Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Vacuum Step does not function if there is an object between you and the target location. Also, there are no Wind Clones, which would be necessary to do so.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Australia
Okay lets make up some numbers.
I am going to assume Genin are paid the same as a normal labourer would be for doing the do the work but get it done much faster (and thus have a higher pay per hour). Leaf takes it's cut so 20 ryo is about what a labourer earns in a day. A labourer in Konoha will earn more then other places in Fire (but will also have a higher cost of living because ninja and skilled professionals drag prices upwards).
Let's assume that a normal labourer in Fire gets 10 ryo a working hour (in terms of wealth not necessarily cash). Well assume that 70% is used for farming and surivival. 15% is taken as taxes and 15% is used for discretionary spending / emergency funds. (These numbers change if the Sage genetically engineered the crops)
We can roughly compare this to medieval china / england. There are a lot less ninja then there are knights but ninja are also massively more effective and come from a limited pool (increasing ninja prices compared to samurai and peasants.) I don't think there is anyway to reconcile this in a manner where ninja aren't earning more than nobles so I won't try. Congratulations ninja you effectively rule the world in all but name though admittedly they were doing that before with just the threat of their military power. (Possible exception where traditional ruler keeps multiple ninja villages and none of them rebel out of fear that it will cause retaliation from the others. This is a contrived situation which is unlikely to remain stable for long).
The way I view it the nobles get taxes. That money goes the Leaf Village and is used to subsidise or pay for missions involving killing hostile chakra beasts, bandits, national protection and other measures that help keep the tax revenue flowing.
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- Location
- Europe
Alright, but I think we can conclude that at least with these numbers it's confirmed that there are chunnin (rank) among the ANBU, because
12 dead ANBU + 1 wounded Nakamura + (let's say not completely two dozen) 20 ANBU would be more than half of all Jonin in Leaf and I assume that at least the majority of the Clan heads are Jonin ,Hiashi very likely and duh the Jonin Commander himself. If only Jonin could be ANBU then a lot of known people would have just died (probably true, but 12 at the same time is huge).
In conclusion: Leaf has probably more people with Jonin skills but both Clans and the village fuge the numbers for reasons.
Yeah fuck ninja missions. Fuck licences, gambling is where the money is.
- Location
- Australia
er that shouldn't that be missions are paid by the Village AND by civilians. Ninja's still get paid for taking missions for the village (such as the recent courier mission) their families still have to eat and pay rent when they get home.
Along those lines, there should be S-Rank missions as well, in a lot of cases that is just the Bounty posted in the bingo book.
One important point is missions that require ninja talents but no risk are all rank D. Impersonate someone? Rank-D, Dig a canal? Rank-D, Find a cat? Rank-D.
Re: Cost of living, I think the economy only makes sense if you account for the Students and Genin Ninjas either live with their families or get free board at the barracks.
Tax Rate
The Chinese Market Economy, 1000–1500, By William Guanglin Liu
The Chinese Market Economy, 1000–1500
Puts the 1200s Chinese farmers tax rate at around 10%, but also that households were ranked 1-5 on income/size and paid variable rates. A wealthy clan estate like we have... would have been an effective 45% rate.
Cannon Costs
- 30 ryo was enough for Naruto to enjoy his afternoon
- Kiba has completed 21 D rank missions over three years.
- Location
- Yes.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
- Location
- Australia
I think it makes more sense that ninja are paid a retainer because even off-duty they are still expected to spend a lot of their productive time training.
- Location
- Australia
Are they though? Seems like the kind of system that would self-correct if they didn't improve their skills.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That's a good point, I was approaching this from a Capitalist-bias.
- Location
- Australia
Ninja work isn't entirely predictable. Ninjas that don't train a lot would probably just stay as mediocre chuunin and do low risk missions. You also want every ninja you can get because you are in an arms race with every other village.
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
random idea:
Could Noburi sign one of the two summoning scrolls in our little clan? He's certainly got the chakra for it and would probably enjoy the uniqueness factor.
Could Noburi sign one of the two summoning scrolls in our little clan? He's certainly got the chakra for it and would probably enjoy the uniqueness factor.
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Fair point. There seems to be evidence that Toads at least are OK with more (in canon at least). Jiraiya + Naruto/Minato. Perhaps we should ask.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
AFAIK Summoning Scrolls allow only one user.
That said, I just realized something.
