- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's not a limit for Hazō since he's boosting Int anyway for Sealing. It only serves as a disadvantage to NPCs.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Shhhhh! ...oh wait, you're a QM. Carry on then
Rihaku
The Internet
Every specialty-type Skill will mathematically have that effect at low levels due to the cost curve. To be fully cognizant of a Skill's implications one needs to extrapolate the cost curve into jounin levels, at which point your analysis starts to break down.
More importantly, you are not factoring in the total Attribute cost of the Skill because Hazou already has 20 INT. To fully utilize Steely Presence one needs two Skills (Deception or Diplomacy + Steely Resolve), both of which have x2 instead of x3 primary Attribute requirements. This is extremely relevant; the cost difference between x2 and x3 is huge. A specialty Skill with such Attribute requirements should be as powerful or more powerful than the base Skill.
If you calculate the actual cost of Steely Resolve for someone with a normal Attribute distribution, it wouldn't make sense to buy the Skill above beginner rank. Hazou's advantage is him cashing in on the investment of massive INT which so far has gone only towards supporting one Skill.
Precendent for Skills of equal cost-efficiency already exist in Roki and Deal-Making, the primary difference here is that Steely Presence has a broader purview of applicability in exchange for more expensive upfront requirements.
As a meta-note, when Hazou's mechanical situation is already so bad, it does not behoove the playerbase to argue for less mechanical power, especially publicly. That the playerbase has papered over Hazou's extremely inefficient build by fully exploiting a single Black Swan invention (Skywalkers) and making plans that consist of "avoid ALL potentially dangerous social interaction" does not change that fact.
1 x INT might make sense, but the Skill would need to be considerably more powerful in that case. 1 x INT, 4 x COMP, 4 x DEX is comparable to Sealing's Attribute requirement, so the Skill would have to be as useful as Sealing from a versimilitude-balance perspective. 1 x INT skills (Sealing, Technique Hacking, Summoning, Med) are the most versatile and powerful in the setting.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hm... what if it was Resolve x 3 instead of Composure x 4? That would still, mostly, fit the constraints of the fluff, but it would also make it more expensive to raise and less joined to other already-used attributes. I mean, let's be real, Hazou's always gonna have enough Dex and Int to use it well, it needs some form of tax.
He'll be surprised the team thought of it, when he finds out a month in advance.
Rihaku
The Internet
Anyway, the point is, the mechanical system strongly incentivizes multiple-discipline focus on Skills with similar Attribute profiles and strongly penalizes ninja who spread out too much. Hazou has done the latter in one of the most mechanically punishing ways possible, by taking three different foci with three different primary Attributes - Taijutsu, Sealing, and Deception. This requires him to level almost every single Attribute and dump a massive amount of XP into Intelligence.
Intelligence costs 2*Level XP, skills cost 1*Level XP. Simplified, if you have 300 XP to put into Sealing, 2/3rds (200 XP) goes into INT and 1/3rd (100 XP) into Sealing. A character at this point can double his power by taking another INT x 1 Skill and raising it to the level of Sealing (100 XP).
The character at 400 XP has twice the power of the character at 300 XP. This is the payoff the character receives for dumping 2/3rds of his XP into a trait with no mechanical effects besides serving as a pre-req (the Attribute). The character's build is massively inefficient before the payoff stage and only becomes rational after the payoff stage. If there is no payoff stage the character is just mechanically inferior by a significant margin to others of his XP total.
Hazou absolutely should not be punished for raising his Attributes to their current levels. That would defeat the entire purpose of this mechanical intervention, which is to create a Skill for Hazou's payoff stage. Ideally that Skill has a purview that expands the number of scenes the players feel safe voting for and the GMs enjoy writing. If the Skill is too weak, players still won't feel safe voting for those types of scenes.
We could use Technique Hacking or MedKnow as the payoff Skill instead, but that leads to more scenes of the same type - Hazou sitting alone doing research, but with a different flavor of Mad Science.
Intelligence costs 2*Level XP, skills cost 1*Level XP. Simplified, if you have 300 XP to put into Sealing, 2/3rds (200 XP) goes into INT and 1/3rd (100 XP) into Sealing. A character at this point can double his power by taking another INT x 1 Skill and raising it to the level of Sealing (100 XP).
The character at 400 XP has twice the power of the character at 300 XP. This is the payoff the character receives for dumping 2/3rds of his XP into a trait with no mechanical effects besides serving as a pre-req (the Attribute). The character's build is massively inefficient before the payoff stage and only becomes rational after the payoff stage. If there is no payoff stage the character is just mechanically inferior by a significant margin to others of his XP total.
