specific shaping strategy for trapped area, if we want Shikamaru to group a contingent in one spot.
My favored is a strip that goes down 24 m from the front door (the safe path) and then spreads out to cover a 16x36 m box
That is 6+4x9 sections = 42 sections, requiring 42 more Force Walls, 25 more LBF, and 33 more Goo Bombs. That is 167 seals to draw.
Is that feasible? We can significantly reduce the outer box down to, say, 8x20, for only 6+2x5 = 16 sections. Much less to draw, potentially giving us time to draw other back-up seals.
And sleep.
Edit. Only 16 sets requires us to draw 16 Force Walls, and 7 Goo Bombs (39 seals) + whatever backup stuff we want (more of any of these)
For safety, we can place 5SBd strips over the exposed Force Wall seals: 1 set for ceiling seals, 4-8 sets for Roof Edge seals (depending on availability of a 5SB susceptible right edged solid). Add one for the safe inside...
50 seals (10*5)
Each buried goo trap costs 1 (or 2) Force Wall, 1LBF, one Goo Bomb. 5-7 seals per section.
We want the walls and ceiling of at minimum the cell block to be safe, so we can get prisoners counted.
We start with 30 Force Walls, 20 5SB, 17 LBF, and 9 Jiraiya Goo Bombs in our inventory.
We don't need more 5SB (ignoring our Pangolin debt until the event is over - which I think is covered outside our inventory already)
We have enough Force Walls for building defense (unless the paint 5SB route works, in which case these are surplus)
We need a lot of GooBombs, LBF, and Force Walls, if we want to do the buried goo bombs. I think these are already on the docket?
We should come up with a specific shaping strategy for trapped area, if we want Shikamaru to group a contingent in one spot.
My favored is a strip that goes down 24 m from the front door (the safe path) and then spreads out to cover a 16x36 m box
That is 6+4x9 sections = 42 sections, requiring 42 more Force Walls, 25 more LBF, and 33 more Goo Bombs. That is 167 seals to draw.
Is that feasible? We can significantly reduce the outer box down to, say, 8x20, for only 6+2x5 = 16 sections. Much less to draw, potentially giving us time to draw other back-up seals.
And sleep.
Edit. Only 16 sets requires us to draw 16 Force Walls, and 7 Goo Bombs (39 seals) + whatever backup stuff we want (more of any of these)
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
170 Seals * 5 mins per seal = 14 hours.
We are likely already making a big pile of LBF and Goo bombs in the retroactive update.
We need a lot of LBF to trap the perimeter though so I'm not sure. We likely have to spend the rest day making explosives and LBF's solely for that.
Instead of trapping the entire safe path, we might have to do the front half and then spread out into a box (as you suggest). Maybe not as large as you'd like either.This should cut the seals down significantly.
Keep in mind we may have to traverse through this again if we have to evac and return from behind enemy lines. Otherwise solid.
All else equal this should knock like 6 or so of them out at least, and also prevent any more from easily crossing the path.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Probably a good idea. It wouldn't hurt to get started anyway. We will still be in the break day, right?
There are a few things we want to do during the break, but otherwise we're probably going to proceed to battle right away.