(It is at this atemporal moment that Jiraiya feels a shudder going down his spine and resolves to never let Hazou be team leader to anyone but his own team)
That said, I just realized something.
Hazou can be a sensei to some cute precocious little killers.
(It is at this atemporal moment that Jiraiya feels a shudder going down his spine and resolves to never let Hazou be team leader to anyone but his own team)
Things to consider:
1. What is the "clan percentage" that ninja have to turn over to their clan to keep it funded and in return get all the support that a clan provides? There isn't a single answer to this, since each clan will have its own arrangements and they will vary by mission rank, seniority, age, and whether the clan is providing housing. But certainly for Hazou, an adolescent who is still living at home (clan housing) he ought to have to turn over at least half his mission income to the clan.
2. The Ninja Village may serve as an intermediary between civilians who wish to hire ninja but do not have the cash to pay for missions. Classic example, a reasonably prosperous farming village needs a major chakra beast infestation put down, but they can't easily afford an A-rank mission for multiple ninja. So they pledge a portion of their harvest to Leaf for X period as food income, and Leaf then pays the ninja actually doing the work.
Spitting some numbers out to see how they might work:
5000 Ryo, with the 2 day duration not too strictly enforced. (That is, if a mission bumps over to 3 days because of unforseen events it doesn't automatically get upgraded.) That takes you halfway to earning enough money for 10,000 sheets of seal-quality paper. It's also about the rate for a couple of days of bodyguard work with no recommendation in the Iron price list.
Greater time and also considerably greater risk. Add a x5 multiplier for the greater skill and a x10 multiplier for the time, and you get 100,000 Ryo.
Take a B-rank and add a x5 multiplier, and say 500,000 Ryo. A ninja can probably described "the A-rank mission that paid for this house". This is a truly staggering cost, especially if you have to hire multiple ninja (but most A-rank jobs are solo missions).
On the question of, "does this make economic sense", remember that you have a lot of discretion in controlling the frequency of missions as well. Taking a string of A-rank and B-rank missions could make a lot of money for a ninja, but ninja also have to spend a lot of time training and recovering and the risk of A-rank and B-ranks is significant. Trying to maximize your income is a good way to die, as even most jounin can have a bad day and roll low or get unlucky.
Also, there may simply be a limited pool of A-rank and B-rank missions available, as not many institutions or people can afford the costs. You can't simple take these numbers and plot a ninja's income assuming they spend 365 days a year doing A-rank missions.
- Location
- Australia
Good quality alcohol is probably expensive as well.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hahahaha I'm pretty sure she was drinking hooch.
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
Proposed topic:
How could we augment Jiraiya's combat effectiveness?
How could we augment Jiraiya's combat effectiveness?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Develop a Mobile Combat Suit of seals with LBF triggers for him.
e: Sorry QMs, we Gundam now.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Develop seals that can be activated at a distance
- Location
- Europe
Make a Wakahisa barrel version that can be carried by someone else and keep it's chakra? (unless that already works) Suddenly 650 CP more for Jiraiya, yay more toads.
We could ask him why he isn't using the hiraishin. Sentimentality aside.
Maybe Jiraiya want's some Kagome rings for himself ? For his birthday maybe?
Maybe the paired seal idea can make this happen? At least over short distances I would hope.
Also we could try to make a handseal trigger mechanism via the casino seals.
Radvic Econ Analysis
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
@Velorien @OliWhail @eaglejarl I present to you, in hopes of 10 XP and being a bit helpful:
Radvic's Analysis of Plausible Economics in Leaf
Disclaimer: Not an economist by any fashion. Doing some voodoo magic here.
Disclaimer: Not an economist by any fashion. Doing some voodoo magic here.
Abstract: We want to assign cost of living and pay rates for missions. So, let's throw some ballpark numbers around. First, we'll define a variable X from which to base our economic assumptions off of. Second, we will determine how much of this variable is likely available to fund ninja missions. Third, we will determine the relative costs of ninja missions based off their risk factors. Finally, we will solve for X using information given in the quest to determine the costs of missions.
Extra Disclaimer: now, we know that to say Medieval economies operated via "money" is to entirely misunderstand their system (see Manorialism). That said, we're going to do it anyways and just say "Marked for Death is different than medieval economies because magic." With pesky reality out of the way, we can proceed to generating numbers and variables making entirely anachronistic capitalist assumptions. I'll note that the presence of a "merchant council" indicates that these assumptions may have some merit into how MfD works.