Hazou absolutely should not be punished for raising his Attributes to their current levels. That would defeat the entire purpose of this mechanical intervention, which is to create a Skill for Hazou's payoff stage. Ideally that Skill has a purview that expands the number of scenes the players feel safe voting for and the GMs enjoy writing. If the Skill is too weak, players still won't feel safe voting for those types of scenes.
We could use Technique Hacking or MedKnow as the payoff Skill instead, but that leads to more scenes of the same type - Hazou sitting alone doing research, but with a different flavor of Mad Science.
- Location
- floating away
It already does have a cost though, which is some of the silly amount of xp we have and will continue dumping into intelligence.
- Location
- USA
Fully agree with Rihaku here. Punishing someone for...choosing skills that match their attributes... is a very strange sort of system balance. To say "that only limits the NPCs not Hazou" basically says you're reshaping the world to monitor one character rather than making a system to apply to every character that comes along. Kludging something that narrowly targets Hazou would seem to risk that if we ever reroll or get a new recruit (like Kagome or Akane, if this was earlier) they might well end up finding the skills even cheaper for them because of how it worked out. It also basically says "this would've been fine if we made it at the start, but now that you've sunk XP we can't let you have it." Which penalizes any further attempts to expand the system.
I've just never entirely understood this argument with character design. Somehow in the pursuit of balance you are being told "you shouldn't make choices that work well for you, you should be choosing bad things for fairness sake." Its coming at character creation from a different angle really. Instead of "make a character you want to play, so make a character based on the choices" you should only ever be doing "make a narrative character then slap on whatever fits closest, even if they end up a pale shadow of the intent because you didn't do any homework first". Very emotional over rational...
Or maybe I'm just excessively exaggerating EagleJarl's complaint about Hazou not being limited by anything INT based and projecting past arguments onto it.
I've just never entirely understood this argument with character design. Somehow in the pursuit of balance you are being told "you shouldn't make choices that work well for you, you should be choosing bad things for fairness sake." Its coming at character creation from a different angle really. Instead of "make a character you want to play, so make a character based on the choices" you should only ever be doing "make a narrative character then slap on whatever fits closest, even if they end up a pale shadow of the intent because you didn't do any homework first". Very emotional over rational...
Or maybe I'm just excessively exaggerating EagleJarl's complaint about Hazou not being limited by anything INT based and projecting past arguments onto it.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'll note that this wasn't a complaint but a comment.
e:
Also, it's less "punishing for choosing skills that match their attributes" and more "wariness of the fact that players would naturally choose attributes to match their character for a skill they made up"
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- Location
- ...Nice try.
Oki doki loki. I've updated @Veedrac's list of QM rulings and put into a Google Doc here. I've enabled universal commenting permissions and will be reasonably generous with enabling editing permissions so it stays gorram current.
This opens up drudgework. In my head, the workflow goes something like this:
This opens up drudgework. In my head, the workflow goes something like this:
- Isolate some element.
- Compile our current understanding in one place.
- Cross item off list.
- Run it by QMs. I anticipate contradictory rulings, miscommunications, decisions that never got communicated or communicated elsewhere, decisions that nowadays break all the things, etc.
- Put it into the wiki
- KEEP EVERYTHING UPDATED
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I am dubious of, from a mechanics design PoV, the idea of creating an ability to fit exactly the purpose you intend while also giving it nonsensical (or at the very least, highly questionable) stat requirements that are tailored to the character.
I do get that the system is flawed in that it punishes certain types of builds. But this can probably be, if not remedied, at least ameliorated in our case by learning Technique Hacking and/or getting a summoning scroll. In general though, trying to "patch" the problem may introduce more issues than it solves, and it probably isn't so bad that it requires another mechanics overhaul.
I have a proposal that basically just alleviates some of the pain of needing both Diplomacy and Deception by leveraging IN in a manner similar to Roki, except with the bonus applied to Diplomacy like Deal Making. This takes the lower of the stat requirements of both Diplomacy and Deception and also requires some Wits to maintain the charade in real-time. This, IMO, is a pretty straightforward application of the Iron Nerve to Diplomacy (as for instance was borne out by Hazou's aunt) and does not deviate strongly from established mechanics.
Take 3:
---
Skill Proposal: Duplicity
Restrictions:
When making a Diplomacy check, you may first roll Deception + Duplicity against the target's Deception.
If successful, the target buys the act, and you may add half your Deception skill to Diplomacy, rounded down, for the remainder of the conversation.
If unsuccessful, the target may be put off slightly by the attempt, or in extreme cases take offense.
Class A failure on the initial check prevents the substitution.
Class B failure also adds a penalty of -3 dice to any further Diplomacy against the target for the duration of the conversation.
Class C failure adds a penalty of -5 dice.