Defining X
So, farmers are unlikely to ever see any money in Marked for Death. Why? Because likely, they live in land owned or "protected" by ninja or councils or mayors, or Daimyos, or whatever, and they just keep enough food to survive, and wear rags and stuff they make themselves in their free time. This is pretty similar to our experience in the village in Iron.
Ok, but there are more than just peasant civilians in Marked for Death - they've got a whole medieval structure and a few cities. So, let's look at what's probably the lowest non-peasant class, and most common group in cities, and primary provider of value. Skilled laborers. We'll assume there's some labor classes, e.g. Blacksmiths, florists, sandal-makers, butchers, bakers, etc. There's likely a range of pay depending on the work and skill, but I wouldn't expect it to span more than one order of magnitude. So, let's assign our base money unit X to be "a generic skilled laborer's daily take-home pay." This means that X should be enough to 1) pay for daily food for at least 2 people (children assumption), 2) pay for clothing, 3) pay for a portion of a dwelling (we'll say 50% - assuming that each hovel has 2 skilled laborers paying for it). We'll calculate this value at the end, after relating it to ninja mission pay.
Calculating available Mission Funding
Now, let's estimate how many skilled laborers there are in Fire. We know that Konoha has ~30,000 residents. We also know there are ~1,500 ninja. Presumably, there are also some farmers, bureaucrats, and miscellaneous officials who don't provide goods/services but live in the city. So, let's estimate there to be ~25,000 skilled laborers. This puts us at 25000 X per day for "goods produced in Konoha." Let's assume that there is effectively a 10% overhead which will eventually go to pay for ninja missions. This puts "funding provided for ninja missions by Konoha alone" at ~2500 X per day.
Now, we also know that there are other cities in Leaf. Specifically, there are three, each around 20,000 residents. If we assume 18,000 of each of those are "skilled laborers", this adds an additional 52,000 X per day into the economy, and 5,200 X per day into the ninja fund (Assuming 10% ninja rates).
More generally, we can calculate the ninja fund available by using the formula:
Number_Skilled_Laborers x Percentage_Spent_on_Ninja
Which, in this case is:
77,000 x 0.10 = 7,700
So, this means that the total funding to hire ninja missions in Leaf winds up being ~7700 X per day. This is spread out across ~1,500 ninja. This means that the "average" ninja will make ~5 times what a skilled laborer makes, though this is misleading since the majority of ninja are genin. It seems we are in the right ballpark though, so let's continue.
Numbers of Missions Hired
Now, with a way to relate skilled labor (i.e. cost of living) to ninja funds, let's look at missions.
D-rank. This seems to be just unskilled labor available to people who want it. It's unclear to me why a civilian would hire a ninja to do work they can get the local street urchin to do for a fraction of the price, but I guess if you want to show off your wealth, this is probably a good way to do it. Cost is 20 ryo/hour/ninja. I'd imagine that this is paid for by individual shops and citizens, and so will not assume the funding comes from the 7,700 X per day ninja fund.
C-rank. These missions are necessary for intra-country trade, which is likely a thing many skilled labor shops will want. For instance, if they need to go to a guild meeting at a neighboring town, or want to deliver wares, they'll need a C-rank. If skilled laborers want to harvest materials, they may need a C-rank mission to get an escort. I'd imagine most merchant shops need about one every year. We'll further assume each merchant shop is 5 laborers, and that they can often share resources with 10 of their neighbors. This means we'll need a number of C-ranks a year = #laborers/50 = 77,000 / 50 ~ 1540 C ranks / year.
B-rank. These missions are necessary for inter-country trade, which a minority of skilled labor shops will likely want. Other instances of a B-rank mission would be to deal with problems of ninja or chakra beast origin (e.g. a supply point is inhabited by chakra beasts, ninja are suspected to have done something nefarious to a merchant). Most likely, a guild or collection of shops would want to be able to have cash saved to hire a B-rank mission if needed. I'd expect that guilds pay for this via a membership fee. Like insurance. So, let's assume each collection of 100 merchant shops will have the funding to purchase 1 B-rank a year. This means we'll need a number of B-ranks a year of #laborers/100/5 = 77,000 / 500 ~ 154 B ranks / year.