I do get that the system is flawed in that it punishes certain types of builds. But this can probably be, if not remedied, at least ameliorated in our case by learning Technique Hacking and/or getting a summoning scroll. In general though, trying to "patch" the problem may introduce more issues than it solves, and it probably isn't so bad that it requires another mechanics overhaul.
I have a proposal that basically just alleviates some of the pain of needing both Diplomacy and Deception by leveraging IN in a manner similar to Roki, except with the bonus applied to Diplomacy like Deal Making. This takes the lower of the stat requirements of both Diplomacy and Deception and also requires some Wits to maintain the charade in real-time. This, IMO, is a pretty straightforward application of the Iron Nerve to Diplomacy (as for instance was borne out by Hazou's aunt) and does not deviate strongly from established mechanics.
Take 3:
---
Skill Proposal: Duplicity
Restrictions:
- Presencex2, Manipulationx2, Composurex3, Witsx3
- Requires Iron Nerve
- Cannot be leveled higher than Diplomacy or Deception
When making a Diplomacy check, you may first roll Deception + Duplicity against the target's Deception.
If successful, the target buys the act, and you may add half your Deception skill to Diplomacy, rounded down, for the remainder of the conversation.
If unsuccessful, the target may be put off slightly by the attempt, or in extreme cases take offense.
Class A failure on the initial check prevents the substitution.
Class B failure also adds a penalty of -3 dice to any further Diplomacy against the target for the duration of the conversation.
Class C failure adds a penalty of -5 dice.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
*sees Lore Update votes*
*triggered*
Ok, so I'm going to write a plan. Things I expect to include in my plan are:
*triggered*
Ok, so I'm going to write a plan. Things I expect to include in my plan are:
- Continue reading
- Comments on Condor mission
- Advice for Keiko
- Brainstorm ideas for interactions with team (with suggestions for actions)
- Prepare speech outlines for use when Jiraiya shows us off to people
- Loyalty speech
- Civilian prosperity speech
- Useful invention speech
- Non-lethality speech
- Read Books
And no nukes, sir!
Things to consider:
- Ask Kei: with all else equal, would she prefer to be in the J-clan or the Nara clan?
- If Kei prefers to be a Nara:
- Would she prefer to be adopted or married?
- Ask J: is marriage to Shikamaru on the table?
- Ask J: is adoption by Shikaku on the table?
- If Kei prefers to be in Jiraiya's clan:
- Ask J: Is "Nara Keiko" Shikaku's final offer, or do we have room to renegotiate here? If there's room to renegotiate, what might he accept instead?
I was serious before about a real discussion with Kagome. He can't evade on his home village forever. Konoha needs to know where he's from and what they will think if they hear he's turned up alive. Talk it over with Mari first and then maybe approach Kagome together.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
This in particular rubs me wrong. I'm not exactly sure what you meant here, but taking a literal reading --
No, we definitely shouldn't seek to compromise integrity of communication to influence meta level considerations.
I don't think it's conducive to a healthy player/GM relationship for players to avoid making certain types of arguments so that the GMs won't be aware of them, or for fear of GMs ruling in favor of things that aren't maximally beneficial to players in the hopes that we might get something better by "holding out". Like, this just screams out to me as a prime example of the type of antagonistic player/GM relationship that should be avoided at all costs.
Much better imo is to just accept GM vision on mechanics and try to work within the framework laid out. Not saying at all that we shouldn't complain if something is perceived as being broken, unfair, nonsensical, suboptimal, etc. Just that trying to subvert GM intentions in this way is not even close to desirable.
Our QMs are reasonable folks. If we make good arguments, for instance, as to why Hazou should be able to leverage his Int stat for another useful skill besides Sealing, I'm pretty sure they'll be receptive to that, given the idea makes sense given existing considerations.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
100% with you here
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
For something that has a higher attribute tax than Roki would hope that it wouldn't have negative penalties associated with it
Edit: The entire point of @Rihaku suggestion is to find a way to leverage Int. If we can't find a way to do it in social we should probably just go down Technique Hacking, MedKnow or Summoning.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That's not a penalty, really. Like Roki, it only gives a bonus limited to half Deception.
- Location
- Yes.
@Radvic You probably want to add another section about Akane. Since we're back, and word of our existence is going to come out, Akane will no longer be in the "non-clan and political nobody" group. She's going to be in the "we can go to influence her and then use that against Clan Jiraiya" group.
Without suggesting another killbox situation I would highly recommend we ask Jiraiya to set safeguards for her sake.
Without suggesting another killbox situation I would highly recommend we ask Jiraiya to set safeguards for her sake.
- Location
- ?
If balance vs NPCs is a concern, QMs could give legit Kurosawas a less stat-demanding version of the thing, since unlike Hazou they won't be inventing thing from scratch, but rather will have had generations to build it up/learn the most efficient way to leverage IN for communication.