A-rank. These missions are necessary for starting new ventures in new areas with chakra beasts, long term exploratory caravanning, or harming foreign merchants/guilds. I'd expect most established guilds have the funding to purchase one or two A-ranks a year, as they aren't normally needed, but are probably needed whenever expanding. We'll say an established guild is a collection of ~500 merchant shops, and they need one mission every two years. This means we'll have a number of A-ranks equal to #laborers / 500 / 5 = 77,000 / 2,500 ~ 30.8 A ranks / year.
So. According to these assumptions, this means that D-ranks are likely self-funded by affluent skilled laborers, and assumes that C, B, and A rank missions are funded via a 10% membership fee of skilled laborers by their guild. This means that we have a cash inflow of 7700 X per day to pay for 1580 C ranks, 158 B ranks, and 31.6 A ranks each year. So, multiplying 7700 X by 365 to get the yearly funds, we find that the civilians can afford:
~2,800,000 X monies for 1540 C ranks, 154 B ranks, and 30.8 A ranks. So, we now have a formula relating cost of living (X) to mission costs for C, B, and A rank missions.
2800000X = 1540C + 154B + 30.8A
Ninja Mission Relative Cost (risk) Assessment
Our next task is to assign relative costs between C, B, and A rank missions.
Now, given that there are ~1,500 ninja, spending the time to actually achieve all of these missions is likely relatively simple. This means that we'll want to measure the cost in ninja lives, not in ninja time. So, let's estimate risk. The risk for a C rank mission seems like it should be around 1% risk of loss of life - it's either fighting civilians or normal chakra beasts, but normally just escorting and not really doing anything Risk pretty much only comes from misfiled or misidentified C ranks. No ninja combat is to be expected. As the risk of a B rank mission is equivalent to a C-rank that lasts 2 weeks instead of 2 days, let's say instead of a 99% chance of survive, ninja have a (99%)^7 chance of survival. So, a 93.2% chance of survival. This means the risk for a B rank mission is ~7% risk of loss of life. Finally, A rank missions are likely individually specked out, but, if we assume ninja combat is likely, we'll assume a 50% chance of loss of life. So, if we look at things from the mess of survival expectancy above, we can expect a 50% chance of ninja death with either 70 C rank missions, 8 B rank missions, or 1 A rank mission. Obviously, the ninja you send on the mission will matter greatly for survival ratings, but we're just doing ballpark estimates, so these numbers should be roughly right.
So, this indicates at the cost to ninja is approximately 70C = 8 B = 1 A
Plugging this into our equation above for cost of living to ninja missions, we find:
2800000X = 1540C + 154 (8.75 C) + 30.8 (70 C)
2800000X = 5043.5 C
C ~ 555 X
B ~ 4857 X
A ~ 38862 X
So, we would expect one C rank mission to be approximately 600 day's skilled labor daily pay, One B rank mission to be approximately 4,900 day's skilled labor daily pay, and one A rank mission to be approximately 38,900 day's skilled labor daily pay.
Converting to Ryo
Now, we just need to figure out what an average skilled laborer is paid, and we can answer the question proposed. So, let's look at costs of items. We know that ingredients for one loaf of bread costs 30 ryo, and a gallon of honey costs 1,000 ryo, and a copper kettle costs 150 ryo in Iron. Assuming the value of the ryo is relatively similar in Leaf, it seems reasonable to assume a skilled laborer could purchase approximately 5 loaves of bread a day. Obviously, that's not what they're going to spend their money on, but it should be enough to buy a day's food for 2 people (~3 loaves of bread), and have a reasonable chunk of cash left over to pay for things like rent, clothing, and guild fees. This means one day's skilled labor is 150 ryo.
So, X = 150 ryo
C ~ 555 (150 ryo)
C ~ 80,000 ryo
B ~ 4857 (150 ryo)
B ~ 700,000 ryo
A ~ 38862 (150 ryo)
A ~ 5,800,000 ryo
Conclusion
So with the above order of magnitude assumptions, the cost of living at a humble civilian skilled laborer level (i.e. hovel & low quality food) is ~ 150 ryo per day in Leaf, C rank missions should pay ~ 80,000 ryo, B rank missions should pay ~ 700,000 ryo, and A rank missions should pay ~ 6,000,000 ryo. Feel free to use the above formulas with different input values for things like number of skilled laborers, ninja overhead percentage, mission risk assessments, or daily skilled laborer pay to refine values.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
He does it all!! Economics, physics, what'll the madman pick up next? Molecular chemistry? Quantum physics???
Great analysis.